Bishop orders priests to read anti-Obama letter at Sunday sermons

[HomerJS]

They're not endorsing anyone, they're telling their parishioners to pray and think long and hard about who to vote for, considering the policies and positions of the church and faith.

So logically from the Catholic POV since neither candidate is against the death penalty for whom should the paritioners vote?

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

I would say Democratic churches shouldn't be doing this either, I guess I was just saying I don't think it's an equivalent issue. The amount of power exercised in the two parties and on the election as a whole is quite a bit different. Religious Republicans shape the message of the Republican party way more than religious Democrats shape their party's message.

Heres my perspective. There are a lot of religious people and they belong to the republican party. That does influence the actions of the reps and therefore some awful candidates are put forward and we see things like creationism as a substitute for evolution. I don't like that at all, however this thread explicitly complains about a single letter being read and the OP goes ballistic, not because of anything I've just mentioned, but because of church involvement. Since thats his complaint, the overt attempted manipulation of congregations by church leaders for Dems has been going on for most of my life. Effectively some black churches have been organized to be extensions of the political machine. Looking at my link I think you would find it hard to argue otherwise. I do agree that Dems are less inclined to have religion influence policy, but thats a different issue. What is relevant is churches being used to influence the outcome of elections. A de facto political entity as church is passed while the Apocalypse threatens because of a single letter. Which has a greater effect on steering voterd? I submit it's the former.

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

So logically from the Catholic POV since neither candidate is against the death penalty for whom should the paritioners vote?

Since neither party places citizens above themselves who should anyone vote for? The answer would be no one. Your question makes no sense because it's trivial. When two factors are equal one moves on to other considerations which are not.

 

[nehalem256]

Guarentee you their opposition to the death penalty won't be in the letter.

So logically from the Catholic POV since neither candidate is against the death penalty for whom should the paritioners vote?

So apparently their opposition to the death penalty is irrelevant to what candidate to vote for.

Or do you think that if candidate disagrees with you on any issue you should not vote for them?

 

[MovingTarget]

As a Catholic, I find that letter offensive. Aside from the obvious fact that the bishop has his head up his ass with regard to Catholic social teaching (which requires that people support pro-life policies for after a person is born as well), I do not want to be told how to vote. My church is exhibit A why politics should be left out of the pulpit. The church is disengenuously screaming "OMGRELIGIOUSFREEDOM" when it is nothing of the sort. It just isn't getting what it wants with regard to public policy. Quite frankly, it is a slap in the face to Christians/Catholics in places where they are really persecuted.

 

[brandonb]

I remember the last election the priest basically saying in the sermon before election day to keep in mind the values of the church. Saying when we vote, keep in mind the candidates who support abortion, capital punishment, euthanasia, and so on.

No candidate matched what they said, nor did they mention names or political parties or anything. They just said keep in mind who you are voting for.

Simple as that.

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

As a Catholic, I find that letter offensive. Aside from the obvious fact that the bishop has his head up his ass with regard to Catholic social teaching (which requires that people support pro-life policies for after a person is born as well), I do not want to be told how to vote. My church is exhibit A why politics should be left out of the pulpit. The church is disengenuously screaming "OMGRELIGIOUSFREEDOM" when it is nothing of the sort. It just isn't getting what it wants with regard to public policy. Quite frankly, it is a slap in the face to Christians/Catholics in places where they are really persecuted.

It's a matter of degree. The post immediately below you? I have no problem with that. The "remember boys and girls you don't want to burn in hell for your decision" sort of thing? No. Neither the bishop nor the Democrat churches should be rounding up votes for either side.

 

[HomerJS]

I remember the last election the priest basically saying in the sermon before election day to keep in mind the values of the church. Saying when we vote, keep in mind the candidates who support abortion, capital punishment, euthanasia, and so on.

No candidate matched what they said, nor did they mention names or political parties or anything. They just said keep in mind who you are voting for.

