Philippart
Golden Member
- Jul 9, 2006
- 1,290
- 0
- 0
haha I predict the first bitcoin financial crisis followed by quantitative easing
To me this looks like a scam:
*you don't know what you crunch for them (distribution of viruses via a zombie network maybe??)
*I bet cheating is easy
*the only reason for crunching is for "money" which doesn't expire, but could be worth 0.00$ once the initial interest has gone
*the things you can trade for your coins look strange, just look at this section: https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Trade#Psychoactive_drugs I wouldn't want to get involved in this
I don't believe in this, there have been other DC platforms offering real money in the past, but it was never profitable, it didn't even cover the costs of creating "money"
petrusbroder
Elite Member
- Nov 28, 2004
- 13,347
- 1,154
- 126
haha I predict the first bitcoin financial crisis followed by quantitative easing
To me this looks like a scam:
*you don't know what you crunch for them (distribution of viruses via a zombie network maybe??)
*I bet cheating is easy
*the only reason for crunching is for "money" which doesn't expire, but could be worth 0.00$ once the initial interest has gone
*the things you can trade for your coins look strange, just look at this section: https://en.bitcoin.it/wiki/Trade#Psychoactive_drugs I wouldn't want to get involved in this
I don't believe in this, there have been other DC platforms offering real money in the past, but it was never profitable, it didn't even cover the costs of creating "money"
This has been hashed out on many forums already.
-I know exactly what I'm crunching, it's open source, see for yourself.
-Cheating requires one person controlling over 50% of the network hashing power (which is currently 12463 TeraFLOP/s or 981.31 Gigahash/s).
-It is indeed new, and there is risk involved, the main risk being acceptance.
-You can buy drugs with Federal Reserve Notes, do you get involved with them (FRNs, not drugs)? Blame the criminal not the tool.
It doesn't really matter if you "believe" in it, it exists and there are people profiting from it. Even though "mining" isn't the main goal of the project, you are simply rewarded for securing the network. The technical paper that was provided in the OP is from the creator of Bitcoin and explains everything fairly well. Did you bother to read it? I have to assume not, since you brought up points that are already covered in the paper...
Why are people so against something new, without even doing the proper amount of research? If the governments of the world don't shut down Bitcoin (if they can, it's distributed, like bittorrent), it has the potential of giving everyone security in their currency. No more inflation (theft), which you so handily joked about at the beginning of your post.
Bitcoin is a revolutionary currency designed from the ground up by a genius. Don't be so quick to mock it, you just might learn something new and exciting.
dajeepster
Golden Member
- Apr 15, 2001
- 1,974
- 16
- 81
apparently so... all by Rezin77
if you haven't figured out by now... we don't crunch for money.. neither fake nor real (although real money would be nice)
we do it for science... and our big stat ego..
Fardringle
Diamond Member
- Oct 23, 2000
- 9,200
- 765
- 126
It's attempting to decrypt the credit card information stolen during the PSN hacking/outage...
I like the arguments that amount to, "I don't understand, so it's stupid."
Steve Gibson does a fair job of explaining it here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XQPSwA2Itbs
You want stats to stroke your ego?
Bitcoin current network strength: 13.504 petaflops in less than a year.
You want a science experiment?
Can a decentralized crypto-currency give the power of money back to the people?
Imagine all the good that could come from people having their money free from the control of central banks. The power of money where it is meant to be, in the hands of the people that use it, not in the hands of a few members of a boardroom. Brilliant minds in impoverished countries could be able to sell their inventions to the world, instead of being held back by the whims of immoral leaders.
And yes, these are the words of a genius.
"Abstract. A purely peer-to-peer version of electronic cash would allow online
payments to be sent directly from one party to another without going through a
financial institution. Digital signatures provide part of the solution, but the main
benefits are lost if a trusted third party is still required to prevent double-spending.
We propose a solution to the double-spending problem using a peer-to-peer network.
