Blackwater mercs drew weapons on the U.S. Army.

[palehorse]

Originally posted by: Lemon law

Originally posted by: techs
Apparently Palehorse74 is unaware that both an Iraqi government report AND a US Army investigation have conclued that the Blackwater mercs were unprovoked and killed the Iraqis with no cause.
I saw it on the 60 minutes interview with the head of Blackwater. He did not deny this. He says we should wait for the Justice Department report.
So I guess the US Army is not good enough for Blackwater. Only some government beauracrats can truly judge Blackwater.
I guess he never met Palehorse74

Surely you are not talking about whitewash palehorse74? After all he was not there but he alone can judge.

ohhhh, the hypocrisy is thick with this one! Most have you have already, in your minds, tried, convicted, and tied the rope for every Blackwater employee in Iraq!

Whatever happens Lemon, don't let due process, properly collected forensic evidence, or the concepts of innocent until proven guilty, or beyond a reasonable doubt, get in your way!!

OFF WITH THEIR HEADS!

:roll:

 

[Lemon law]

Now palehorse74 cuts to the chase by saying----ohhhh, the hypocrisy is thick with this one! Most have you have already, in your minds, tried, convicted, and tied the rope for every Blackwater employee in Iraq!

Whatever happens Lemon, don't let due process, properly collected forensic evidence, or the concepts of innocent until proven guilty, or beyond a reasonable doubt, get in your way!!

No palehorse74, no one thinks every blackwater employee is corrupt. What you are in denial about is the concept of blackwater and mercenaries period. Its no longer innocent until proven guilty, its a matter of getting all private militias out of the employ of the US taxpayer. ASAP. To pretend that blackwater is totally innocent until proven totally guilty
is where you are delusional. Its already well past that innocent after proven guilty reasonable doubt of guilty for quite a few blackwater employees.

The stonewall defense of Eric Prince just seals the deal when he say he will not even address the issue. Such an organization cannot be reformed nor should we think that there is any hope of reform. Absolute power corrupts absolutely. To say it again, get rid of private security contractors ASAP.

 

[palehorse]

Originally posted by: Lemon law
To say it again, get rid of private security contractors ASAP.

That's never going to happen. The best we can hope for is the installment of proper accountability and the expedited development of a decent Iraqi investigative team of some sort.

You may get to hang some contractors down the road - which should be enough to make you all giddy inside - but none of the previous incidents will result in anything more than a fine and a few operators getting canned.

As for doing away with security contractors altogether, we're wayyyy past the point of no return. Blackwater, and their work with the State Department, is a very small part of the larger picture - in terms of contractors. There is no chance in hell this would happen unless they institute a military draft to fill the gaping hole left by 100,000 contracted personnel - those who currently handle the majority of our convoys and other personal security details.

In other words, like I told you already, this isn't the Achilles' Heel you've been dreaming about. In a few weeks, the Left will need to find something new to fan the anti-war flames... don't worry, I have confidence that they'll figure something out, and you will all be able to adjust fire accordingly...

 

[Lemon law]

Don't be an idiot Palehorse74 by saying----There is no chance in hell this would happen unless they institute a military draft to fill the gaping hole left by 100,000 contracted personnel - those who currently handle the majority of our convoys and other personal security details.

There may be some 100,000 plus carpetbagging contractors in Iraq, but only a very tiny fraction of those are involved in security of any kind. Blackwater itself only employs a 1,000 or so.

 

[palehorse]

Originally posted by: Lemon law
Don't be an idiot Palehorse74 by saying----There is no chance in hell this would happen unless they institute a military draft to fill the gaping hole left by 100,000 contracted personnel - those who currently handle the majority of our convoys and other personal security details.

There may be some 100,000 plus carpetbagging contractors in Iraq, but only a very tiny fraction of those are involved in security of any kind. Blackwater itself only employs a 1,000 or so.

LOL.. I was off by a bit.. my bad!

There are an estimated 181 companies providing security-related services in Iraq. Of the roughly 182,000 contractors in Iraq, the estimates for those who are armed and working in security-related positions range from 20,000 to 48,000 persons (1.5 years ago!) - all depending on who you ask.

