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Bin Laden's Limo driver walks

tomywishbone

Golden Member
I'll never sleep a wink, knowing OBL's Limo driver is on the rampage. I hope we convict his shoe cobbler.

Judges at Guantanamo throw out 2 cases By ANDREW O. SELSKY, Associated Press Writer, 1 hour, 6 minutes ago.

GUANTANAMO BAY NAVAL BASE, Cuba - With one word ? "unlawful" ? the only two war-crimes trials against Guantanamo detainees fell apart in a single day, marking a stunning setback to Washington's attempts to try dozens of detainees in military court. T

Two military judges dismissed charges Monday against a Guantanamo detainee accused of chauffeuring Osama bin Laden and another who allegedly killed a U.S. soldier in Afghanistan.

Salim Ahmed Hamdan of Yemen and Omar Khadr, a Canadian who was 15 when he was arrested on an Afghan battlefield, were the only two of the roughly 380 prisoners at Guantanamo charged with crimes under a reconstituted military trial system.

Monday's rulings stand to complicate efforts by the United States to try other suspected al-Qaida and Taliban figures in military courts.

Defense attorneys and legal experts blamed the rush by Congress and President Bush last year to restore the war-crimes trials after the U.S. Supreme Court threw out the previous system, declaring it unconstitutional. In a remarkable coincidence, it was Hamdan's lawsuit that wound up in the Supreme Court.

In both of Monday's cases, the judges ruled that the new legislation says only "unlawful enemy combatants" can be tried by the military trials, known as commissions. But Khadr and Hamdan previously had been identified by military panels here only as enemy combatants, lacking the critical "unlawful" designation.

"The fundamental problem is that the law was not carefully written," said Madeline Morris, a Duke University law professor. "It was rushed through in a flurry of political pressure from the White House ... and it is quite riddled with internal contradictions and anomalies."

Prosecuting attorneys in both cases indicated they would appeal the dismissals. But the court designated to hear the appeals ? known as the court of military commissions review ? doesn't even exist yet, said Marine Col. Dwight Sullivan, chief of military defense attorneys at Guantanamo Bay.

Army Maj. Beth Kubala, spokeswoman for the Office of Military Commissions that organizes the trials, said "the public should make no assumption about the future of military commissions."

She said they will continue to operate openly and fairly and added that dismissals of the charges "reflect that the military judges operate independently."

She declined to comment on how the Office of Military Commissions planned to respond to the setbacks, saying she didn't want to speculate.

Military prosecutors declined to appear before reporters after their cases collapsed.

The distinction between classifications of enemy combatants is important because if they were "lawful," they would be entitled to prisoner of war status under the Geneva Conventions.

A Pentagon spokesman said the issue was little more than semantics.

Navy Cmdr. Jeffrey Gordon said the entire Guantanamo system deals with people who act as "unlawful enemy combatants," operating outside any internationally recognized military, without uniforms or other things that make them party to the Geneva Conventions.

"It is our belief that the concept was implicit that all the Guantanamo detainees who were designated as 'enemy combatants' ... were in fact unlawful," Gordon said.

But Morris said the Military Commissions Act defines a lawful enemy combatant, in addition to a uniformed fighter belonging to a regular force ? as "a member of a militia, volunteer corps or organized resistance movement belonging to a state party engaged in such hostilities and who meets four additional criteria."

The dismissals of the cases do not spell freedom for Khadr or Hamdan.

"It is very difficult when practical conditions for him don't change," said Joseph McMillan, one of Hamdan's attorneys.

Still, Hamdan's military attorney, Navy Lt. Cmdr. Charles Swift, said his client "is relieved" by Allred's ruling.

"He hopes he gets a fair trial and, like the rest of us, is patiently waiting for it," Swift told reporters.

Sullivan, the chief of military defense attorneys at Guantanamo Bay, said the dismissal of Khadr's case could spell the end of the war-crimes trial system. He said none of the detainees held at this isolated military base in southeast Cuba has been found to be an "unlawful" enemy combatant.

"It is not just a technicality; it's the latest demonstration that this newest system just does not work," Sullivan told journalists. "It is a system of justice that does not comport with American values."

