Bishop Would Deny Communion to Giuliani

[theeedude]

http://apnews.myway.com/article/20071003/D8S20AK00.html

ST. LOUIS (AP) - Roman Catholic Archbishop Raymond Burke, who made headlines last presidential season by saying he'd refuse Holy Communion to John Kerry, has his eye on Rudy Giuliani this year. Giuliani's response: "Archbishops have a right to their opinion."

Burke, the archbishop of St. Louis, was asked if he would deny Communion to Giuliani or any other presidential candidate who supports abortion rights.

"If any politician approached me and he'd been admonished not to present himself, I'd not give it," Burke told The Associated Press Wednesday. "To me, you have to be certain a person realizes he is persisting in a serious public sin."

Asked if the same would apply to politicians who support the death penalty or pre-emptive war, he said, "It's a little more complicated in that case."

Asked about Burke's comments Wednesday while campaigning in New Hampshire, Giuliani said:

"Archbishops have a right to their opinion, you know. There's freedom of religion in this country. There's no established religion, and archbishops have a right to their opinion. Everybody has a right to their opinion."

Burke says that anyone administering Communion - ordained priest or lay minister - is morally obligated to deny it to Catholic politicians who support an abortion-rights position contrary to church teaching.

Burke published an article in April in a church law journal that explored whether it is ever appropriate to deny Communion. Some U.S. bishops interpret church teaching to say that an individual examination of conscience, not a minister, should dictate whether a person is worthy to receive the sacrament.

Burke said denial of Communion is not a judgment. "What the state of his soul is is between God and him," he said.

I remember Republicans scored some political hay with Catholics over this whole issue last cycle. I wonder if they'll stay as "principled" when it comes to their own candidate.

 

[Rainsford]

Sounds like that Archbishop should get his nose out of politics and spend a little more time studying up on his faith. I went to Catholic school for years, and I can never remember a concept whereby Catholics were denied communion for a sin...that's why Catholics participate in confession. Idiots like this are a big part of the reason I no longer practice.

 

[Lemon law]

The question is if this mere arch bishop is not crusin for a brusin from the catholic hierarchy. When he picks on someone as big as Giuliani he is really making a decision that
somewhat binds cardinals and even the Pope. And can endanger the separation of church and state at exactly the time when the catholic church is in deep trouble over pedophile priests and the resulting public ill will. And such high horse statements can open a feud within the religious right in which catholics have a tradition of being none too popular.

If the Pope is not a dope, he will have the good sense to tell the arch bishop to STFU before he starts endangering his fellow catholics and their tax exempt status.

 

[Moonbeam]

Originally posted by: Lemon law
The question is if this mere arch bishop is not crusin for a brusin from the catholic hierarchy. When he picks on someone as big as Giuliani he is really making a decision that
somewhat binds cardinals and even the Pope. And can endanger the separation of church and state at exactly the time when the catholic church is in deep trouble over pedophile priests and the resulting public ill will. And such high horse statements can open a feud within the religious right in which catholics have a tradition of being none too popular.

If the Pope is not a dope, he will have the good sense to tell the arch bishop to STFU before he starts endangering his fellow catholics and their tax exempt status.

You mean Catholics don't pay taxes. Geez!

 

[NoStateofMind]

Getting religious approval is just for political posturing.

 

[Drift3r]

Giuliani would of been better of supporting fondling little boys for fun then supporting abortion.

***This post was made by a recovering Catholic.***

 

[NoStateofMind]

Originally posted by: Drift3r
Giuliani would of been better of supporting fondling little boys for fun then supporting abortion.

***This post was made by a recovering Cathaholic.***

FIXED

 

[WHAMPOM]

Is Burke's opinion as worthless as an American dollar? :thumbsup:Maybe he should practice a couple nonvices like humility and silence?

 

[Lemon law]

Did a little googling of Burke. Born in 1948 so in that sense is a fairly young man. But he controversial within the catholic church and is pushing ideas that are not official church dogma. I imagine that a few Giuliani supporters are already suggesting to the Pope that his pitt bull needs to be muzzled. A sideways promotion to some office way out of public view may result if Pope Benedict is not pleased.

After all, Burke just violated the 11'th commandment.

