Bill O'Reilly its time for gun control

[Artdeco]

I wish gun-enthusiasts or profiteers could divorce a lot of the nonsense rhetoric from their worthwhile discussion.

I am open to some of the arguments being made on behalf of the 2nd Amendment, but all the stupid jab thrown around really undercut my engagement.

But I suppose P&N is gonna P&N.

Why? Seriously? You're not going to change your mind, and frankly changing your mind won't make a bit of difference in the real world. The talking heads on TV say AR15's need to be banned, ignoring a ton of data that suggests they're so under represented in gun homicides, it will make virtually no statistical difference, and the public freaks out. I'm not ignorant enough to think the 2nd won't be further modified, the constitution was designed to be relatively dynamic, with many checks and balances.

So again, why do you want to further discuss something you'll likely never change your opinion on? As I said, I'm convinced of the inevitably of the laws getting a level more stupid and restrictive, as I think nearly all gun owners are. If past practice is any indicator, that will leave nearly 10 million AR15's in civilian hands, a confiscation is unthinkable for at least 10-20 years, so again, what's the point?

The legislators will be chasing their tails for decades, mass shooters will move on to a Mini 14, and if/when that's banned, semi automatic pistols, it'll take 50 years and multiple confiscations to achieve what the left wants, then we can discuss knives...

 

[SlowSpyder]

I don't see our military today firing on citizens. But, as history has shown us, that is exactly what happens during civil unrest where the government feels threatened in many cases. We even had a civil war with brothers fighting brothers.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kent_State_shootings

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Blair_Mountain

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bonus_Army

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criti...ane_Katrina#Confiscation_of_civilian_firearms

With the charged partisan atmosphere we have today, you really don't think a situation could ever escalate to where the military / police fire on citizens? Learn from history, don't ignore it.

 

[Artdeco]

Kent state stands out as a goddamn mess, firing on unarmed students...

 

[jackstar7]

Why? Seriously? You're not going to change your mind, and frankly changing your mind won't make a bit of difference in the real world. The talking heads on TV say AR15's need to be banned, ignoring a ton of data that suggests they're so under represented in gun homicides, it will make virtually no statistical difference, and the public freaks out. I'm not ignorant enough to think the 2nd won't be further modified, the constitution was designed to be relatively dynamic, with many checks and balances.

So again, why do you want to further discuss something you'll likely never change your opinion on? As I said, I'm convinced of the inevitably of the laws getting a level more stupid and restrictive, as I think nearly all gun owners are. If past practice is any indicator, that will leave nearly 10 million AR15's in civilian hands, a confiscation is unthinkable for at least 10-20 years, so again, what's the point?

The legislators will be chasing their tails for decades, mass shooters will move on to a Mini 14, and if/when that's banned, semi automatic pistols, it'll take 50 years and multiple confiscations to achieve what the left wants, then we can discuss knives...

You telling me I won't change my mind is delightful.

P&N to the max, bro.

 

[Artdeco]

You telling me I won't change my mind is delightful.

P&N to the max, bro.

Well, will you? I see no evidence to the contrary, and I've already accepted we'll get new laws, so what's the point?

 

[jackstar7]

I already stated that I might. I'm open to arguments.

While I will never own a gun, there are lots of things I'll never own that I have no interest in stopping other people from owning. I do wish there was more honesty from gun owners when it comes to why they own them... but I suppose that's just too much to ask for.

 

[SlowSpyder]

I already stated that I might. I'm open to arguments.

While I will never own a gun, there are lots of things I'll never own that I have no interest in stopping other people from owning. I do wish there was more honesty from gun owners when it comes to why they own them... but I suppose that's just too much to ask for.

If us pro-gunners aren't being honest, what lies do you think we're spreading? I rarely carry but have a CCL because I support the 2nd amendment. I own guns because I grew up around them, they aren't taboo to me, and as a hobby I really enjoy shooting them. I've gone into the woods just to shoot. I've gone hunting, too. I also like the fact that I could use them to defend my home if for some unlikely reason I had to. What lies do you see here, any? What lies do you think the average gun owner / pro-gunner spreads?

 

[glenn1]

I already stated that I might. I'm open to arguments.

