Blackwater mercs drew weapons on the U.S. Army.

techs

Lifer
Sep 26, 2000
28,559
4
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http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21163806/site/newsweek/

Oct. 15, 2007 issue - The colonel was furious. "Can you believe it? They actually drew their weapons on U.S. soldiers." He was describing a 2006 car accident, in which an SUV full of Blackwater operatives had crashed into a U.S. Army Humvee on a street in Baghdad's Green Zone. The colonel, who was involved in a follow-up investigation and spoke on the condition he not be named, said the Blackwater guards disarmed the U.S. Army soldiers and made them lie on the ground at gunpoint until they could disentangle the SUV. His account was confirmed by the head of another private security company.


Really, the Army should have introduced Blackwater headquarters to the business end of an Abrams.

EDITITED NOV. 12 TO INCLUDE THE FOLLOWING:

New Evidence That Blackwater Guards Took No Fire
By JAMES GLANZ
This article was reported by James Glanz, Richard A. Oppel Jr. and Michael Kamber and written by Mr. Glanz.

BAGHDAD, Oct. 12 ? Fresh accounts of the Blackwater shooting last month, given by three rooftop witnesses and by American soldiers who arrived shortly after the gunfire ended, cast new doubt Friday on statements by Blackwater guards that they were responding to armed insurgents when Iraqi investigators say 17 Iraqis were killed at a Baghdad intersection.

The three witnesses, Kurds on a rooftop overlooking the scene, said they had observed no gunfire that could have provoked the shooting by Blackwater guards. American soldiers who arrived minutes later found shell casings from guns used normally by American contractors, as well as by the American military.

The Kurdish witnesses are important because they had the advantage of an unobstructed view and because, collectively, they observed the shooting at Nisour Square from start to finish, free from the terror and confusion that might have clouded accounts of witnesses at street level. Moreover, because they are pro-American, their accounts have a credibility not always extended to Iraqi Arabs, who have been more hostile to the American presence.

Their statements, made in interviews with The New York Times, appeared to challenge a State Department account that a Blackwater vehicle had been disabled in the shooting and had to be towed away. Since those initial accounts, Blackwater and the State Department have consistently refused to comment on the substance of the case.

The Kurdish witnesses said that they saw no one firing at the guards at any time during the event, an observation corroborated by the forensic evidence of the shell casings. Two of the witnesses also said all the Blackwater vehicles involved in the shooting drove away under their own power.

The Kurds, who work for a political party whose building looks directly down on the square, said they had looked for any evidence that the American security guards were responding to an attack, but found none.

?I call it a massacre,? said Omar H. Waso, one of the witnesses and a senior official at the party, which is called the Patriotic Union of Kurdistan. ?It is illegal. They used the law of the jungle.?

Many of the American soldiers were similarly appalled. While Blackwater has said its guards were attacked by automatic gunfire, the soldiers did not find any casings from the sort of guns typically used by insurgents or by Iraqi security forces, according to an American military official briefed on the findings of the unit that arrived at the scene about 20 minutes after the Blackwater convoy left. That analysis of forensic evidence at the scene was first reported Friday by The Washington Post.


The official, who spoke on the condition of anonymity because he was not authorized to speak about the matter, added that soldiers had found clear evidence that the Blackwater guards were not been threatened and also opened fire on civilians who had tried to flee. ?The cartridges and casings we found were all associated with coalition forces and contractors,? the official said. ?The only brass we found where somebody fired weapons were ones from contractors.?

The case has angered many in the military who believe that the conduct of the security guards makes the troops? jobs harder. ?If our people had done this,? another American military official said, ?they would be court-martialed.?

The shooting, on Sept. 16, and the deaths of two Iraqi women in a shooting by a different security company on Tuesday, have provoked anger at politically potent levels of Iraqi society. In the holy cities of Karbala and Najaf, officials affiliated with Iraq?s most revered Shiite cleric, Grand Ayatollah Ali al-Sistani, called for sanctions against the companies.

In Karbala, a spokesman for the ayatollah inveighed against ?the cheapening of Iraqi blood? and called for Parliament to take action. In a legacy of orders handed down during post-invasion American rule here, Western contractors essentially have immunity to Iraqi law.

None of the roughly two dozen witnesses previously interviewed by Iraqi investigators said that they saw or heard anyone but the Blackwater guards fire during the shooting, which Iraq says killed 17 and wounded 27. Still, because nearly all of those witnesses were in the field of fire, their accounts could conceivably have been skewed by the terror and confusion of the moment.