Sullivan said reclassifying detainees as "unlawful" would require a time-consuming overhaul of the Combatant Status Review Tribunals that first classified them as enemy combatants. But Gregory McNeal, a law professor at Pennsylvania State University, said nothing prevents the Defense Department from reconvening the hearings for detainees headed to trial and declaring them to be "unlawful" combatants.

Carl Tobias, a law professor at the University of Richmond, said a retrial is possible because Brownback dismissed Khadr's case without prejudice. Hamdan's case also was dismissed without prejudice.

U.S. Rep. Jerrold Nadler, a New York Democrat, said he plans to hold hearings on the Military Commissions Act, which he said is "riddled with problems and created a process that operates outside the rule of law ? it has crippled our ability to deal with the real criminals still being held at Guantanamo."

The only other detainee charged under the new system, Australian David Hicks, pleaded guilty in March to providing material support to al-Qaida and is serving a nine-month sentence in Australia. Sullivan said the dismissal of the Khadr case raised questions about the legitimacy of Hicks' conviction.

But Hicks' lawyer, David McLeod, said Tuesday that his client was unlikely to challenge his conviction now that he had the certainty of a release date.

"I don't think it's helpful to go down that path at the moment for David," McLeod told Australian Broadcasting Corp. radio. "He has chose a route and he proposes to continue down that route."

Hicks' father Terry Hicks agreed with the lawyer, adding that his son could he ordered to serve the suspended six years and three months balance of his sentence if he appealed and lost.

___

 
Yeah, OBL rides through the mountains of Pakistan and Afghanistan in a sleek, black, stretch limousine. Sure. :roll:

Since this guy is a shoe repairman, would you feel safe hosting him for a few months? You know, until he's back on his feet?
 
Originally posted by: biggestmuff
Yeah, OBL rides through the mountains of Pakistan and Afghanistan in a sleek, black, stretch limousine. Sure. :roll:

Since this guy is a shoe repairman, would you feel safe hosting him for a few months? You know, until he's back on his feet?
Our own military courts threw out the charges against him. He has committed no crime in the eyes of the law.
 
Originally posted by: biggestmuff
Yeah, OBL rides through the mountains of Pakistan and Afghanistan in a sleek, black, stretch limousine. Sure. :roll:

Since this guy is a shoe repairman, would you feel safe hosting him for a few months? You know, until he's back on his feet?

😀 I had to read it twice, but... 🙂:beer:. Now, if his Habbadasher is paroled early; if it suits my wife, he can stay with me.
 
The title of this thread is false and totally misleading. The defendant didn't walk at all. Because of continued legal defects in this trial process, the trial was canceled. He's back at Gitmo where he will sit until the US gets a bona fide legal system in place.
 
Would some of you seriously celebrate the release of a member of the Taliban who killed a US soldier? Do you also picture OBL's driver/bodyguard to be some sort of innocent saint?

Well too bad for you that they are both right back down in GITMO where they belong, eh?... 😛

The system is obviously flawed... I just hope they fix it soon so that we can get to hanging the ones who deserve to be hanged.
 
Originally posted by: jpeyton
Originally posted by: biggestmuff
Yeah, OBL rides through the mountains of Pakistan and Afghanistan in a sleek, black, stretch limousine. Sure. :roll:

Since this guy is a shoe repairman, would you feel safe hosting him for a few months? You know, until he's back on his feet?
Our own military courts threw out the charges against him. He has committed no crime in the eyes of the law.
the way the law was written is flawed.

The charges were tossed out due to a technicality.

 
Originally posted by: EagleKeeper
Originally posted by: jpeyton
Originally posted by: biggestmuff
Yeah, OBL rides through the mountains of Pakistan and Afghanistan in a sleek, black, stretch limousine. Sure. :roll:

Since this guy is a shoe repairman, would you feel safe hosting him for a few months? You know, until he's back on his feet?
Our own military courts threw out the charges against him. He has committed no crime in the eyes of the law.
the way the law was written is flawed.

The charges were tossed out due to a technicality.