While I will never own a gun, there are lots of things I'll never own that I have no interest in stopping other people from owning. I do wish there was more honesty from gun owners when it comes to why they own them... but I suppose that's just too much to ask for.

We don't owe you an explanation about why we own guns either as a prerequisite of exercising our right or keeping it going forward. And if given the answers could vary from "I enjoy shooting sports" to "I'm a hunter" to "I enjoy collecting them" to "I'm prepping for the apocalypse" all the way to "I enjoy that it scares the shit out of Jackstar7 and other progressives that I own a gun" and they're all equally valid reasons.

 

[jackstar7]

We don't owe you an explanation about why we own guns either as a prerequisite of exercising our right or keeping it going forward. And if given the answers could vary from "I enjoy shooting sports" to "I'm a hunter" to "I enjoy collecting them" to "I'm prepping for the apocalypse" all the way to "I enjoy that it scares the shit out of Jackstar7 and other progressives that I own a gun" and they're all equally valid reasons.

I didn't say you owe me anything, including a reason that's "valid". It's just my preference that people who want to have guns be honest about the reasons, even if only to themselves.

But again, dickishness is a well-tread path on this subject, so no surprise you went there.

 

[SlowSpyder]

I didn't say you owe me anything, including a reason that's "valid". It's just my preference that people who want to have guns be honest about the reasons, even if only to themselves.

But again, dickishness is a well-tread path on this subject, so no surprise you went there.

What "dickishness" are you talking about? The conversation is going alright, if anything it is kind of civil by P&N standards when it comes to a polarizing subject like guns. You seem very defensive... Like I've said earlier, I think the anti-gun side is driven by emotion and propaganda, not logic.

Plenty of logical examples of why guns are not the devil they are made out to be by some have been plainly laid out in this thread, and I think you don't like that. Nothing more, nothing less. Just my $.02.

 

[jackstar7]

If us pro-gunners aren't being honest, what lies do you think we're spreading? I rarely carry but have a CCL because I support the 2nd amendment. I own guns because I grew up around them, they aren't taboo to me, and as a hobby I really enjoy shooting them. I've gone into the woods just to shoot. I've gone hunting, too. I also like the fact that I could use them to defend my home if for some unlikely reason I had to. What lies do you see here, any? What lies do you think the average gun owner / pro-gunner spreads?

It's not about lies being spread. It's about personal integrity and the reasons people want to own guns.

And it's not about all gun-owners or enthusiasts. And clearly, this doesn't apply to you. You seem honest and reasonable about your ownership and concerns about that right.

I've just dealt with people who replaced honesty with hostility as though it were a reasonable substitute.

There are people who basically need guns. Farmers protecting their livestock and land. Subsistence hunters. Some other use cases of that nature. Then there are a lot of folks who want/like guns because it's basically entertainment/a hobby. I have hobbies aplenty, so I get that. There are people who are fearful for their safety who prefer a gun as a means of protection/security. While it might not be effective or even make a person safer, they certainly have the right to own a gun and that justification might be relatively weak, but it's valid and generally reasonable.

Then there are people who claim it is for X, when it's really about Y. Those people just make me sad.

It's not about the guns, so much as it's about the people.

 

[glenn1]

I didn't say you owe me anything, including a reason that's "valid". It's just my preference that people who want to have guns be honest about the reasons, even if only to themselves.

But again, dickishness is a well-tread path on this subject, so no surprise you went there.

Being a dick isn't a reason to restrict guns. Nor is being dishonest about your motivations. Hell, if that was our standards then plenty of people would never exercise any rights. Do you think most women are honest to themselves and say "I'm getting this abortion because I'm selfish" and how much of a jerk would you be to even ask the question of her in the first place? Part of the reason why we have a Bill of Rights in the first place is so that we don't need to create a justification or reason for doing the things that make us free, no matter what someone else might think of how we use that freedom.

 

[jackstar7]

What "dickishness" are you talking about? The conversation is going alright, if anything it is kind of civil by P&N standards when it comes to a polarizing subject like guns. You seem very defensive... Like I've said earlier, I think the anti-gun side is driven by emotion and propaganda, not logic.

Plenty of logical examples of why guns are not the devil they are made out to be by some have been plainly laid out in this thread, and I think you don't like that. Nothing more, nothing less. Just my $.02.

