So somebody who has experienced what you are talking about only has an idealized memory according to you? Maybe you should rethink your agenda a bit. Somebody with real world experience told you how your opinion is wrong. And all you can come back with is unsubstantiated opinion about how that was how used to be done.
So somebody who has experienced what you are talking about only has an idealized memory according to you? Maybe you should rethink your agenda a bit. Somebody with real world experience told you how your opinion is wrong. And all you can come back with is unsubstantiated opinion about how that was how used to be done.
thesmokingman
Platinum Member
- May 6, 2010
- 2,302
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lol, he wrote himself he isn't in the biz anymore and has no experience with GW. D:
That said the obvious must escape you? How do we know he is even in the biz? How does anyone know if anyone is who they say they are, no offense to the one in question obviously.
I liked to read his answer though, if he'd knowingly put in black box code, if he'd put in gw libraries w/o compensation knowing how they break his game, hurting his profits...? You know, let's read what he has to say instead of your whining?
Anyone who has ever used a non-source available engine by default has the majority of their game running in a black box. So tens of thousands of developers until the (very) recent push to make engine source available to the non-enterprise level customer. This only really happened with the rise of Unity, Unreal 4 and literally a few weeks ago with CryEngine 5. Source access was nowhere near as common as you seem to think. The vast majority of games are not AAA.
Let's talk about all the other black boxes you run into in code at a ridiculously high level:
1. DirectX itself
2. Your audio middleware
3. Store/Steam APIs
4. Microsoft Windows
5. Graphics Driver
6. OS TCP/IP stack
7. Everything else that is lower than the app layer on the OSI model.
Application development is entirely built upon the abstractions of others unless you are writing assembly.
I'm not defending gameworks. But acting like there's this horde of people not using any black boxes at all is absolutely ludicrous and completely detached from the reality of programming in a consumer environment.
Roller Coaster Tycoon was written in assembly by one guy, so maybe you ought to go give Chris Sawyer a high five. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RollerCoaster_Tycoon#History
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Do you believe TWIMTBP is drastically different than GW? Why?
What he talks about is generally accepted among any development team.
What you talk about is generally accepted by people who believe in conspiracy theories and dont understand a development cycle. In other words. Change goal posts or look for cracks in an argument. Like for instance pointing out he worked with TWIMTBP but not GW. But provide no proof GW changed how Nvidia does business. Then use that lack of proof to discredit his understanding of how it works now. Eventhough you have no direct experience with GW neither.
thesmokingman
Platinum Member
- May 6, 2010
- 2,302
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Lmao, you're equating the developer's engine to a black box.
D:Is it a surprise all the pro GW ppl are coming out of the wood work? The timing of this interjecting seems perfect to digress from the fact that this is a thread about the rumor of unimproved AS in Pascal.
Lmao, you're equating the developer's engine to a black box.
You clearly do not have any idea about what programming is like or you have some wild definition of black box. Any time you send a call to a function that you did not write and cannot modify, that is a black box. This is the normal definition.
What do you think a game engine is, exactly? What do you think DirectX or OpenGL are, exactly?
Send me a copy of the source code for DirectX 11 and 12 since you don't use any black boxes at all.
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Lmao, you're equating the developer's engine to a black box.
Is it a surprise all the pro GW ppl are coming out of the wood work? The timing of this interjecting seems perfect to digress from the fact that this is a thread about the rumor of unimproved AS in Pascal.
Let's make this simple.
Provide me proof that current Windows graphic drivers for AMD/Nvidia are source-available. If they are not, you are unambiguously wrong wrt every developer who has released a game on windows. The latest graphic drivers are not source available and you can ask any dev to back that up. Graphic drivers are the most notoriously difficult black boxes.
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The difference with GameWorks is it's a black box that only Nvidia can optimize, while AMD cards are forced to run their code.