A Washington Post article of May 27, 2007, attributes estimates of 20,000 to 30,000 armed security contractors working in Iraq to the ?Pentagon and company representatives.?

The Government Accountability Office (GAO) reported in 2006 that the Director of the Private Security Companies Association of Iraq estimated that as of March 2006, there were a total of 181 private security companies with just over 48,000 employees working in Iraq.

Source

I still do not know where they'd find enough properly trained US military personnel to take their place...

 

[Stoneburner]

Originally posted by: palehorse74

Originally posted by: Lemon law
Don't be an idiot Palehorse74 by saying----There is no chance in hell this would happen unless they institute a military draft to fill the gaping hole left by 100,000 contracted personnel - those who currently handle the majority of our convoys and other personal security details.

There may be some 100,000 plus carpetbagging contractors in Iraq, but only a very tiny fraction of those are involved in security of any kind. Blackwater itself only employs a 1,000 or so.

LOL.. I was off by a bit.. my bad!

There are an estimated 181 companies providing security-related services in Iraq. Of the roughly 182,000 contractors in Iraq, the estimates for those who are armed and working in security-related positions range from 20,000 to 48,000 persons (1.5 years ago!) - all depending on who you ask.

A Washington Post article of May 27, 2007, attributes estimates of 20,000 to 30,000 armed security contractors working in Iraq to the ?Pentagon and company representatives.?

The Government Accountability Office (GAO) reported in 2006 that the Director of the Private Security Companies Association of Iraq estimated that as of March 2006, there were a total of 181 private security companies with just over 48,000 employees working in Iraq.

Source

I still do not know where they'd find enough properly trained US military personnel to take their place...

Since when does "properly trained" matter? Bush seems ready to send the boyscouts in.

 

[RichardE]

Originally posted by: ayabe

Originally posted by: JD50

Originally posted by: Harvey
The TRAITOR IN CHIEF has his own private armada. Blackwater founder, Erik Prince, contributed hundreds of thousands of dollars to the Bush campaign and, in return, got their multi-million dollar no bid contracts.

They're better paid and better armed than our own troops, and arrogant doesn't begin to describe their attitude. What scares me most is what they could do on our own soil. :shocked:

All the forces of war were compelling,
And blacker than Colin, the Knight,
And the lies they were telling, they sell in the name of their savior.

And they silence the voices arising,
From those who would show us the light,
With their guys with their spies in the skies watching you and your neighbor.

And Who's Watching Over Who's Watching Over You?

Tell me who's telling you what to do what to do?

Yet you constantly bitch and moan about military spending....

Hardly anyone complains about paying soldiers more. I think the main rub is investing in things we don't need or "wasting" money because of stubbornness.

I.e. missile defense, bunker buster nukes, etc.

And for what it's worth, I believe it costs about 6-8 times are much to keep a contractor in Iraq for a year than it would an enlisted sergeant.

We are subsidizing an entire private army, their employees are trained at taxpayer expense for the most part being ex military and all. Then we are paying outrageous sums to have them do the same job they did in when they were in. All of this of course filling the coffers of the big money people behind it all.

Sorry, but that is wasteful and socialism in it's purest sense.

On the contrary this is a pure form of capitalism where there is a market for services and a group that can fill that market. Military training needs to happen whether you are a dictatorship, democracy, communist, theocracy facist state ect ect, its a given. Capitalism put no rules on what you could do with state sponsores training besides harsher punishments as a civilian in assault casses it seems. There is no socialism here at all. All you see here is the beginning of a one of many traits that most empires have in common as a root of there downfall which is the use of outside forces, mercenaries (yes, that is what they are) being used in place of soldiers.

The people you hire are loyal to the dollar, a mentality given to them by a capitalist society. The people you want are loyal to your flag. ("The only country a capitalist is loyal too is the one he does business in") has never been more true.

As it stands, hopefully the US resolves this before it acts as a catalyst for other benchmarks most empires seem to hit before a decline.