The network timestamps transactions by hashing them into an ongoing chain of
hash-based proof-of-work, forming a record that cannot be changed without redoing
the proof-of-work. The longest chain not only serves as proof of the sequence of
events witnessed, but proof that it came from the largest pool of CPU power. As
long as a majority of CPU power is controlled by nodes that are not cooperating to
attack the network, they'll generate the longest chain and outpace attackers. The
network itself requires minimal structure. Messages are broadcast on a best effort
basis, and nodes can leave and rejoin the network at will, accepting the longest
proof-of-work chain as proof of what happened while they were gone."
But forget his words. Look at the code and decide for yourself.
But whatever, it's all a joke or a scam. I won't bother you here anymore.
Steve Gibson does a fair job of explaining it here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XQPSwA2Itbs
You want stats to stroke your ego?
Bitcoin current network strength: 13.504 petaflops in less than a year.
You want a science experiment?
Can a decentralized crypto-currency give the power of money back to the people?
Imagine all the good that could come from people having their money free from the control of central banks. The power of money where it is meant to be, in the hands of the people that use it, not in the hands of a few members of a boardroom. Brilliant minds in impoverished countries could be able to sell their inventions to the world, instead of being held back by the whims of immoral leaders.
And yes, these are the words of a genius.
"Abstract. A purely peer-to-peer version of electronic cash would allow online
payments to be sent directly from one party to another without going through a
financial institution. Digital signatures provide part of the solution, but the main
benefits are lost if a trusted third party is still required to prevent double-spending.
We propose a solution to the double-spending problem using a peer-to-peer network.
The network timestamps transactions by hashing them into an ongoing chain of
hash-based proof-of-work, forming a record that cannot be changed without redoing
the proof-of-work. The longest chain not only serves as proof of the sequence of
events witnessed, but proof that it came from the largest pool of CPU power. As
long as a majority of CPU power is controlled by nodes that are not cooperating to
attack the network, they'll generate the longest chain and outpace attackers. The
network itself requires minimal structure. Messages are broadcast on a best effort
basis, and nodes can leave and rejoin the network at will, accepting the longest
proof-of-work chain as proof of what happened while they were gone."
But forget his words. Look at the code and decide for yourself.
But whatever, it's all a joke or a scam. I won't bother you here anymore.
zzuupp
Lifer
- Jul 6, 2008
- 14,866
- 2,319
- 126
I. Yes, I do want a science experiment.
II. Not sure, about "power to the people"
III. Really?
IV. Eventually, I'll check the code, I doubt that I'll understand it.
V. Thanks for your opinion
Rudy Toody
Diamond Member
- Sep 30, 2006
- 4,267
- 421
- 126
The weakness in this scheme is the number of crunchers needed to process the chains. As crunchers experience little or no bitcoins for their work, they will leave the network. This results in more bitcoins earned by fewer crunchers and lower block creation rates on the network, which means the rate of bitcoin production will fall.
It's a bit like a Ponzi Scheme: the early adopters make the money and late adopters don't.
Also, it is quite inefficient. One hundred crunchers work on the same task and only one reaps the reward. So, 99 crunchers have wasted their resouces.
This is not for me.:thumbsdown:
It's a bit like a Ponzi Scheme: the early adopters make the money and late adopters don't.
Also, it is quite inefficient. One hundred crunchers work on the same task and only one reaps the reward. So, 99 crunchers have wasted their resouces.
This is not for me.:thumbsdown:
petrusbroder
Elite Member
- Nov 28, 2004
- 13,347
- 1,154
- 126
Why should I look at the code? The code may be perfectly OK and do all you say, but how do I know that the code presented really is the code which runs on my computer? Add a few lines of code to the program and it does something else.
This argument may be valid for a lot of programs, but those programs do not promise coin or money for work. They promise scientific results which I later can check in publications, reports and evaluations. Also the scientific rationale is well explained. This scheme is too obscure for me ...
When money is involved, some people do a lot of fishy things. That is why I like banks - because they have regulations what they can do and what they can not do.
As far as I understand the scheme, I agree with Rudy Toody's objections.
This argument may be valid for a lot of programs, but those programs do not promise coin or money for work. They promise scientific results which I later can check in publications, reports and evaluations. Also the scientific rationale is well explained. This scheme is too obscure for me ...