The Kurdish witnesses on the rooftop said they had not been interviewed by Iraqi investigators. They said they had been visited by American investigators, but had not been fully interviewed.

After the shootings, American soldiers found plenty of empty bullet casings 7.62 millimeters in diameter. Had the 7.62-millimeter casings been from an AK-47 rifle, a common insurgent and Iraqi police weapon, they would have been 39 millimeters long. Had they been from a PKC machine gun, another common Iraqi weapon, they would have been 54 millimeters long. The soldiers did not find any of those, the military official said.

Instead, the official said, the casings were 51 millimeters long, the length used by NATO weapons, including the M-240 machine gun, a standard automatic weapon used by the America military and American security contractors, the official said. The soldiers also found empty 5.56-millimeter casings of the type used by the M-4 and M-16 rifles that American troops and contractors bear.

The F.B.I. has been interviewing soldiers from the unit that responded to the scene, the Third Battalion of the 82nd Field Artillery Regiment, which is part of the Second Brigade of the First Cavalry Division, to collect information in its investigation of the shooting, the official said.

Only one of the Kurdish witnesses, a guard who would give his name only as Sabah, saw the first shots fired by the Blackwater guards into a white sedan, killing a man and his mother and setting the events in motion.

Two others, Mr. Waso and his driver, Sirwan Ali, went to the roof after the shooting started and observed long enough to see the Blackwater vehicles leave the square. Eventually both went down to help the victims, they said. All three men have military backgrounds.

When asked if anything had occurred to provoke the initial shots from Blackwater, Sabah said: ?Nothing at all. No mortars. No shooting.?

All he saw, Sabah said, was that the white sedan ?moved a little bit and they started shooting.?

As events unfolded and the Blackwater guards unleashed a storm of gunfire into the crowded square, Mr. Waso and Mr. Ali both said, they could neither hear nor see any return fire. ?It was one-sided shooting from one direction,? Mr. Waso said. ?There wasn?t any return fire.?

Mr. Waso said that what he saw was not only disturbing, but also in some cases incomprehensible. He said that the guards kept firing long after it was clear that there was no resistance. People were shot while trying to flee, he said. One man ran from a Volkswagen and the guards shot him in the head from behind, Mr. Waso said.

Finally there was a pause of a few seconds in the shooting as the Blackwater convoy prepared to leave, he said. Then, Mr. Waso said with a look of disbelief on his face, at least one Blackwater guard began firing again, this time at a red bus full of people on the western rim of the square.

?The glass was all broken,? Mr. Waso said, struggling to describe the bus after the firing resumed. ?Women and children, all of them were shouting and crying.?

Some of the people who survived in the bus were tended to later at the Patriotic Union of Kurdistan building, he said.

After that last burst of gunfire in the square, Mr. Waso said, all four of the Blackwater vehicles left. As far as he could see, they drove away under their own power, he said.

In the end, Mr. Waso said, he went down and asked Iraqi national guard soldiers to chase the Blackwater team.

?Leave them and try to follow that company before they get away,? Mr. Waso said he told a soldier. ?They killed innocent people for no reason.?

Reporting was contributed by Wisam A. Habib, Ahmad Fadam, Qais Mizher and Alissa J. Rubin.



 

techs

Lifer
Sep 26, 2000
28,559
4
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Originally posted by: eits
quote the paragraph where the guy says "we're fucking security. we make our own rules." or whatever.


Here ya go:

One military contractor, who spoke anonymously for fear of retribution in his industry, recounted the story of a Blackwater operative who answered a Marine officer's order to put his pistol on safety when entering a base post office by saying, "This is my safety," and wiggling his trigger finger in the air. "Their attitude was, 'We're f---ing security; we don't have to answer to anybody'."
 

Aimster

Lifer
Jan 5, 2003
16,129
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Sucks for these guys. They are getting paid good in Iraq.

I bet when they are done with Iraq nobody will hire them because Blackwater will not look good on their resume.

GOOD.
 