Simple as that.

did they mention child molesters?......ooops

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

did they mention child molesters?......ooops

So your function here is to troll. Gotcha. Do the black churches mention the NDAA or wiretapping issues?

Yes, I'm pointing and laughing.

 

[umbrella39]

As a Catholic, I find that letter offensive. Aside from the obvious fact that the bishop has his head up his ass with regard to Catholic social teaching (which requires that people support pro-life policies for after a person is born as well), I do not want to be told how to vote. My church is exhibit A why politics should be left out of the pulpit. The church is disengenuously screaming "OMGRELIGIOUSFREEDOM" when it is nothing of the sort. It just isn't getting what it wants with regard to public policy. Quite frankly, it is a slap in the face to Christians/Catholics in places where they are really persecuted.

This 100%. I always avoid Sunday masses every other October and go on Saturday night due to the influx of political line-toeing nonsense that is preached from the pulpit on Sunday leading up to the elections.

 

[Atomic Playboy]

"Now I'm not telling you who to vote for. But if you vote for this guy, you're going to hell." Clearly they're not taking sides.

Honestly, I'm all in favor of ending the tax-exempt status of religious institutions. Religion is supposed to be separate from politics, but in practice, it just isn't. It's not possible for people to separate something which forms the basis of their identity from their idea of what public policy should be, and it's idiotic to think that most people are capable of doing so. Why hold churches to an untenable standard? If some loon wants to tell his congregation that a vote for Obama is a one-way ticket to hell, that's his perogative; he shouldn't get a free ride from the government to do so though.

 

[Atreus21]

Of course you don't see any problem with this... Because you are right winged... Why would you see a problem with it?

That's exactly "THE PROBLEM" people like you go on your marry way with no clue what the fuck is going on here...

If the churches want to tell people to vote for Romney (yeah like) don't give me the BS they aren't suggesting that. Look, I'm an atheist I see this crap happening all the time. The church is influencing the voting public ... They are suppose to remain neutral and not just come out and read between the lines on how to VOTE! If they do, they should lose their tax exempt status plain and simple. If you want to turn a blind eye to this and make another excuse for Jesus ... well that's your problem...

It's only obvious what's happening here...

And by nuetral, you mean irrelevant and powerless. Unless of course they're in favor of your guy.

 

[Hayabusa Rider]

"Now I'm not telling you who to vote for. But if you vote for this guy, you're going to hell." Clearly they're not taking sides.

Honestly, I'm all in favor of ending the tax-exempt status of religious institutions. Religion is supposed to be separate from politics, but in practice, it just isn't. It's not possible for people to separate something which forms the basis of their identity from their idea of what public policy should be, and it's idiotic to think that most people are capable of doing so. Why hold churches to an untenable standard? If some loon wants to tell his congregation that a vote for Obama is a one-way ticket to hell, that's his perogative; he shouldn't get a free ride from the government to do so though.

I'm for ending tax exemptions for political organizations too.

 

[Todd33]

Get rid of tax exempt status for all them. Let them deduct charitable donation just like the rest of us, the whole thing is a sham anyhow.

 

[3chordcharlie]

And why are churches supposed to be neutral?



Michael

Why are churches supposed to be tax exempt?

 

[brandonb]

did they mention child molesters?......ooops

This message is hidden because HomerJS is on your ignore list. ooops

 

[Darwin333]

http://www.mcclatchydc.com/2012/10/31/173269/bishop-orders-priests-to-read.html

Everyone board the Jesus Bus were gonna go do some vot'en! Fuck the church... I say we end their tax exempt status right now...

Would you have the same opinion if it was an anti-Romney letter instead?

 

[Darwin333]

Of course you don't see any problem with this... Because you are right winged... Why would you see a problem with it?

That's exactly "THE PROBLEM" people like you go on your marry way with no clue what the fuck is going on here...