 

[hellokeith]

Denying communion is nothing new. I cannot partake of communion at my best friends' church because I don't believe in transubstantiation.

Mark 7:8 - "You have let go of the commands of God and are holding on to the traditions of men."

In general, I'm wary of religious "leaders" who involve themselves in politics, especially from Catholic/Orthodox circles. Jesus' biggest enemies were the pharisees, same kind of people who were selling indulgences centuries later.

 

[JEDIYoda]

Originally posted by: Lemon law
Did a little googling of Burke. Born in 1948 so in that sense is a fairly young man. But he controversial within the catholic church and is pushing ideas that are not official church dogma. I imagine that a few Giuliani supporters are already suggesting to the Pope that his pitt bull needs to be muzzled. A sideways promotion to some office way out of public view may result if Pope Benedict is not pleased.

After all, Burke just violated the 11'th commandment.

The Pope is NOT concerned about a little munchkin like Giuliani!!!

 

[PokerGuy]

That guy is pretty much the perfect example of how religion and politics/government should not be mixed.....

 

[StageLeft]

Originally posted by: senseamp
I wonder if they'll stay as "principled" when it comes to their own candidate.

You shouldn't wonder. The answer is they won't.

The repubs have outdone themselves, I have to say. Their star is an anti-gun, pro-abortionist. Their work is cut out for them getting votes for this idiot, the same guy who puts a bunker in the biggest terrorist target in the country.

 

[CycloWizard]

Originally posted by: Rainsford
Sounds like that Archbishop should get his nose out of politics and spend a little more time studying up on his faith. I went to Catholic school for years, and I can never remember a concept whereby Catholics were denied communion for a sin...that's why Catholics participate in confession. Idiots like this are a big part of the reason I no longer practice.

Actually, Burke is one of the formeost theologians in the Church. The logic behind his decision (as he explained with Kerry) was that it is clear that they are committed to propagating a grave sin. If they change their views (i.e. repented), then they could receive communion again. Even though I may disagree with this approach, I have heard him speak several times (since he does Mass sometimes at the Cathedral, which is where I go) and I can say with reasonable certainty that he is far from an idiot. A bit misguided perhaps, but certainly not an idiot. He seems to strive to avoid political correctness and will call people out for doing things that are "wrong" while publically stating that they are Catholics..

He was involved more recently in another newsworthy bit where he stepped down from the board of Cardinal Glennon children's hospital because Sheryl Crow would perform at a fundraiser for the hospital. He did so because she previously championed the usage of public funding to support embryonic stem cell research in Missouri. Again, I disagree with him on this one, but he is extremely principled and consistent, even if you disagree with him.

 

[jonks]

No magic biscuits for you Jewliani!

 

[shiner]

Big deal.

I wouldn't piss on Giuliani if he was one fire and you don't see that making the news.

 

[db]

Raymond Burke: yet another ego who claims to speak for God.

Originally posted by: CycloWizard
formeost theologians...he is far from an idiot. ...he is extremely principled and consistent...

Being smart, principled and consistent does not make a person right; it just makes it easier to deceive people who are impressed.

 

[CycloWizard]

Originally posted by: db
Raymond Burke: yet another ego who claims to speak for God.

Originally posted by: CycloWizard
formeost theologians...he is far from an idiot. ...he is extremely principled and consistent...

Being smart, principled and consistent does not make a person right; it just makes it easier to deceive people who are impressed.

Just because you can pick a few words out of my post doesn't mean you understood what I said. If you had read the entire post, rather than simply cherry picking, you would have seen that I clearly stated that I disagree with him (implying that I think he's wrong). However, I admire someone who knows what he believes, is consistent in what he believs, and is willing to stand up to ridicule for what he thinks is right. Even if I think he's wrong.

 

[Lemon law]

I tend to agree with CycloWizard on much of what he says. But I am also a strong believer in separation of church and State. And Burke is taking the catholic church's tax exempt status onto extremely thin ice when he goes out of his way to meddle in politics.

What remains to be seen is basically two things (1) Will the greater catholic church tell him to shut up?---as he cannibalizes only catholics. (2) Will it ignite a religious right civil war in which all candidates become fair game? Which by extension may get theologian arguing with other theologians on politics.

For every lash there may be an equal and opposite back lash.