Krteq
Golden Member
- May 22, 2015
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AMDGPU driver binaries sources are publicly available (GNU GPL)... same as ISA documentation.¨
GitHub - amdgpu
AMD - Developer Guides, Manuals & ISA Documents
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How is nVidia responsible for AMD's outdated hardware? A GTX980TI is twice as fast with Tessellation than Fury X. A GTX980TI supports advanced graphic features like CR which is useful for light culling or better looking shadows.
Maybe we should start to care more about graphics and less about AMD.
what a coincidence you are only mentioning highend hardware. as if everybody has highend hardware in their pcs D:
also there is a little neat trick that amd gave their customers ,unlike nvidia, that lets them chose how it looks with minimal perf. hit. nvidia on the other hand doesnt give a damn about theirs and shoves tesselation all of their customers right up uranus :thumbsdown:
outdated hardware is the funniest thing in this forum since months
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kondziowy
Senior member
- Feb 19, 2016
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How is AMD responsible for Nvidia's outdated hardware? A Fury X is 8,6GFlops and 980Ti is 5,6GFlops. And last I checked tesselation beyond x16 factor is not improving image quality. Good move to waste die space on extreme tesselators for those ultra God Rays in Fallout 4 - worth it.
The point was, AMD features run with minimal perf impact on ALL gpus. While Nvidias run with huge impact.
that's linux. There may be a regime change if SteamOS takes off but im not too hopeful
Glo.
Diamond Member
- Apr 25, 2015
- 5,930
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what a coincidence you are only mentioning highend hardware. as if everybody has highend hardware in their pcs D:
also there is a little neat trick that amd gave their customers ,unlike nvidia, that lets them chose how it looks with minimal perf. hit. nvidia on the other hand doesnt give a damn about theirs and shoves tesselation all of their customers right up uranus :thumbsdown:
outdated hardware is the funniest thing in this forum since months
In Poland, before last election, one of political platforms(PO, to be exact) payed internet haters to create storms on forums with negative PR over their competitors. How do you think - would it be possible to a GPU company to pay few dollars each month to people to spin threads in negative way, or to show their competition in negative way? Especially if they are able to pay developers to implement their propertiary technology in their games?
Not really. AMD still has to compile it from the HLSL IR to GCN code, so they can optimize or replace any code that's not particularly efficient with their hardware.
Code that runs efficiently on maxwell is probably not going to be as efficient on GCN, so I don't really see what the issue is. Do you expect nvidia to make optimized versions of gameworks routines for every brand and architecture?
Do you really expect AMD to go back and optimize code every time Nvidia trashes their performance with GameWorks? Should they do this before or after the benchmarks are out? D:
This is so off topic at this point.
This already happened on these forums.
None of this is really meaningful in relation to the thread. If you guys want to talk about Gameworks conspiracies I think you should start a new thread about it.
I feel that it is meaningful to this thread and many others on this forum. There seems to be a purposeful attempt by certain posters to derail threads on this forum. We see the same people again and again post an excessive amount compared to the average person. We have certain people averaging roughly 15 posts a day whose sole content is slamming anything AMD. More people need to question why they do this. Every thread is hammered into the ground, derailed, and locked. This isn't healthy for a thread or a forum.
Yes.
Are there any gameworks effects that run poorly on AMD hardware that aren't heavy on tessellation and geometry shaders?
It's easier to look at what gameworks effects haven't broken performance on AMD surely?
Pick between PhysX (Project Cars), HairWorks (Witcher 3) and HBAO+ (broke GoW) have all broken what was previously fine AMD performance in some way.
You're telling me that AMD should go back and reoptimize every time Nvidia decides to add another gameworks feature?
And let me ask you again - should they do this before or after the benchmarks are out?
Krteq
Golden Member
- May 22, 2015
- 1,007
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Yep, AMDGPU is a linux driver, but vast majority of code is shared between Windows and Linux blobs... and some parts of AMDGPU driver are still "closed-source".
Anyway, in opening code and releasing GPUs documentation they are light years ahead another GPU IHV (and I don't mean Intel by that IHV)
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