Nebor

Lifer
Jun 24, 2003
29,582
12
76
The Army shouldn't have backed down. They have guns for a reason. They should have responded to BLackwater's threats with deadly force.
 

maddogchen

Diamond Member
Feb 17, 2004
8,903
2
76
"But the law would also require the FBI to establish a large-scale presence in Iraq in order to investigate accusations against private contractors.....Also, whenever FBI agents venture into Iraq now they are guarded by ... Blackwater operatives. "
LOL
 

techs

Lifer
Sep 26, 2000
28,559
4
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Originally posted by: maddogchen
"But the law would also require the FBI to establish a large-scale presence in Iraq in order to investigate accusations against private contractors.....Also, whenever FBI agents venture into Iraq now they are guarded by ... Blackwater operatives. "
LOL

But, But....being in a market in Iraq is just like being in a market in Indiana.......
And anyway, "the insurgency is in its last throes.......




YHPM

Senior Anandtech Moderator
Common Courtesy

 

alchemize

Lifer
Mar 24, 2000
11,486
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Most if not all of these guys are ex special forces, which would probably explain their attitude towards "regular" soldiers. Doesn't excuse it, assuming it's true.
 

Narmer

Diamond Member
Aug 27, 2006
5,292
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I wonder if any here would've thought differently had there been a fire-fight.
 

Hayabusa Rider

Admin Emeritus & Elite Member
Jan 26, 2000
50,879
4,268
126
It didn't happen in America. No American court has jurisdiction over this matter.
 

ayabe

Diamond Member
Aug 10, 2005
7,449
0
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Who is running this circus side show?

Eventually if you couple this sort of cowboy bs behavior with documented reports of BW people firing on our soldiers and there's going to be a full blown firefight one of these days.

 

Genx87

Lifer
Apr 8, 2002
41,091
513
126
Bah open fire on them, though I think lots of these guys are special forces so it may not end well for the regular US soldiers :(

 

maluckey

Platinum Member
Jan 31, 2003
2,933
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Maybe it's just Blackwater? I have almost no experiences with Blackwater, but the other security firm guys I deal with are far lower key than the ones in the above article. We've asked them to move their vehicles from our line of approach/departure, denied them use of entrances to some AO's while our team was working, and other such inconveniences. For the most part they gripe about it, but they all seem to realize that they're civilians, and we're not.

I just don't see the shenanigans with the security guys that the Blackwater guys are supposedly doing.

Anyone have FIRST-HAND experiences with Blackwater want to add something?
 

Harvey

Administrator<br>Elite Member
Oct 9, 1999
35,057
67
91
The TRAITOR IN CHIEF has his own private armada. Blackwater founder, Erik Prince, contributed hundreds of thousands of dollars to the Bush campaign and, in return, got their multi-million dollar no bid contracts.

They're better paid and better armed than our own troops, and arrogant doesn't begin to describe their attitude. What scares me most is what they could do on our own soil. :shocked:

All the forces of war were compelling,
And blacker than Colin, the Knight,
And the lies they were telling, they sell in the name of their savior.

And they silence the voices arising,
From those who would show us the light,
With their guys with their spies in the skies watching you and your neighbor.

And Who's Watching Over Who's Watching Over You?

Tell me who's telling you what to do what to do?
 

JD50

Lifer
Sep 4, 2005
11,899
2,805
136
Originally posted by: Harvey
The TRAITOR IN CHIEF has his own private armada. Blackwater founder, Erik Prince, contributed hundreds of thousands of dollars to the Bush campaign and, in return, got their multi-million dollar no bid contracts.

They're better paid and better armed than our own troops, and arrogant doesn't begin to describe their attitude. What scares me most is what they could do on our own soil. :shocked:

All the forces of war were compelling,
And blacker than Colin, the Knight,
And the lies they were telling, they sell in the name of their savior.

And they silence the voices arising,
From those who would show us the light,
With their guys with their spies in the skies watching you and your neighbor.

And Who's Watching Over Who's Watching Over You?

Tell me who's telling you what to do what to do?

Yet you constantly bitch and moan about military spending....:confused:

 

Nebor

Lifer
Jun 24, 2003
29,582
12
76
Originally posted by: Hayabusa Rider
It didn't happen in America. No American court has jurisdiction over this matter.

You're exactly right. That's why I can't fathom why the American soldiers didn't fire on them.
 