When money is involved, some people do a lot of fishy things. That is why I like banks - because they have regulations what they can do and what they can not do.
As far as I understand the scheme, I agree with Rudy Toody's objections.
Rudy Toody
Diamond Member
- Sep 30, 2006
- 4,267
- 421
- 126
I believe Steve Gibson when he says that the use of public key encryption makes the process bullet-proof. However, here is where I think the crime comes in.
The BitCoin process begins with a genesis block. By definition, each block contains transactions that have value. So, was the genesis block loaded with 1,000,000 bitcoins owned by the inventor of the process? Is he waiting for the world to give bitcoins enough value so he can cash in?
Also, the ability to change your public key at any time, so nobody can track your transactions, allows him to use a second key until he switches back to his original public key to redeem the bitcoins. Until that point, nobody connects him to the first key.
It's a scam!
The BitCoin process begins with a genesis block. By definition, each block contains transactions that have value. So, was the genesis block loaded with 1,000,000 bitcoins owned by the inventor of the process? Is he waiting for the world to give bitcoins enough value so he can cash in?
Also, the ability to change your public key at any time, so nobody can track your transactions, allows him to use a second key until he switches back to his original public key to redeem the bitcoins. Until that point, nobody connects him to the first key.
It's a scam!
Last edited:
dajeepster
Golden Member
- Apr 15, 2001
- 1,974
- 16
- 81
apparently you are calling us stupid...
Of your current six post, five of them were on this thread alone.
since you've said you had an account before but lost your password.. you should still be able to link to your old profile.. please do so that we can verify the legitimacy of at least that.
i apologize to anyone else if it seems like i'm crapping on this thread.
A ponzi scheme involves fraud. There is no fraud in Bitcoin. Do you think 13 petaflops worth of miners are all so easily deceived?
Was buying Google stock early a ponzi scheme? No, it was a good investment.
Yeah, the fishy things are being done by the central banks. You like inflation hhmmm? You realize it's theft right?
Being anonymous with your money is no crime... It's your money, you should be able to do with it as you please. Again, when crime occurs, blame the criminal, not the tool. And just for the record, you would be able to link the two keys by reviewing transfers using block explorer.
No, I most certainly am not. In fact I'm posting here because I assume there are smart individuals that could see the many benefits of Bitcoin. I am suggesting that many in this thread are making comments without taking the time to learn what Bitcoin is.
Does it really matter who I am? The validity of a post should come from the content, not the identity of the poster.
I joined Anand when I first got into computers. I also joined Overclockers.com about the same time. Most of my posting was done there as it was geared more towards my interests, mainly overclocking.
Look, I mine Bitcoins. Convincing more people to mine Bitcoins goes against my best interests (as far as my wallet is concerned). The more people who mine, the less Bitcoins I am rewarded. The algorithm increases it's difficulty as more people join the network in order to create a steady flow of the newly mined coins. It aims for 1 block every 10 minutes or so.
The reason I want to spread Bitcoin is I personally feel it can lead to great things. Freedom of money is something that doesn't exist in today's world. It is controlled by a small percentage of people, if we can change this, we can change the future.
If I was trying to profit by discussing Bitcoin, I would be telling you all to buy them, not mine them. I don't have any shares in AMD or any electric companies.
Mining is not a get rich quick scheme. It will eventually only be profitable to two groups: the most efficient miners, or those that don't pay for electricity. The reason it's profitable for so many now is because Bitcoin is new and it's experiencing rapid growth.
If any of you have read about Bitcoin and are interested, once you start mining you will probably join a pool (to reduce variance of your reward). I suggest you join the small pools.
A thread was posted at Overclockers.net and most of the new people joined an already large pool. There is an attack on the network that can occur if an individual, or group of individuals, has a majority of the network hashing power.
Many new users are joining large pools because they like competition. They are there to make money, not secure the network. They join without understanding what they are doing.