If the churches want to tell people to vote for Romney (yeah like) don't give me the BS they aren't suggesting that. Look, I'm an atheist I see this crap happening all the time. The church is influencing the voting public ... They are suppose to remain neutral and not just come out and read between the lines on how to VOTE! If they do, they should lose their tax exempt status plain and simple. If you want to turn a blind eye to this and make another excuse for Jesus ... well that's your problem...

It's only obvious what's happening here...

While I am an atheist too, what exactly says that religions are supposed to be "neutral" and completely stay out of politics? Since when do we say that any organization, regardless of their tax status, can't try to further their own agenda?

 

[Atomic Playboy]

I'm for ending tax exemptions for political organizations too.

:thumbsup:

 

[Phokus]

They are riding a fine line, but appear to be just on right side of it as they are not telling the congregation who to vote for explicitly.

Again, I am not telling you which party or which candidates to vote for or against," he said. "But I am saying that you need to think and pray very carefully about your vote, because a vote for a candidate who promotes actions or behaviors that are intrinsically evil and gravely sinful makes you morally complicit and places the eternal salvation of your own soul in serious jeopardy."

I find it hilarious that the Catholic church, which is basically a pro-kiddie rape/pro-aids in africa organization is calling anyone else evil.

 

[peonyu]

So logically from the Catholic POV since neither candidate is against the death penalty for whom should the paritioners vote?

Eye for a eye, tooth for a tooth ? Catholics should be pro death penalty considering their holy book is all for equal punishment to a perp if convicted of a crime...You took someones leg off then you lose yours aswell and so on up to the death penalty if you killed someone. The difference is the Catholic Church recently has become "modern" just like our Politicians, if the wind is blowing to the east today and the death penalty is looked down upon by most, then the Pope in all his "faith" says the death penalty is bad. If the wind blows the other way next year then its now good..

Its no surprise that the Catholic Church has few people who respect them these days, if you cant stand by your beliefs then there is nothing to see.

 

[peonyu]

I find it hilarious that the Catholic church, which is basically a pro-kiddie rape/pro-aids in africa organization is calling anyone else evil.

They are almost as bad as Islam is in Africa, you are right.

 

[zinfamous]

And why are churches supposed to be neutral?

Michael

I don't think they are supposed to be neutral.

....well, except for the tax exempt status.

I get it to the degree that majority of parishes actually do provide a public good through charity, and many of them do it quite well--this makes sense.

However, the politicizing you see in many parishes--black or white, I don't give a damn--really needs to be questioned in light of the government teat from which they all suckle.

 

[EagleKeeper]

I'll never forget the Priest screaming from the pulpit in Louisiana that "is a sin to vote Democrat!!!"

"You must vote for Bush for the sake of your soul, country and church!!!"

I'm sure they are doing the same thing now for Romney

I am sure that all the hole in wall type churches are doing the same

 

[Moonbeam]

The Catholic Bishop maybe ought to worry about his own soul supporting somebody who can believe this shit:

Description in the Book of Abraham





Facsimile No. 2 from the Book of Abraham, which Smith said discusses Kolob. The part Smith said refers to Kolob is numbered by a "1" in the center.
The first published reference to Kolob is found in the Book of Abraham, first published in the 1842 newspaper Times and Seasons and now included within the Pearl of Great Price as part of the canon of Mormonism. The Book of Abraham was dictated in 1836 by Latter Day Saint movement founder Joseph Smith, Jr. after he purchased a set of Egyptian scrolls that accompanied a mummy exhibition. According to Smith, the scrolls described a vision of Abraham, in which Abraham:
"saw the stars, that they were very great, and that one of them was nearest unto the throne of God;....and the name of the great one is Kolob, because it is near unto me, for I am the Lord thy God: I have set this one to govern all those which belong to the same order as that upon which thou standest."[5]
In an explanation of an Egyptian hypocephalus that was part of the Joseph Smith Papyri, Joseph Smith interpreted one set of hieroglyphics as representing:
"Kolob, signifying the first creation, nearest to the celestial, or the residence of God. First in government, the last pertaining to the measurement of time. The measurement according to celestial time, which celestial time signifies one day to a cubit. One day in Kolob is equal to a thousand years according to the measurement of this earth, which is called by the Egyptians Jah-oh-eh."[6]
The Book of Abraham describes a hierarchy of heavenly bodies,[7] including the earth, its moon, and the sun, each with different movements and measurements of time, where at the pinnacle, the slowest-rotating body is Kolob, where one Kolob-day corresponds to 1000 earth-years,[8] with similarities to 2 Peter 3:8 which says "one day is with the Lord as a thousand years". Additional, similar information about Kolob is found in the Kirtland Egyptian Papers, constituting manuscripts in the handwriting of Smith and his scribes.