Yep; had to do with the classification into a status of a "lawful" enemy combatant vs. an "unlawful" one. All garbage if you ask me; if we had just shot em over there where they were picked up then they wouldn't be wasting space in Gitmo.
 
Originally posted by: palehorse74
Would some of you seriously celebrate the release of a member of the Taliban who killed a US soldier?
On the first one, to some degree yes depending on the circumstances, because that's how war works.

You appear to be justifying trying him criminally merely because he killed a US soldier, when the reality is that's a perfectly legitimate part of war in of itself. Each sides soldiers are trying to the kill the other. If that is the only reason for holding him, at most you can argue that we're still fighting the Taliban and he can be held as a prisoner of war. The current way we are handling some of these cases is simply a disgrace and a violation of the Geneva Conventions.
 
Originally posted by: Sinsear
Yep; had to do with the classification into a status of a "lawful" enemy combatant vs. an "unlawful" one. All garbage if you ask me; if we had just shot em over there where they were picked up then they wouldn't be wasting space in Gitmo.
The problem is in the case of plenty of the Taliban, the US has no convincing case that they are in any reasonable way unlawful combatants. At best a bunch of hand waving and vague accusations are being given to justify the policy.
 
Originally posted by: Aegeon
Originally posted by: Sinsear
Yep; had to do with the classification into a status of a "lawful" enemy combatant vs. an "unlawful" one. All garbage if you ask me; if we had just shot em over there where they were picked up then they wouldn't be wasting space in Gitmo.
The problem is in the case of plenty of the Taliban, the US has no convincing case that they are in any reasonable way unlawful combatants. At best a bunch of hand waving and vague accusations are being given to justify the policy.

Yep; case or no it still woulda been easier to shoot em on the battlefield than capture them. They woulda been dead and there wouldn't be all this crying about trials, fairness, and "hug-a-terrorist" telethons for the animals detained at Gitmo.
 
Originally posted by: Aimster
U.S invaded Afghanistan. If the man was fighting invading troops then nothing is wrong with what he did.

Precisely; he did nothing wrong. However, he shoulda been shot where he stood, not brought over here.
 
NM others already addressed this...

I love the way the libs on here celibrate every time something like this happens.
 
Its certainly unfair to hold ANYBODY without a charge for years and years. And now we find out the only charge they can come up with is unsupportable garbage. Reading between the lines, I think our military is tired of GWB&co. garbage and is sending that message. Justice delayed is always justice denied. And with the rigged system here, they can keep holding these people, come up with new charges, and repeat until they get a conviction. Which makes the USA an international laughing stock when it comes to human rights.
 
Originally posted by: ProfJohn
NM others already addressed this...

I love the way the libs on here celibrate every time something like this happens.

Yep we're all celibrating 🙂 It's not like the cons aren't at least as predictable 😛
 
Originally posted by: Sinsear
Originally posted by: Aimster
U.S invaded Afghanistan. If the man was fighting invading troops then nothing is wrong with what he did.

Precisely; he did nothing wrong. However, he shoulda been shot where he stood, not brought over here.





We get it, already...you want them all shot.

:roll:

 
Yes I DO personally celebrate it when something like this happens. Everyone else here should too. Did you guys not read the article?

It's not a technicality, its super important. If they are LAWFUL combatants, that means that they are protected under the Geneva Convention... which we would have been egregiously violating in reference to these detainees for years and years. If they are UNLAWFUL then these sorts of (I still think BS) commissions would cover them by law. If someone you are trying is subject to the Geneva Convention or not is an extremely important distinction, because it determines if we are violating international treaties to which we are signatory. The Pentagon's case that "well, you should have just known that they were all unlawful since we were keeping them at Guantanamo" is total BS... especially since a fair number of them (mostly taliban fighters) likely meet the definition of lawful enemy combatant.

Even slimier is the Justice Department's reaction to this: "The Constitution entrusts to the President the responsibility to safeguard the nation?s security. The Department of Justice will continue to defend the President?s ability and authority under the Constitution to fulfil that duty." as if the Evil Courts were fighting to deprive the President of his ability to defend the US.

