Being attacked is not a license to kill indiscriminatly. To manage to kill 8 civilians and would 14 others must mean either they shot back in a very crowded area, or they were specifically targetting anything that moved. Neither of them is acceptable. 22 casualties is a very high number for a 'security' (aka defense) squad.
Hearts and minds?
As I understand it, the US has rules in place with Iraq making them exempt from Iraqi criminal prosecution, which is one reason they're so resented.
Those who are closer to the situation are welcome to correct me if I've heard wrong.
How in the hell can you tell how they reacted? Maybe the civilians were collateral damage and an unavoidable casualty of a firefight in a crowded civilian area...but maybe not. The fact that your experience makes you sympathetic to the soldier's viewpoint does not mean they didn't screw up somehow.
In any case, I'm not sure it matters who is "right" here...it's a political issue. Mowing down civilians, even if it was completely unavoidable, is the kind of thing that will make the conflict in Iraq take just that much longer. While you may dismiss the importance of winning the hearts and minds of the civilians in Iraq, that is the ONLY way we're going to achieve "victory" there. And killing civilians only hurts that cause, whatever kind of rationalization there is for it.
Edit: I'm not saying soldiers and mercenaries shouldn't be able to defend themselves, but when they do and don't (or can't) avoid civilian casualties, there HAS to be some sort of consequence, if only to make the Iraqis feel like we don't think they are expendable. And in the longer term, as urban warfare becomes a larger part of what the armed forces are called on to do, I don't think throwing up your hands and saying "oh well, them's the breaks" is an acceptable way to deal with combat in crowded urban areas.
I'm sue the Bush administration has not said anything to the Iraqi government pressuring them to keep those laws.
Governments love having unpopular laws for foreign militias running around outside their laws.
Its all about cooking the number so that DumbYa's Iraqi Adventure does look so bad. :thumbsdown:
DumbYa's Secret Army...
DumbYa's Secret Army...
This could be just the last straw after a series of incidents. They may not have the same priorities with regards to minimizing civilian casualties.
Hopefully we will get to hear an account from an actual participant.
I'm glad that you spend much time here in P&N, because if you were ever in the army it would surely be the end of humane & justice.
Blackwater USA
This is not just a problem with the contractors. There have been a number of incidents of a similar nature in Afghanistan with our troops, when shot at or a roadside bomb explodes, the response is to shoot in all directions, especially targeting anyone running away.
Sounds justified to me NOT.
Sounds justified to me NOT.
DangerAardvark
Diamond Member
- Oct 22, 2004
- 7,559
- 0
- 0
Oh, I wouldn't call it fear. I'd call it a state of priapism for dead brown people.
Anyway, mercs have their place. But it's not in Iraq.
Lemon law
Lifer
- Nov 6, 2005
- 20,984
- 3
- 0
Originally posted by: palehorse74
Remember, a "dead civilian" is sometimes nothing more than a dead terrorist whose friends were quick enough to hide the weapon...
That does not work too well when the civilian dead starts to include very small children and obvious non-combatants.
Face the facts, this was simply a case where no rules of engagement allowed the indiscriminate firing into crowds. And blackwater was sending the message don't mess with us. And yes, witnesses did report they were firing indiscriminately into crowds.
Its the type of behavior one expects from terrorists and not from anyone responsible. Their mission was to protect the lives of certain government officials they were moving from point A to point B. If they come under fire, their job then becomes to retreat and detour around the fighting.
Remember, a "dead civilian" is sometimes nothing more than a dead terrorist whose friends were quick enough to hide the weapon...
That does not work too well when the civilian dead starts to include very small children and obvious non-combatants.
Face the facts, this was simply a case where no rules of engagement allowed the indiscriminate firing into crowds. And blackwater was sending the message don't mess with us. And yes, witnesses did report they were firing indiscriminately into crowds.
Its the type of behavior one expects from terrorists and not from anyone responsible. Their mission was to protect the lives of certain government officials they were moving from point A to point B. If they come under fire, their job then becomes to retreat and detour around the fighting.
palehorse
Lifer
- Dec 21, 2005
- 11,521
- 0
- 76
Lemon - Where'd you learn your React-To-Ambush TTP's? Counterstrike? And when did you decide to take it upon yourself to dictate those TTP's to some of the best trained soldiers in the world? I'm just curious...
I just love the fact that everyone is out to prosecute the blackwater guys, but nobody has said the same about the tangos who actually ambushed them from within the crowds. Even the Iraqi officials who commented have not mentioned going after the REAL bad guys, not even once during this entire debacle have the terrorists themselves been targeted...