[edit] Mormon exegesis and speculation

According to the traditional, literal LDS interpretation of the Book of Abraham, Kolob is an actual star or planet in this universe that is, or is near, the physical throne of God. According to Joseph Smith, Jr., this star was discovered by Methuselah and Abraham[9] by looking through the Urim and Thummim, a set of seer stones bound into a pair of spectacles.[10] Mormon leader and historian B. H. Roberts (1857–1933) interpreted Smith's statements to say that the solar system and its governing "planet" the sun, revolved around a star known as Kae-e-vanrash, which itself revolved with its own solar system around a star called Kli-flos-is-es or Hah-ko-kau-beam, which themselves revolve around Kolob, which he characterized as "the great centre of that part of the universe to which our planetary system belongs".[11] He was confident that this hierarchy of stars orbiting other stars would be confirmed by astronomers.[12]

The literal interpretation of Kolob as an actual star or planet has significant formative impact on LDS belief and criticism, leading to conceptions such as that God dwells within this universe, and that the Biblical creation is a creation of the local earth, solar system, or galaxy, rather than the entire known physical reality.

[edit] Star or planet?

The Book of Abraham is unclear about Kolob being a star or a planet,[2] and LDS writings have taken positions on either side of this issue. One part of the Book of Abraham states that Abraham "saw the stars ... and that one of them was nearest unto the throne of God; ... and the name of the great one is Kolob."[5] Thus, Kolob is referred to as a "star". However, the book defines the word Kokaubeam (a transliteration of the Hebrew "כּוֹכָבִים" [c.f., Gen. 15:5]) as meaning "all the great lights, which were in the firmament of heaven".[13] This would appear to include planets as among the "stars",[14] and apparently, the earth itself as considered to be among these "stars".[15] In addition, the Book of Abraham text appear to classify Kolob as among a hierarchy of "planets".[16] On the other hand, in Joseph Smith's Egyptian Alphabet and Grammar, he classifies Kolob as one of twelve "fixed stars", in distinction with fifteen "moving planets".[17] The term fixed star generally refers to an astronomical object that does not seem to move across the sky, but may have a slow proper motion as discovered in 1718 by Edmund Halley. Though "fixed", according to Smith, Kolob moves "swifter than the rest of the twelve fixed stars".[18] Moreover, in the Book of Abraham, Smith refers to "fixed planets or stars",[19] implying that some planets may be "fixed". He also refers to the sun as a "governing planet"[20] further complicating the terminology. Therefore, there is no consensus on whether Joseph Smith knew Kolob to be a planet or a star as those terms are used in modern astronomy.

Writers in the Latter Day Saint movement have taken positions on both sides of the issue of whether Kolob is a star or a planet. Brigham Young, second President of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, spoke of Kolob as a planet.[21] Likewise, LDS Apostles John Taylor,[22] Orson Pratt (a mathematician with an interest in astronomy),[23] Orson F. Whitney,[24] and Alvin R. Dyer[25] referred to Kolob as a planet. Other LDS theologians have also viewed Kolob as a planet.[26] Several other LDS writers have referred to Kolob as a star, including B. H. Roberts[27] and President David O. McKay.[28]