A pool is, for all practical purposes, many people contributing their hashing power to one Bitcoin client. That client is controlled by one person. Currently, some pools are getting to be about 25% of the entire network. I hope to see this change. Bitcoin was designed to be secure by being distributed across thousands of computers. GPU mining and the pool changed this.
Fardringle
Diamond Member
- Oct 23, 2000
- 9,200
- 765
- 126
Absolutely, yes. Look up Bernie Madoff as an example of how easy it is to separate people from their money when you appeal to their sense of greed (as Bitcoin is doing).
You realize that your tin foil hat is slipping, right?
Only because it's a VERY common theme for people to create new accounts here and post repeatedly about some "wonderful, new, amazing" scam.
How can the generation of fake currency change the future? Currency only has value if other people (with their own currrency/value to back them) say that it has value. If Europe and Asia were to suddenly decide that the U.S. Dollar had no value, then it would immediately have little to no value. Bitcoins currently only have value because a few people think it's a fun idea. They have no real value outside of the group of people who are running the project.
So unless you get free power or have hundreds (or thousands) of computers, don't bother.
This is an excellent example of what happens when greedy people and the possibility of money are involved. Those with the power to do so, do their best to take control. Everyone else is excluded. Which is exactly what you say the project is trying to eliminate in the rest of the world. If it can't be stopped inside the Bitcoin project, how can the project possibly end the practice by those who deal with the real money?
What stops that one person from taking all of the profits of the entire group when they decide that the profit is big enough (or drying up)? See Rudy's comment about Ponzi schemes..
You know, I get the whole "Oh neat I can "fold" and get money for it" but this whole "Power to the people, viva la bitcoin!" sentiment is just silly. This whole "planned obsolescence" deflation as the coins reach their static limit and then are slowly lost over time and the transition to "decimal" coins is absurd. All it takes is one hoarder, one lost-then-found cache, one crack and everything is thrown to the wind. Until the point when the coin limit is reached, I could see it surviving, but a deflationary currency is doomed.
In the "myth" section of their wiki their one 'fear' is one group/entity amassing too much processing power and therefore too much of the currency. But as soon as the point in time is reached when the absolute number of coins begins to decrease, the chance of "someone" amassing "too much" wealth increases to no end.
Also, I could be mistaken but it almost seems like the "wallet" file that stored your coins is nothing more than a plaintext file by default?
And according to the wiki they can only be spent once?
In the "myth" section of their wiki their one 'fear' is one group/entity amassing too much processing power and therefore too much of the currency. But as soon as the point in time is reached when the absolute number of coins begins to decrease, the chance of "someone" amassing "too much" wealth increases to no end.
Also, I could be mistaken but it almost seems like the "wallet" file that stored your coins is nothing more than a plaintext file by default?
And according to the wiki they can only be spent once?
Oh please, anyone who knows what inflation is knows that it dilutes the buying power of already existing money. That is theft, plain and simple. I guess Thomas Jefferson wore a tinfoil had too.
"If the American people ever allow private banks
to control the issue of their money,
first by inflation and then by deflation,
the banks and corporations that will
grow up around them (around the banks),
will deprive the people of their property
until their children will wake up homeless
on the continent their fathers conquered."
-Thomas Jefferson
Obviously it requires people to value it, I never suggested otherwise. My hope is that enough people realize it's superiority over fiat currency to value it.
Let's not be extreme. I pay .08 cents per kWh. I have two computers. I've paid off five 5870s and just purchased a new rig at newegg. All from mining bitcoins.
Your argument is: Greedy people are greedy, let's not try something new. They aren't taking control by any means. It's difficult to explain why because you don't really have a firm grasp on how Bitcoin works. As I said, if someone gains control of over half the network power (7 petaflops), they can hurt the network. This doesn't mean there is no response to such an attack.
Please elaborate. Taking all of the profits? Do you mean a person holding many Bitcoins sells all of their Bitcoins, pushing the exchange rate down? I don't have a problem with this, that is a free market at work. Yes, there is risk in a free market, I never said there wasn't. What I'm saying is there is no fraud. A Ponzi scheme is someone guaranteeing profit from an investment. There is no guarantee of anything with Bitcoins. As you said, if people find value in them, they will go up in value, and vice versa.