You people are more interested in sticking it to The Man, than in prosecuting actual bad guys, aren't you?!
sick..
palehorse74 said:
Translation:
People died. We don't care very much. We're not going to do anything about it. We'll talk to some lawyers so we can make sure our ass is covered. It's too important to make sure these contractors get a boatload of taxpayer funds to go out and play weekend warrior with the Iraqi people.
To the Iraqis, Blackwater is the US, and the US is Blackwater. What this group and others like it are doing is beyond the C&C of the US military, but you can be damned sure that US soldiers and marines are paying the price in the form of commensurate increases in RPGs, IEDs, etc.
Translation:
People died. We don't care very much. We're not going to do anything about it. We'll talk to some lawyers so we can make sure our ass is covered. It's too important to make sure these contractors get a boatload of taxpayer funds to go out and play weekend warrior with the Iraqi people.
To the Iraqis, Blackwater is the US, and the US is Blackwater. What this group and others like it are doing is beyond the C&C of the US military, but you can be damned sure that US soldiers and marines are paying the price in the form of commensurate increases in RPGs, IEDs, etc.
Sean McCormack, the assistant secretary of state for public affairs, is a little light on facts, or at least ones he's willing to share.
Sounds like McCormick was trained by Gonzo-Gonzales. He doesn't know much about a job he was hired to preform and own a memory that lacks the lucidity to remember what it is he was hired to know. The problem isn't necessarily with lemmings like McCormick. It lies with the lack of oversight that was spoon-fed to Bush by the GOP for the better part of seven years.
Anyone doing a "skim" of investigantion into these shadowy "contractors" knows they are the "second army" in Iraq that are better paid then our "normal troops" for the same risks. They, like the "normal troops", are not held accountable for the deaths they cause. Only the contractors, don't even have to go through the formalities of being charged with murder as the "normal troop"s are.
That their contracts are paid-for like the "normal troops" by you and me, we, apparently, have no right to know who they are, what they do, or when they'll begin their own "post surge" downsize.
Oh, and apparently, the Iraqis are just as sick of them as they are of us
Sounds like McCormick was trained by Gonzo-Gonzales. He doesn't know much about a job he was hired to preform and own a memory that lacks the lucidity to remember what it is he was hired to know. The problem isn't necessarily with lemmings like McCormick. It lies with the lack of oversight that was spoon-fed to Bush by the GOP for the better part of seven years.
Anyone doing a "skim" of investigantion into these shadowy "contractors" knows they are the "second army" in Iraq that are better paid then our "normal troops" for the same risks. They, like the "normal troops", are not held accountable for the deaths they cause. Only the contractors, don't even have to go through the formalities of being charged with murder as the "normal troop"s are.
That their contracts are paid-for like the "normal troops" by you and me, we, apparently, have no right to know who they are, what they do, or when they'll begin their own "post surge" downsize.
Oh, and apparently, the Iraqis are just as sick of them as they are of us
palehorse
Lifer
- Dec 21, 2005
- 11,521
- 0
- 76
you, and several others, completely missed my point.
I'll spell it out: many times, when the press reports on an incident in Iraq, or the Iraqi government discusses an incident, the "civilians" they describe are actually dead bad guys. But, since they ALL wear civilian clothes, they are often counted as "innocent civilians."
That was my fvckin point, and anyone who has been there knows what I'm talking about.
I'll try to use smaller words to make it easier for you do keep up from now on...
Now, does anyone here actually care about catching and prosecuting the ACTUAL BAD GUYS WHO AMBUSHED OUR AMERICAN BRETHREN?! I didn't think so... you're all too busy gloating about Blackwater getting pie in their faces!
Brovane
Diamond Member
- Dec 18, 2001
- 6,372
- 2,578
- 136
So far everything that I have read seems to be very cut and dry in regards to this incident. Blackwater was escorting State Department employees and they were ambushed. Blackwater security employees responded to the ambush and unfortunately there was collateral damage which happens often when you have a firefight with automatic weapons in a urban environment. Unfortunately the US military is stretched so thin that they have to use private security firms like Blackwater to provide security for state department employees. Not the best situation but unfortunately the situation in Iraq requires that State Department employees have armed security and the US military doesn't have the manpower resources so private security is paid to provide this protection. It appears like everybody is ready to blame Blackwater when all the facts are not known about this incident.
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