Every person here should celebrate it when the courts force our administration to respect the rule of law. It's an infrequent enough occurance that you won't have to shift your schedules around much to do so. They aren't releasing bad people so that they can go terrorize Us Poor Civilians, they are making sure that Bush can't get away with some sort of kangaroo court. You should thank them for this, not condemn them.
 
Originally posted by: Sinsear
Originally posted by: Aimster
U.S invaded Afghanistan. If the man was fighting invading troops then nothing is wrong with what he did.

Precisely; he did nothing wrong. However, he shoulda been shot where he stood, not brought over here.
Easier said than done. Our troops have to learn how to aim first.
 
Originally posted by: Sinsear
Originally posted by: Aimster
U.S invaded Afghanistan. If the man was fighting invading troops then nothing is wrong with what he did.

Precisely; he did nothing wrong. However, he shoulda been shot where he stood, not brought over here.

You realize how horrible an idea that is right? Not only is it monsterous and profoundly evil from a moral standpoint, it's stupid from a practical point.

If the enemy realizes that you're going to shoot him no matter what... he's far more likely to just fight to the death instead of surrendering. Do you konw how much harder it would have been to beat Iraq the last 2 times we've fought them, along with the Taliban in Afghanistan if instead of surrendering to us in droves they instead fought to the last man? You WANT to give the enemy incentives to surrender to you instead of fight.
 
Eskimo, if he is a ?lawful combatant? (which technically he can?t be unless he was fighting for a government) then we should declare him a POW and place him a POW camp until the end of the war.

Would that satisfy you?
 
Originally posted by: jpeyton
Originally posted by: Sinsear
Originally posted by: Aimster
U.S invaded Afghanistan. If the man was fighting invading troops then nothing is wrong with what he did.

Precisely; he did nothing wrong. However, he shoulda been shot where he stood, not brought over here.
Easier said than done. Our troops have to learn how to aim first.
what the heck is that supposed to mean?
 
Originally posted by: eskimospy
Yes I DO personally celebrate it when something like this happens. Everyone else here should too. Did you guys not read the article?

It's not a technicality, its super important. If they are LAWFUL combatants, that means that they are protected under the Geneva Convention... which we would have been egregiously violating in reference to these detainees for years and years. If they are UNLAWFUL then these sorts of (I still think BS) commissions would cover them by law. If someone you are trying is subject to the Geneva Convention or not is an extremely important distinction, because it determines if we are violating international treaties to which we are signatory. The Pentagon's case that "well, you should have just known that they were all unlawful since we were keeping them at Guantanamo" is total BS... especially since a fair number of them (mostly taliban fighters) likely meet the definition of lawful enemy combatant.

Even slimier is the Justice Department's reaction to this: "The Constitution entrusts to the President the responsibility to safeguard the nation?s security. The Department of Justice will continue to defend the President?s ability and authority under the Constitution to fulfil that duty." as if the Evil Courts were fighting to deprive the President of his ability to defend the US.

Every person here should celebrate it when the courts force our administration to respect the rule of law. It's an infrequent enough occurance that you won't have to shift your schedules around much to do so. They aren't releasing bad people so that they can go terrorize Us Poor Civilians, they are making sure that Bush can't get away with some sort of kangaroo court. You should thank them for this, not condemn them.


These people did just what they were paid for, and that was to apply the law as written. They aren't "legal" combatants because they weren't designated "illegal". Right now they have no status. They could be considered either and it wasn't the Court's mandate to determine which, therefore the case was dismissed without prejudice.

The real meaning of this is "We do not at this time have the ability to rule regarding guilt or innocence. Therefore at this time we will not do so."

At some future date they can be retried or released, but someone is going to have to define once and for all a unified standard that can be applied. That is the real good news here.
 
Originally posted by: ProfJohn
Eskimo, if he is a ?lawful combatant? (which technically he can?t be unless he was fighting for a government) then we should declare him a POW and place him a POW camp until the end of the war.

Would that satisfy you?

this is not an official war so that doesnt work

edit,
oh and the afghanistan war and the iraqi war are both over, its the aftermath that is the problem
 
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