[bitsandchips]: Pascal to not have improved Async Compute over Maxwell

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nvgpu

Senior member
Sep 12, 2014
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Intel Skylake Gen9 GPU doesn't support async compute yet Intel's graphics marketshare dwarfs both Nvidia & AMD combined and many developers are implementing Conservative Rasterization and Rasterizer Ordered Views for Intel Gen 9 GPU. AMD GPUs won't even be able to run 12_1 games at all because they don't support it at all.

Async compute is pretty much irrelevant and wasteful of die space, 8 ACE units and still slower than Nvidia in performance.

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Rvenger

Elite Member <br> Super Moderator <br> Video Cards
Apr 6, 2004
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Intel Skylake Gen9 GPU doesn't support async compute yet Intel's graphics marketshare dwarfs both Nvidia & AMD combined and many developers are implementing Conservative Rasterization and Rasterizer Ordered Views for Intel Gen 9 GPU. AMD GPUs won't even be able to run 12_1 games at all because they don't support it at all.

Async compute is pretty much irrelevant and wasteful of die space, 8 ACE units and still slower than Nvidia in performance.


Citation please... Or I will assume this is trolling. This isn't a marketshare discussion or a DX 12.1 discussion either.

-Rvenger
 
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krumme

Diamond Member
Oct 9, 2009
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Dx11 is a serial type api. Therefore Dx12 was needed for asynch compute to be used in games.

The devs target to get most of the consoles. Here asynch compute with its 4 ace is paramount especially because of the weaker cpu. You need to ofload the cpu. When the first real dx12 games hits this will be quite evident. The signs and bm so far only goes one way. The probability for that to change is like avx-512 in future gen consoles.
 

nvgpu

Senior member
Sep 12, 2014
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https://forum.beyond3d.com/threads/intel-gen9-skylake.57204/page-6#post-1869935

From an API point of view, async compute is a way to provide an implementation with more potential parallelism to exploit. It is pretty analogous to SMT/hyper-threading: the API (multiple threads) are obviously supported on all hardware and depending on the workload and architecture it can increase performance in some cases where the different threads are using different hardware resources. However there is some inherent overhead to multithreading and an architecture that can get high performance with fewer threads (i.e. high IPC) is always preferable from a performance perspective.

When someone says that an architecture does or doesn't support "async compute/shaders" it is already an ambiguous statement (particularly for the latter). All DX12 implementations must support the API (i.e. there is no caps bit for "async compute", because such a thing doesn't really even make sense), although how they implement it under the hood may differ. This is the same as with many other features in the API.

From an architecture point of view, a more well-formed question is "can a given implementation ever be running 3D and compute workloads simultaneously, and at what granularity in hardware?" Gen9 cannot run 3D and compute simultaneously, as we've referenced in our slides. However what that means in practice is entirely workload dependent, and anyone asking the first question should also be asking questions about "how much execution unit idle time is there in workload X/Y/Z", "what is the granularity and overhead of preemption", etc. All of these things - most of all the workload - are relevant when determining how efficiently a given situation maps to a given architecture.

Without that context you're effectively in the space of making claims like "8 cores are always better than 4 cores" (regardless of architecture) because they can run 8 things simultaneously. Hopefully folks on this site understand why that's not particularly useful.

... and if anyone starts talking about numbers of hardware queues and ACEs and whatever else you can pretty safely ignore that as marketing/fanboy nonsense that is just adding more confusion rather than useful information.
 

iiiankiii

Senior member
Apr 4, 2008
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I'll take a smooth 60 fps over a jittery 70 fps anytime.

ahhh... We're back to that, now. Slower but smoother. Bro, I get it now. You're just behind the curve. It's 2016. That ain't an issue anymore.

Also, the real issue is GameWorks. You know, that blackbox that can't be touched or viewed without Nvidia's consent. That's the real problem. It's hard for AMD to address those problems without having access to the codes. Once AMD and/or game developers fix that hot mess, that is Gameworks, everything is up to parity.

Besides, that 80% marketshare means nothing when Nvidia is the one actively screwing over their own customers with GameWorks. The vast majority of their customers aren't Maxwell owners. They're Kepler and older owners. GameWorks has done a wonderful job of NOT optimizing for those guys in newer games. Yeah, so much for 80% marketshare. I'm sure those Kepler guys are SO grateful for GameWorks. NOT.


This is not a Gameworks argument. Get off the topic.

-Rvenger
 
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AtenRa

Lifer
Feb 2, 2009
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Async compute is pretty much irrelevant and wasteful of die space, 8 ACE units and still slower than Nvidia in performance.

1 : Hawaii (R9 390X) = 438mm2

2 : GM200 (Titan X, GTX980Ti) = 600mm2

3: 438mm2 = 600mm2

11051
 
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Pinstripe

Member
Jun 17, 2014
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ahhh... We're back to that, now. Slower but smoother. Bro, I get it now. You're just behind the curve. It's 2016. That ain't an issue anymore.

Also, the real issue is GameWorks. You know, that blackbox that can't be touched or viewed without Nvidia's consent. That's the real problem. It's hard for AMD to address those problems without having access to the codes. Once AMD and/or game developers fix that hot mess, that is Gameworks, everything is up to parity.

Besides, that 80% marketshare means nothing when Nvidia is the one actively screwing over their own customers with GameWorks. The vast majority of their customers aren't Maxwell owners. They're Kepler and older owners. GameWorks has done a wonderful job of NOT optimizing for those guys in newer games. Yeah, so much for 80% marketshare. I'm sure those Kepler guys are SO grateful for GameWorks. NOT.