[edit] Birthplace for the earth

According to several LDS writers (such as Cleon Skousen in his book The First 2000 Years), the earth was created near Kolob over a period of 6000 years, and then moved to its present position in our solar system.[29][30][31] This hypothesis is based on oral comments attributed to Joseph Smith, Jr.[26] The hypothesis is also based on a passage from the Book of Abraham stating that in the Garden of Eden, time was measured "after the Lord's time, which was after the time of Kolob; for as yet the Gods had not appointed to Adam his reckoning".[32] According to the hypothesis, the reason that Earth time was measured in Kolob time was because the earth was physically located near Kolob. As a corollary, some LDS writers argue that at the end times, the earth will be plucked from the solar system and returned to its original orbit near Kolob.[33]

Using traditional creationist reasoning, influential LDS leader Apostle Bruce R. McConkie came to a different conclusion, arguing that during the first "day" of creation (not necessarily a 1000-year "day" in Kolob time; with a "day" referring to a phase of creation), the earth was formed and placed in orbit around the sun.[34]

The idea that the earth was formed elsewhere and then migrated to orbit around the sun differs from the scientific explanation of the earth's formation. According to scientific consensus, the earth formed in orbit around the sun about 4.5 billion years ago by accretion from a protoplanetary disk, and remained near its original orbit until the present.[35]

[edit] Speculative astronomy

Several LDS authors have attempted to situate Kolob within modern astronomy. Two LDS authors have published books speculating that Kolob is a star at the Galactic Center, Sagittarius A*, of our own Galaxy.[36] This view also had the support of several former general authorities, including J. Reuben Clark,[37] George Reynolds and Janne M. Sjödahl.[38] In the mid-19th century, early efforts to find a central single "central sun" in the galaxy[39] resulted in failure.

Another LDS author has hypothesized that Kolob exists outside the Milky Way Galaxy at a place called the "metagalactic center", and that this galaxy and other galaxies rotate around it.[40] Within mainstream astronomy, the idea of a metagalactic center was once assumed,[41] but has been abandoned because on large scales, the expanding universe has no gravitational center.

Another LDS author has speculated that Kolob is Polaris.[42]

[edit] Metaphorical exegesis

In addition to the literal interpretation of Kolob as an actual heavenly body, the LDS Church has proposed that Kolob is also "a symbol of Jesus Christ", in that like Kolob, Jesus "governs" all the stars and planets similar to the earth.[43]

A metaphorical interpretation suggests that Kolob may be construed as a metaphor for Jesus rather than as an actual planet or star. The symbolic interpretation was explained by Hugh Nibley in The Temple and The Cosmos. Advocates of the symbolic interpretation believe it harmonizes better with other LDS beliefs, and with beliefs in the greater Christian community, as it does not require that God have a physical throne within this universe.

According to LDS author, James Ferrell, the metaphorical interpretation is supported by the parallel construction of the passages[44] in Abraham chapter three:
2 And I saw the stars, that they were very great, and that one of them was nearest unto the throne of God; and there were many great ones which were near unto it; 3 And the Lord said unto me: These are the governing ones; and the name of the great one is Kolob, because it is near unto me, for I am the Lord thy God: I have set this one to govern all...
After intervening passages that discuss how some souls are greater than others, just as some stars are greater than others, the theme is repeated in reference to Jesus:
23 And God saw these souls that they were good, and he stood in the midst of them, and he said: These I will make my rulers; for he stood among those that were spirits, and he saw that they were good... 24 And there stood one among them that was like unto God...
The metaphor of stars as souls and Jesus as the greatest star is similar to the way Lucifer is referred to as a star fallen from heaven in Isaiah of the Old Testament.[45]

[edit] Analysis and criticism

[edit] Origin

According to Joseph Smith, Jr. biographer Fawn Brodie, Smith's idea of Kolob may have been derived from the "throne of God" idea found in Thomas Dick's The Philosophy of a Future State,[46] which Brodie said Smith "had recently been reading" before dictating the Book of Abraham, and which "made a lasting impression" on him.[47]