 

[palehorse]

Originally posted by: Stoneburner

Originally posted by: palehorse74

Originally posted by: Lemon law
Don't be an idiot Palehorse74 by saying----There is no chance in hell this would happen unless they institute a military draft to fill the gaping hole left by 100,000 contracted personnel - those who currently handle the majority of our convoys and other personal security details.

There may be some 100,000 plus carpetbagging contractors in Iraq, but only a very tiny fraction of those are involved in security of any kind. Blackwater itself only employs a 1,000 or so.

LOL.. I was off by a bit.. my bad!

There are an estimated 181 companies providing security-related services in Iraq. Of the roughly 182,000 contractors in Iraq, the estimates for those who are armed and working in security-related positions range from 20,000 to 48,000 persons (1.5 years ago!) - all depending on who you ask.

A Washington Post article of May 27, 2007, attributes estimates of 20,000 to 30,000 armed security contractors working in Iraq to the ?Pentagon and company representatives.?

The Government Accountability Office (GAO) reported in 2006 that the Director of the Private Security Companies Association of Iraq estimated that as of March 2006, there were a total of 181 private security companies with just over 48,000 employees working in Iraq.

Source

I still do not know where they'd find enough properly trained US military personnel to take their place...

Since when does "properly trained" matter? Bush seems ready to send the boyscouts in.

In Iraq, in the red zone, it fvcking matters. And I'd rather fight side-by-side with the Boy Scouts than some of you...

 

[Red Dawn]

Originally posted by: palehorse74
And I'd rather fight side-by-side with the Boy Scouts than some of you...

Why not, you might learn a thing or two from a Boy Scout.

 

[Blain]

>> For that special lady in your life <<

 

[dyna]

Originally posted by: Lemon law
Lets examine the latest Eric Prince excuse for the latest incident on Video that has so outraged the Iraqis. Just minutes ago featured on 60 minutes.

But the Eric Prince contention is that everything is justified because a FEW shots were indeed fired at them. A contention even our military investigators deny.

I don't know about you, but in the USA, on our highways and byways, I frequently encounter military convoys. As a licensed driver with car insurance I have a right to those domestic highways and so do our military convoys. Suppose God Forbid, some crazed sniper starts taking pot shots at the motor vehicles. Something that in fact occurred on the very roads I drive on within the past year. Would then the same military convoy be justified in taking pot shots at ANY vehicle that has an equal right to be on the road? Killing perhaps an innocent me or some of my loved ones. Or even my likewise my fellow innocent Americans.

Even if shots were fired, would we tolerate that in the USA? I for one think not. Why should our standards be different elsewhere? But the Eric Prince standards is that any level of violence is not only permitted but advisable regardless of who is hit and regardless of the threat level.

If Eric Prince is so clueless as to come up with just that defense as even a partial justification, we should give him the ole heave ho ASAP. Just the defense alone demonstrates extreme moral bankruptcy.

In the 60 minute segment he made it very clear that they do mistakes and they regret them. And that they are far a few between, he cites some numbers, 16k successful missions. They also said they welcome more oversite and scrutiny from the US/Iraqi government so that there is less hearsay and inaccurate information getting passed around.

The incident that everybody is going nuts about, a bomb was set off directly in front of the building they were protecting and gunfire started. It was hardly the assassination of an unproked Iraqi.

 

[Stoneburner]

I wonder if the same people defending blackwater are the same people who defend OJ.

 

[dyna]

Originally posted by: Stoneburner
I wonder if the same people defending blackwater are the same people who defend OJ.

I wonder if the same people defending blackwater are the same people who didn't defend OJ.

 

[1EZduzit]

Originally posted by: Nebor
The Army shouldn't have backed down. They have guns for a reason. They should have responded to BLackwater's threats with deadly force.

Kind of like the ending of "Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid", huh.

 

[palehorse]

Originally posted by: Red Dawn

Originally posted by: palehorse74
And I'd rather fight side-by-side with the Boy Scouts than some of you...

Why not, you might learn a thing or two from a Boy Scout.

I'm a former Eagle Scout myself... The Boy Scout Law and US Army Values are very similar!

A Scout is trustworthy, Loyal, Helpful, Friendly, Courteous, Kind, Obedient, Cheerful, Thrifty, Brave, Clean, and Reverent.