OutHouse

Lifer
Jun 5, 2000
36,410
616
126
I hope the soldiers who surrendered got a royal ass chewing on the old mans carpet while he cut a few stripes off their sleeves. what an embarrassment to themselves , their unit and the American army.

the BW goons who did this and all the other crap that hey have been doing should be barred from the green zone and Iraq. don't the Generals run the show anymore?
 

ayabe

Diamond Member
Aug 10, 2005
7,449
0
0
Originally posted by: JD50
Originally posted by: Harvey
The TRAITOR IN CHIEF has his own private armada. Blackwater founder, Erik Prince, contributed hundreds of thousands of dollars to the Bush campaign and, in return, got their multi-million dollar no bid contracts.

They're better paid and better armed than our own troops, and arrogant doesn't begin to describe their attitude. What scares me most is what they could do on our own soil. :shocked:

All the forces of war were compelling,
And blacker than Colin, the Knight,
And the lies they were telling, they sell in the name of their savior.

And they silence the voices arising,
From those who would show us the light,
With their guys with their spies in the skies watching you and your neighbor.

And Who's Watching Over Who's Watching Over You?

Tell me who's telling you what to do what to do?

Yet you constantly bitch and moan about military spending....:confused:

Hardly anyone complains about paying soldiers more. I think the main rub is investing in things we don't need or "wasting" money because of stubbornness.

I.e. missile defense, bunker buster nukes, etc.

And for what it's worth, I believe it costs about 6-8 times are much to keep a contractor in Iraq for a year than it would an enlisted sergeant.

We are subsidizing an entire private army, their employees are trained at taxpayer expense for the most part being ex military and all. Then we are paying outrageous sums to have them do the same job they did in when they were in. All of this of course filling the coffers of the big money people behind it all.

Sorry, but that is wasteful and socialism in it's purest sense.
 

StageLeft

No Lifer
Sep 29, 2000
70,150
5
0
Originally posted by: Aimster
Sucks for these guys. They are getting paid good in Iraq.

I bet when they are done with Iraq nobody will hire them because Blackwater will not look good on their resume.

GOOD.
So the company reforms, its contractors go elsewhere, no big deal.

The Army shouldn't have backed down. They have guns for a reason. They should have responded to BLackwater's threats with deadly force.

If this story is even true, they obviously backed down because they were outnumbered/outgunned. I still don't think they should have, but then I wasn't there, so...

I find this terrible, but why if this happened a year ago, we're probably missing something.

 

Harvey

Administrator<br>Elite Member
Oct 9, 1999
35,057
67
91
Originally posted by: JD50
Yet you constantly bitch and moan about military spending....:confused:

Show me where I complained about military spending. I've complained plenty about the TRILLIONS of dollars your TRAITOR IN CHIEF and his gang of murderers and traitors have squandered in their war of LIES in Iraq.

FYI, Blackwater mercenaries are paid thousands of times more than most of our real troops while those same troops are sold short and sold out for adequate body and vehicle armor, training and other necessities of battle and adequate medical care for returning vets while they remain out of control by any competent legal jurisdiction for the crimes they commit.

Ignoring the illegality of the mission in Iraq for the moment, we could accomplish far more by spending that money on enlisting, training, equipping and caring for our REAL military personnel, instead of lining the pockets of a bunch of out of control, shoot-em-up cowboys.
 

Lemon law

Lifer
Nov 6, 2005
20,984
3
0
I think this just spotlights the fact that the US should not be using private mercenaries. Period. Since the laws are written to make them immune its beating a dead horse to prosecute, so just cut the crap off now, cancel the contracts, for any and all US taxpayer financed security firms.

Consider it another bad idea from GWB&co. Don't cry over spilled milk, learn the lesson, and just give them the ole heave ho.

There is no way to reform what amounts to a bad idea gone predictably bad.
 

Stoneburner

Diamond Member
May 29, 2003
3,491
0
76
Originally posted by: Hayabusa Rider
It didn't happen in America. No American court has jurisdiction over this matter.

Not necessarily true. In fact, this is probably wrong especially if both parties are american citizens.
 

palehorse

Lifer
Dec 21, 2005
11,521
0
76
Originally posted by: Aimster
Sucks for these guys. They are getting paid good in Iraq.

I bet when they are done with Iraq nobody will hire them because Blackwater will not look good on their resume.

GOOD.
I know some genuinely decent veterans who work for Blackwater, and do so with courage and integrity every day. Condemning each and every one of them, based on your media-derived perception of them, is disgusting.

Just as with everything else concerning Iraq, 99% of you do not have a clue about Blackwater beyond the fabricated talking points you hear on CNN.

As for this particular alleged incident, dealing with those specific operators, I would have shot the idiots.