Not sure why you're getting so angry bro. Gameworks nonsense can be disabled. Not everyone needs to play ULTRA settings like it's some kind of religion. Gameworks or not, Nvidia is still providing overall a more pleasant experience. I know because I own(ed) both Hawaii and Maxwell GPUs.
 
Feb 19, 2009
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It does, Tom Clancy's The Division uses conservative rasterization for HFTS ...

It's not done using DX12 but I'm pretty sure CR is used in Tom Clancy's The Division using an NVAPI extension ...

And it tanks performance, massively.

That's not looking well for a "feature" when performance drops off the cliff.

It's like GameWorks VXAO, Maxwell only, enjoy your major performance loss for almost nil visual gains.

Async Compute is "Multi-Threading for GPUs" as the media often say, it's a performance enhancement. Devs can use compute to make cool features and have it run for "free".

If Pascal is gimped on this DX12/Vulkan feature, it means there could be a weird situation. DX12 PC ports from consoles may come with Async Compute by default. If NV doesn't like that, they need to sponsor the port and rip it out, or even push it back to DX11, though studios may object to that later this year as more AAA DX12 titles make it a cool thing to have.
 
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Pinstripe

Member
Jun 17, 2014
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AOTS, eveybody's favorite benchmark that nobody will play. I'm sure the entire industry will follow it's lead.... not.


Trolling is not allowed here
Markfw900
 
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nvgpu

Senior member
Sep 12, 2014
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No one is buying AOTS at all, the Steam sales info says it all, but hey, enjoy your 8 ACE units I guess on a pretty much irrelevant and dead game.
 

sontin

Diamond Member
Sep 12, 2011
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Did you even bother to read his commend about Async Compute ???

What Anno 2205 has to do with Async Compute ??? :rolleyes:

Yes i did. That is the reason why i have shown Anno2205

Biased games dont say anything about the improvements. And Ashes is the most extreme example for a biased engine.
 
Feb 19, 2009
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AOTS, eveybody's favorite benchmark that nobody will play. I'm sure the entire industry will follow it's lead.... not.

Sure they will. Is NV going to stop DX12?

Total War: Warhammer devs have already said they use DX12 for these features, to handle large scale battles.

Enlighten yourself: https://youtu.be/Vq3A2OiRfco?t=1m50s

Deus Ex uses it to enhance effects and accelerate TressFX/PureHair.

Are NV going to stop developers optimizing for console GCN and using Async Compute? No, they have no say in the biggest market for game developers.

They could bribe the studios for the PC port, remove AC, force DX11 only. Though I think there will be a massive backlash.
 
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Feb 19, 2009
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Yes i did. That is the reason why i has shown you Anno2205.

Biased games doesnt say anything about the improvements. And Ashes is the most extreme example for a biased engine.

No, actually Hitman's Glacier 2 has bigger AMD bias. That engine is going to be used in the upcoming Deus Ex. ;)

And nothing touches Unreal Engine 4 for bias. The engine itself is directly sponsored by NV, with full PhysX integration and plenty of GameWorks as optional plugins.
 

AtenRa

Lifer
Feb 2, 2009
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No one is buying AOTS at all, the Steam sales info says it all, but hey, enjoy your 8 ACE units I guess on a pretty much irrelevant and dead game.

From 8 ACES are waste of die space to nobody buys AoTS.

Next one will be DX-12 games cost more than $50 and only a few people buy them.
 

Pinstripe

Member
Jun 17, 2014
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Sure they will. Is NV going to stop DX12?

Total War: Warhammer devs have already said they use DX12 for these features, to handle large scale battles.

Deus Ex uses it to enhance effects and accelerate TressFX/PureHair.

Are NV going to stop developers optimizing for console GCN and using Async Compute? No, they have no say in the biggest market for game developers.

They could bribe the studios for the PC port, remove AC, force DX11 only. Though I think there will be a massive backlash.

AOTS is heavily tailored towards compute load, so no, it's not the industry norm and won't throughout this whole console generation. Asynch will have it's selective moments but it won't provide the finishing blow to Nvidia that AMD fans are so eagerly hoping for.
 

3DVagabond

Lifer
Aug 10, 2009
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Yes i did. That is the reason why i have shown Anno2205

Biased games dont say anything about the improvements. And Ashes is the most extreme example for a biased engine.

What is your evidence for this? Besides "guilt through association".
 

sontin

Diamond Member
Sep 12, 2011
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Evidence? The huge AMD logo on their site, the two year promotion tour for AMD and their Mantle API, their hardware and their software.

Nobody really believes that they are neutral. Or?
 

Sweepr

Diamond Member
May 12, 2006
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Just posted today, they're AMD partners:

Optimized for AMD Radeon Graphics:

Ashes of the Singularity by Stardock and Oxide Games
Total War: WARHAMMER by Creative Assembly
Battlezone VR by Rebellion
Deus Ex: Mankind Divided by Eidos-Montréal
Nitrous Engine by Oxide Games
 
Feb 19, 2009
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AOTS is heavily tailored towards compute load, so no, it's not the industry norm and won't throughout this whole console generation. Asynch will have it's selective moments but it won't provide the finishing blow to Nvidia that AMD fans are so eagerly hoping for.

You are not privy to such info, don't make bold claims without proof.

Out of the 2 DX12 games so far that uses Async Compute, they both show nice gains for AMD vs NV. That's AOTS and Hitman.

The other DX12 game, GOW:U, has AMD running faster overall at every market segment. Note, it's only basic DX12, no Async Compute used and AMD is already faster. -_-

Lastly, RoTR DX12 is beta, Nixxes stated it as such, it's a work in progress where all GPUs regress in performance.

Next up we will get Quantum Break, see how it goes. In May we get Total War: Warhammer. It's going to look like AOTS, epic 10K unit battles, lots of effects...
 
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