There is no such thing as a deflationary spiral. People are mortal. Look up time preference.
Time preference again.
Truecrypt is fantastic software. Future versions of the Bitcoin client will have encrypted wallet files.
Nonsense, I have no idea where you read that. Could you provide a link so I can see about getting it fixed? The guy who created it was no slouch, seriously, he thought of so many issues in advance, it's quite amazing. You can spend Bitcoins as much as you like. You can send them back and forth to yourself all day if you wish.
Fardringle
Diamond Member
- Oct 23, 2000
- 9,200
- 765
- 126
You said yourself that the group from Overclockers.net was causing problems with the system because they teamed up together to make a large pool of computers.
In order to have any chance at getting coins, you recommended that people team up together with one person managing the pool. Let's say I'm the person managing the pool and I decide to take all of the coins from the pool and sell them and run. Too bad for you and everyone else in my pool... That's EXACTLY like a Ponzi scheme and I can pretty much guarantee you that if it has not happened already it will certainly happen some time in the near future.
I said that new people from overclockers.net were joining a large pool that was already in existence. The largest pool is about 25% of the hash rate. If one pool were to be 51% of the network hash rate, the owner of the pool could attempt to double spend. If such an attempt was made it would cause problems, yes. It would be recognized immediately though, and the miners would stop mining in that pool, and no one would trust that pool operator again. Considering a large pool is finding 50 blocks a day. With a 2% fee, that's 50 Bitcoins for the pool operator. At current exchange rates that is $150 USD a day. I think a pool operator would have to have some large incentive to risk that kind of profit.
Also, no system is perfect. This one in particular is extremely difficult to attack. I expect new pools will pop up with better incentives and the network will consist of tens if not hundreds of small pools. Bitcoin is less than a year old. Understand you are arguing that someone could take over the network and attack the pool, simply to double spend his Bitcoins, for the amount of time that the rest of the network allows it to happen. These attacks, while real, are extremely difficult. I'd imagine omeone that determined would have a much easier time just counterfeiting Federal Reserve Notes or stealing credit card numbers.
I recommended they join a small pool, depending on your computing power. With 3-4 machines you could easily mine solo and deal with the variance.
To address your example: The pool I'm in allows you to set a payout amount (most do). When you have earned that amount of Bitcoins, the pool sends that amount to your Bitcoin address. I have it set to about once a day. Others set it much more frequently. Trust me, people are fanatical about this. If a pool operator decides to stop paying out, people would notice within a few hours and everyone would start abandoning that pool.
So, to go back to our previous example, where the pool operator was earning 50 BTC a day. He stops automatic payments and gets away with it for 6 hours (very generous). Perhaps he told the people in his pool there were technical difficulties. 50 blocks in 24 hours means 12.4 blocks in 6 hours. That's 625 Bitcoins. He's stolen the same amount of Bitcoins he would have earned in less than 13 days by continuing to be a legitimate pool operator. And now, no one will mine in his pool again. The scenario doesn't make much sense.
Besides, you don't have to mine for a pool. It simply reduces variance. You can mine solo just fine and don't even have to worry about pool operators stealing your Bitcoins.
Also, this isn't a ponzi scheme either, it's outright theft. It's like I fix your car and you drive off without paying. There is no scheme, you simply stole my services.
And another thing, theft is everywhere. Trying to say Bitcoin is a poor currency because of theft is like trying to say Ford makes terrible cars because bank robbers can use them. As long as there is money, people will try to steal it. Secure your wallet, deal with trusted people, it's not that difficult.
Well if all you GPGPU people are hating on bitcoin, if you decide to get rid of your 58xx series cards, I'd gladly take them off your hands to continued to be defrauded as apart of this ponzi scheme.
dajeepster
Golden Member
- Apr 15, 2001
- 1,974
- 16
- 81
or we could just continue to use our 58xx series cards for our current projects.. such as milkyway, collatz, primegrid, f@h...