 

[b0mbrman]

So essentially, what I get out of this news story is that Giuliani is pro-choice...interesting

 

[CycloWizard]

Originally posted by: Lemon law
I tend to agree with CycloWizard on much of what he says. But I am also a strong believer in separation of church and State. And Burke is taking the catholic church's tax exempt status onto extremely thin ice when he goes out of his way to meddle in politics.

How is he meddling in politics? He's simply saying that he will not give one of the Church's sacraments to candidates having a certain position. This is a far cry from telling people who to vote for, especially since just about every candidate this time around fits the same bill as Giuliani as far as the Church's stances on things is concerned.

 

[Lemon law]

CycloWizard asks---How is he meddling in politics? He's simply saying that he will not give one of the Church's sacraments to candidates having a certain position. This is a far cry from telling people who to vote for, especially since just about every candidate this time around fits the same bill as Giuliani as far as the Church's stances on things is concerned.

Usually the standard Catholic candidate deflection for these questions are that they personally follow the catholic church position but cannot as a candidate for public office bind a larger population to only catholic church position. Now Burke goes a step beyond the officially sanctioned catholic position and somewhat binds those under his offices to holding the same views. That to be a good catholic you must only advocate church views in public policy and thus disqualify almost all catholics from holding public office.

But in a sense you are also right, we cannot expect the churches to remain totally silent, but its still a troubling slippery slope position that could open floodgates.

I also point out the religious right is somewhat united now. With a somewhat big tent that welcomes all Christian sects and even jews. But that has not been the US's pre WW2 position.
If you read your American history, particularly in the Jim Crow South, both Catholics and Jews
were nearly as far down the social scale as blacks. With Christ killers and that papist villain in Rome dominating the conversation. And Conklin in the North proved the message extended to more industrialized States and a national audience. Someone like Burke threatens to bring back those good old days because he can reopen old wounds largely now healed.

 

[CycloWizard]

Originally posted by: Lemon law
Usually the standard Catholic candidate deflection for these questions are that they personally follow the catholic church position but cannot as a candidate for public office bind a larger population to only catholic church position. Now Burke goes a step beyond the officially sanctioned catholic position and somewhat binds those under his offices to holding the same views. That to be a good catholic you must only advocate church views in public policy and thus disqualify almost all catholics from holding public office.

I think you're mistaken regarding the "official" Church teaching here. The Church's official statement is the following:

The inalienable right to life of every innocent human individual is a constitutive element of a civil society and its legislation. The inalienable rights of hte person must be recognize and respected by civil society and the political authority. These human rights depend neither on single individuals nor on parents; nor do they represent a concession made by society and the state; they belong to human nature and are inherent in hte person by virtue of the creative act from which the person took his origin. Among such fundamental rights one should mention in this regard every human being's right to life and physical integrity from the moment of conception until death.

The moment a positive law deprives a category of human beings of the protection which civil legislation ought to accord them, the state is denying the equality of all before the law. When the state does not place its power at the service of the rights of each citizen, and in particular of the more vulnerable, the very foundations of a state based on law are undermined... As a consequence of the respect and protection which must be ensured for the unborn child from the moment of conception, the law must provide appropriate penal sanctions for every deliberate violation of the child's rights.

Preceding this statement is another paragraph indicating that anyone complicit in abortion (including specifically politicians) is automatically excommunicated from the Church and, therefore, may not receive any sacraments. Thus, Burke is fully compliant with the Church's teachings.

Someone like Burke threatens to bring back those good old days because he can reopen old wounds largely now healed.

Wow. So if someone states what he personally believes, he should be the subject of not only ridicule, but discrimination? I would argue that the world is short many men like Burke who aren't afraid to call people out, eschewing political correctness for principle.

 

[Lemon law]

Ah yes, CycloWizard, bring all biblical arguments to their logical conclusions. Hoist thyself upon every horns of a dilemma you can find. I just submit wise churches do not do that.

 

[CycloWizard]

Originally posted by: Lemon law
Ah yes, CycloWizard, bring all biblical arguments to their logical conclusions. Hoist thyself upon every horns of a dilemma you can find. I just submit wise churches do not do that.

Where did I make a biblical argument? I quoted directly from the Catholic Catechism, which is the official book of the Church's teachings.