Being told that guns scare me as a silly example is needlessly making something personal that doesn't remotely need to be. So to me: dickish.

Not trying to be defensive at all. Just calling it like I see it.

 

[jackstar7]

Being a dick isn't a reason to restrict guns. Nor is being dishonest about your motivations. Hell, if that was our standards then plenty of people would never exercise any rights. Do you think most women are honest to themselves and say "I'm getting this abortion because I'm selfish" and how much of a jerk would you be to even ask the question of her in the first place? Part of the reason why we have a Bill of Rights in the first place is so that we don't need to create a justification or reason for doing the things that make us free, no matter what someone else might think of how we use that freedom.

Once again, I'm not trying to restrict anything based on dickishness. But when you're making arguments and I say I'm open to hearing them, when the dickishness comes in I'm going to care less about the argument. Just a sticking point about mutual respect I try to stick to when I get into what seems like a worthwhile discussion. Silly on the internet, I know.

The reasons don't matter in relation to the right. They matter with regards to the responsibility. Especially with how often people cite "responsible gun-owners" in their evidence of various things.

 

[buckshot24]

Then there are people who claim it is for X, when it's really about Y. Those people just make me sad.

It's not about the guns, so much as it's about the people.

Who are these people and why do you know it isn't for X?

 

[jackstar7]

Who are these people and why do you know it isn't for X?

Sorry, no.

 

[buckshot24]

Sorry, no.

Why don't you just put me on ignore instead of these useless responses?

Who are these people?

 

[ivwshane]

Why don't you just put me on ignore instead of these useless responses?

Who are these people?

Take your buckshatting elsewhere.

 

[jackstar7]

Why don't you just put me on ignore instead of these useless responses?

Who are these people?

Still no. Sorry.

 

[buckshot24]

Still no. Sorry.

I'm trying to understand your point. Your choice.

 

[jackstar7]

I'm trying to understand your point. Your choice.

I don't trust that what you say is true. Sorry.

 

[buckshot24]

I don't trust that what you say is true. Sorry.

Like I said, your choice. Just put me on ignore if you can't trust what I say.

 

[Artdeco]

jackstar7, the honest truth about why I have a gun is because my first wife's ex husband assaulted me years ago when I asked him not to take their kid anywhere in his car when he was drunk. Texas had just successfully prosecuted a woman for allowing exactly the same thing. I had no gun, he took the child, the police caught him an hour later. I had still been assaulted, and my stepdaughter was at serious risk for that hour. I was 2 years out of college and anti gun at the time.

After the assault, I purchased my first handgun, I have since stopped 2 burglaries, and another assault personally, the police were called immediately, their response time was 45 minutes or longer.

These incidents happened over several decades, but they all were pretty crappy to experience.

I grew up with guns, and belonged to rifle club in HS and have done competitive shooting. I have a couple AR's that I'll keep forever, I built them personally, and they have about $1,000 worth of titanium bits and pieces in them, they were fun to build and they're fun to shoot at the range. They'll function as a defensive weapon, but honestly, semi auto handguns or revolvers are my preference.

I recently started long range shooting with some seriously cool rifles, and I reload my own ammo.

I have a concealed permit, for decades now, and when I had the opportunity during the second assault, I could have killed someone and had essentially no repercussions, I decided to not do so, and to be honest, I'd prefer to never have to make that choice again. When you have loved ones and stuff to protect, it's somewhat comforting to know I have the means, and it's also a hobby, planning my next AR build is challenging and a social networking thing as well.

 

[SlowSpyder]

Being told that guns scare me as a silly example is needlessly making something personal that doesn't remotely need to be. So to me: dickish.

Not trying to be defensive at all. Just calling it like I see it.

I'd like to address this, but before I do, what are your thoughts on gun control? What do you think needs to be changed / banned / more regulated?

 

[MongGrel]

Kent state stands out as a goddamn mess, firing on unarmed students...

Kent State had always stuck out as a mess, was more worried about things like private contractors that were running around in New Orleans during the Katrina aftermath myself in more current times.

You do not need the National Guard if somehow you can hire Mercs to work legally inside the US these days.

Not sure if it is still a thing, probably is.