I'm pretty sure no one bought a 58xx series card for bitcoin
petrusbroder
Elite Member
- Nov 28, 2004
- 13,347
- 1,154
- 126
Well, I just don't understand ... who says we are "hating" bitcoin? Nobody at all! Many of us just don't trust the scheme and program. Trust is the basis of all commerce. Lack of trust is not equal to "hating", it is a basis of not taking part.
No program or scheme is worth hating (unless you loose a lot). I would not expend that energy.
What i am thinking is: Why do some posters want us to take part so much? Why not accept our "no" and leave it? Why is it so important to recruit more people when Rezin777 states:
There must be some reason for this persistence. Could it be that those in the bitcoin program need the growth to make a gain? And that possibly at our costs? I don't trust any program which relies on recruiting more and more people because this reminds me of the pyramid-scheme, where the people at the bottom pay all and gain nothing.
No program or scheme is worth hating (unless you loose a lot). I would not expend that energy.
What i am thinking is: Why do some posters want us to take part so much? Why not accept our "no" and leave it? Why is it so important to recruit more people when Rezin777 states:
- I don't understand this!
There must be some reason for this persistence. Could it be that those in the bitcoin program need the growth to make a gain? And that possibly at our costs? I don't trust any program which relies on recruiting more and more people because this reminds me of the pyramid-scheme, where the people at the bottom pay all and gain nothing.
I said it hurts me (in the wallet) if more people start mining. Less Bitcoins for me, you see.
The reason I am promoting Bitcoin is the same reason someone would promote folding@home. I believe it can improve society. Yes, it's that simple. I believe that Bitcoin can improve society more than all other distributed computing programs combined.
Politics aside, Bitcoin is a far superior digital currency. Think paypal with no fees, no chargebacks, and no linking of bank accounts. (I know, some people like the fees that go towards fraud protection. It goes both ways though, someone can chargeback a legitimate sale. Also, paypal can freeze your account. Not so with Bitcoin. Besides, if someone wanted to start a Bitcoin business that protected against fraud, well there is a huge market for that as well!)
Besides, this is a thread about Bitcoin in a distributed computing forum. People are giving misinformation and generally don't understand the project. I'm sure that when someone spreads misinformation about a project you are working on, you take the time to correct them. It does no one any good to have false information, about anything. Bitcoin is important to me, so I'm trying to stop the misinformation. I didn't even start this thread, I saw it while browsing, and tried to post, but forgot my password. So I created a new account and voila, here we are.
Am I not allowed to be excited about a project and try to get new people to join in?
And of course it requires new users to sustain it. It's a freaking currency. It requires users by definition.
At your costs? Yeah, you might actually end up with a currency that can't be inflated (or deflated) at the whim of a board of directors. Oh the horror.
I guess the problem is many people in a distributed computing forum understand computers (maybe, people still can't seem to wrap their head around what Bitcoin is actually doing), but they don't understand economics. That's understandable, most economists don't seem to understand economics.
Bitcoin is no scheme. Let me say this once and for all.
THERE IS NO GUARANTEE YOU WILL MAKE PROFIT!!!!
I would be leery if someone came here and said, "Hey guys, I just found this program to run on your computer, you have to pay 50 dollars to use it. But then you go and get 20 friends to join and you get half of their start up fees. Send me 50 dollars and I'll send you the program."
That is a scheme!
If you aren't efficient. If you pay a lot for electricity. If people decide Bitcoins are worthless. All of these things are possible and you will LOSE MONEY!
And obviously if you are an early Bitcoin adopter, you have a greater potential for profits. Most successful ideas work this way. Investing in Apple, or Google in their early days was far more profitable than investing in them now. That doesn't mean the early investors are stealing from the new investors. Those companies can still earn profits for the new investors as well! Sheesh...
I've been mining since the beginning of April. I already had one 5xxx card (lucky me). I've purchased five 5870s (all in my heatware) and two 5850s (newegg), and built two new computers, all from profits on Bitcoin. I bought used hardware at a great price. I took my time and picked low energy components. 15W CPU, check. I've mined over 500 Bitcoins. Current exchange rate $3.37 per coin. What a scam...
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