Army Values: Loyalty, Duty, Respect, Selfless Service, Honor, Integrity, and Personal Courage.

 

[Lemon law]

Here dyna says---The incident that everybody is going nuts about, a bomb was set off directly in front of the building they were protecting and gunfire started. It was hardly the assassination of an unproked Iraqi.

No dyna, it was not the assassination of an unprovoked single Iraqi---the butcher bill was 17 unprovoked Iraqis in multiple vehicles not even close to the building. Blackwater personnel simply got out and shot at anything moving or not moving. It may not be as bad as the other 200 incidents blackwater has been involved in, but this time it was caught on camera and can't be denied.

You may be in denial, that does no does not mean the rest of us can't see the simple truth. Eric Prince and his company are out of all control, they hurt our occupation, they can't be reformed, and they need to go ASAP. We are talking my taxpayer bucks, and I say hell no. Blackwater is also operating on an expired permit, the Iraqis also say no
to blackwater, even our military agrees, and kind of end of story.

A blackwater hat is not a license to kill.

 

[chucky2]

Originally posted by: Lemon law
Here dyna says---The incident that everybody is going nuts about, a bomb was set off directly in front of the building they were protecting and gunfire started. It was hardly the assassination of an unproked Iraqi.

No dyna, it was not the assassination of an unprovoked single Iraqi---the butcher bill was 17 unprovoked Iraqis in multiple vehicles not even close to the building. Blackwater personnel simply got out and shot at anything moving or not moving. It may not be as bad as the other 200 incidents blackwater has been involved in, but this time it was caught on camera and can't be denied.

You may be in denial, that does no does not mean the rest of us can't see the simple truth. Eric Prince and his company are out of all control, they hurt our occupation, they can't be reformed, and they need to go ASAP. We are talking my taxpayer bucks, and I say hell no. Blackwater is also operating on an expired permit, the Iraqis also say no
to blackwater, even our military agrees, and kind of end of story.

A blackwater hat is not a license to kill.

Funny, but the interview I watched Charlie Rose conduct with Erik Prince last night painted a massively different picture than the "simple truth" you claim to see.

Why is no one asking why insurgents picked a crowded square full of their own civilians to attack a Blackwater detail with such sufficient fire as to have one of the Blackwater vehicles towed?

I don't know if CharlieRose.com has the whole interview for free, but after watching it, I get the feeling that this 17 civilians killed incident didn't go down near like the media and most of you are wishing it did.

Granted, Erik Prince has the interests of his company at heart, however after watching the interview with Charlie last night, he must be an astonishingly good actor to be the head of such as POS demonic company as Blackwater has been painted...

Chuck

 

[dyna]

Originally posted by: Lemon law
Here dyna says---The incident that everybody is going nuts about, a bomb was set off directly in front of the building they were protecting and gunfire started. It was hardly the assassination of an unproked Iraqi.

No dyna, it was not the assassination of an unprovoked single Iraqi---the butcher bill was 17 unprovoked Iraqis in multiple vehicles not even close to the building. Blackwater personnel simply got out and shot at anything moving or not moving. It may not be as bad as the other 200 incidents blackwater has been involved in, but this time it was caught on camera and can't be denied.

You may be in denial, that does no does not mean the rest of us can't see the simple truth. Eric Prince and his company are out of all control, they hurt our occupation, they can't be reformed, and they need to go ASAP. We are talking my taxpayer bucks, and I say hell no. Blackwater is also operating on an expired permit, the Iraqis also say no
to blackwater, even our military agrees, and kind of end of story.

A blackwater hat is not a license to kill.

I don't know if they are guilty or innocent. But 60 minutes showed video of the explosion, some of the blackwater vechiles riddle with bullet holes. And he explained the situation and that the shootings were taken out context. He said they regret any loss of innocent life. They have a perfect record protecting their assignments, this appeared to be their primary duty.

If them saying, that this was taken out of context, doesn't give you a shred of doubt abuot the allegations. I hope your never sitting on a jury.