Rejecting the theory that the Kolob doctrine is of 19th-century origin, some LDS scholars have sought to link the Kolob doctrine to ancient astronomy. Gee, Hamblin & Peterson (2006) have sought to show that this astronomy is more consistent with ancient heliocentrism than with 19th-century Copernican and Newtonian astronomy, and thus carries with it the misconceptions of ancient astronomy.[48] For example, in their interpretation, Kolob is the highest and slowest-moving of a series of concentric heavenly spheres centered around the earth.[48] These authors believe that Joseph Smith, in the 19th century, would not have made this heliocentric "mistake" about Kolob, and therefore, they argue that the Book of Abraham is of ancient origin.[48]

[edit] Validity of Smith's translation of the Book of Abraham

Main article: Book of Abraham

Modern Egyptologists[49] have made an analysis of the facsimile, a copy of the extant original vignette from the Kirtland Egyptian Papers, and with fragments of the papyrus of the type from which the Book of Abraham was translated. The facsimile is widely regarded as a typical Hypocephalus, and represent only a small portion of the papyri in Joseph Smith's possession.[50] LDS apologist Hugh Nibley states that "we have learned that the papyri are of relatively late date—but the Mormons have always known that—we have seen some of the papyri that were in Smith's possession, but there is no evidence that we have seen them all, and it is apparent that only one small piece among them has any direct bearing on the Book of Abraham – and what connection is remains a complete mystery. The Egyptologists [have] supplied some interesting footnotes to the text, but these offer poor enough pickings for anyone seeking occasion against the Prophet."[51]

[edit] Popular expressions

[edit] "If You Could Hie to Kolob", the hymn

"If You Could Hie to Kolob"[52] (hie, to hasten) is a Latter-day Saint hymn that was written by the early Mormon W. W. Phelps. The music is taken from a well-known folk tune known as "Dives and Lazarus". It was originally published in 1842 in Times and Seasons and is hymn number 284 in the 1985 hymnal for The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. The hymn makes only a single reference to Kolob, in the first line of the hymn (from which the hymn's title is derived).

The hymn reflects doctrines unique to Mormonism, such as the eternal nature of spirit (including man's spirit) and matter. It also conveys doctrines elaborated by Joseph Smith, Jr., the first Latter-day Saint prophet, about the plurality of gods and eternal progression.

[edit] Kolob as the inspiration for Kobol in Battlestar Galactica

Some of the elements of the two Battlestar Galactica science-fiction television shows seem to be derived from the Mormon beliefs of its creator and chief producer, Glen A. Larson. In both the original series from 1978, and the 2003 new series, the planet Kobol is the ancient and distant mother world of the entire human race and the planet where life began, and the "Lords of Kobol" are sacred figures to the human race. They are treated as elders or patriarchs in the old series, and versions of the Twelve Olympians in the new series. According to Jana Riess, author of What Would Buffy Do?,[53] "Kobol" is an anagram of "Kolob", only one of many plot points Larson has borrowed from Mormonism.[54]

[edit] Other instances
Kolob was the name of a short-lived record label/production company founded by the Osmond Brothers in the 1970s. Released in association with MGM Records (which was absorbed by Polydor in 1976), the logo consisted of a hand holding a ball of clay resembling the planet. The Osmonds also recorded an album called The Plan which deals with themes in Mormonism related to Kolob.
Zion National Park has a region known as Kolob Canyons.
Daniel Steven Crafts has a movement called The Great Arches of Kolob in his Southwest Sinfonia, originally named after Kolob Canyons in Zion National Park.
Kolob was also the name of the alien probe in the children's sci-fi series Children of the Dog Star, transmitted in 1984 in New Zealand.
In Levi Peterson's The Backslider, released in 1986, the LDS protagonist, feeling distant from God, wonders "how God is feeling this morning up on the royal star of Kolob."[55]
The musical The Book of Mormon (by the creators of South Park, Trey Parker and Matt Stone, and Avenue Q collaborator Robert Lopez) includes a reference to the planet Kolob.[56]