 

[palehorse]

Originally posted by: dyna
I don't know if they are guilty or innocent. But 60 minutes showed video of the explosion, some of the blackwater vechiles riddle with bullet holes. And he explained the situation and that the shootings were taken out context. He said they regret any loss of innocent life. They have a perfect record protecting their assignments, this appeared to be their primary duty.

If them saying, that this was taken out of context, doesn't give you a shred of doubt abuot the allegations. I hope your never sitting on a jury.

Lemon Law, and those like him, are ready to hang every BW employee. The concepts of "beyond a reasonable doubt," or "innocent until proven guilty," are beyond them. They are much too consumed with the witchhunt to waste time with basic American ideals such as those.

Remember, civil liberties and justice are only relevant when it suits their agenda - and they honestly believe that they've discovered America's Achilles' Heel in Iraq... so they ain't letting go for anything!

 

[Red Dawn]

Originally posted by: palehorse74

Originally posted by: Red Dawn

Originally posted by: palehorse74
And I'd rather fight side-by-side with the Boy Scouts than some of you...

Why not, you might learn a thing or two from a Boy Scout.

I'm a former Eagle Scout myself... The Boy Scout Law and US Army Values are very similar!

A Scout is trustworthy, Loyal, Helpful, Friendly, Courteous, Kind, Obedient, Cheerful, Thrifty, Brave, Clean, and Reverent.

Army Values: Loyalty, Duty, Respect, Selfless Service, Honor, Integrity, and Personal Courage.

The same can't be said for the American Hessians AKA Blackwater, they're in it for the money. Like the Hessians though I'm sure some of the bad things attributed to them are not true but even if a small amount of it is true it's troublesome.

 

[chucky2]

Originally posted by: Red Dawn

Originally posted by: palehorse74

Originally posted by: Red Dawn

Originally posted by: palehorse74
And I'd rather fight side-by-side with the Boy Scouts than some of you...

Why not, you might learn a thing or two from a Boy Scout.

I'm a former Eagle Scout myself... The Boy Scout Law and US Army Values are very similar!

A Scout is trustworthy, Loyal, Helpful, Friendly, Courteous, Kind, Obedient, Cheerful, Thrifty, Brave, Clean, and Reverent.

Army Values: Loyalty, Duty, Respect, Selfless Service, Honor, Integrity, and Personal Courage.

The same can't be said for the American Hessians AKA Blackwater, they're in it for the money. Like the Hessians though I'm sure some of the bad things attributed to them are not true but even if a small amount of it is true it's troublesome.

So if your military committment is up, and/or you decide to retire from the US military, and there's a job waiting to pay you 3-4x what you were earning while in the military, plus, you don't have to deal with all the BS saluting beloved patriot and span BS, you're saying someone is a merc because they take that deal?

Same person that was in the US military, except now they're getting paid much more and have to deal with less BS.

Somehow that makes those people bad people?

I'm not following the logic here...

Chuck

 

[datalink7]

They are lucky they didn't draw weapons on my platoon. It would have ended badly for them.

 

[Phokus]

Originally posted by: palehorse74

Originally posted by: Red Dawn

Originally posted by: palehorse74
And I'd rather fight side-by-side with the Boy Scouts than some of you...

Why not, you might learn a thing or two from a Boy Scout.

I'm a former Eagle Scout myself... The Boy Scout Law and US Army Values are very similar!

A Scout is trustworthy, Loyal, Helpful, Friendly, Courteous, Kind, Obedient, Cheerful, Thrifty, Brave, Clean, and Reverent.

Army Values: Loyalty, Duty, Respect, Selfless Service, Honor, Integrity, and Personal Courage.

Funny, you seem to have abdicated those values standing up for these blackwater scumbags.

 

[Lemon law]

Originally posted by: datalink7
They are lucky they didn't draw weapons on my platoon. It would have ended badly for them.

You were not there, if the blackwater mercs had their weapons drawn first, a hot head idiot like you could have gotten yourself and your entire platoon killed. You may have been dead within your rights but dead none the less.

As it is our troops survived and lived to tell and more importantly report the tale. Or would you have preferred the likely blackwater version of they are all dead and blackwater arrived too late to save those American troops.

 

[dahunan]

Question.. what law will they punish them under

Iraqi
USA
UN
NATO