Bill Gates Says State Pensions Draining Education Money

[IronWing]

Who are these folks that you expect to pony up and pay, the millions on unemployment but still own homes and have to pay property taxes which directly fund most local government like schools, the families that have jobs and are barely scraping by, or perhaps the rich who somehow everyone thinks should pay more yet end up paying less because of their influence with the politicians who write the laws full of loopholes that they exploit.

No, the reason this country is where it is today is because of the everyone for themselves attitude not looking at the long term consequences of their decisions,

the profit for me first the hell with everyone else mentality.


For the love of money is the root of all evil.

These pensions are already owed to these workers, a debt. This isn't some nice to do gift. They earned the money, it is theirs. If we're looking at stealing pensions then we need to look at defaulting on bonds first. Bonds were money intentionally put at risk by the lenders. Pensions were not.

Underfunding pension liabilities in order to provide tax cuts is the equivalent of bankers raiding deposits to hand out dividends to shareholders.

 

[wuliheron]

These pensions are already owed to these workers, a debt. This isn't some nice to do gift. They earned the money, it is theirs. If we're looking at stealing pensions then we need to look at defaulting on bonds first. Bonds were money intentionally put at risk by the lenders. Pensions were not.

Underfunding pension liabilities in order to provide tax cuts is the equivalent of bankers raiding deposits to hand out dividends to shareholders.

You obviously just don't understand the concept of robbing Peter to pay Paul. It actually adds to your credibility as a loan risk when people know you will do anything to pay back the loan. If Americans and their government want to take out any more loans it's pretty obvious we need to prove to people that we aren't squeamish about screwing the little guy. Not that we really have a great deal more we can do in that department.

 

[Mr. Pedantic]

You aren't going to create a successful society by treating the weak and the old like some kind of inconvenience.

But they are. And you're even less likely to create a successful society by giving benefits to the has-beens and screwing over the people who are actually going to provide value to the economy, now and in coming years.

 

[wuliheron]

But they are. And you're even less likely to create a successful society by giving benefits to the has-beens and screwing over the people who are actually going to provide value to the economy, now and in coming years.

My thoughts exactly. In fact, I'd say allowing them to live in the first place is a drain on society in general. If we let them to sponge off charity they will still provide a drain on society taking up valuable real estate, spreading diseases, and whatnot.

Instead, we can kill them all, grind them up, and feed them to cattle and chickens. That way we avoid spreading any diseases among the productive population and actually put their worthless lives to some useful purpose. It would also save us the expense of burying them and protein is the most expensive ingredient of cattle feed.

This isn't even a new idea, but was first proposed 300 years ago by Johnathan Swift as a solution to the Irish potato famine. He suggested eating Irish babies, and received thousands of letters from wealthy Britons asking where they could buy their Irish babies and find recipes. So I know the idea could be wildly popular, just like some of Adolf Hitler's ideas were wildly popular, and with todays technology I just know we can make it work and, perhaps, even earn a profit! If it's ok for the poor to say things like "Eat the rich" then I say NO! "Eat the poor", it's much thriftier.

 

[Fern]

These pensions are already owed to these workers, a debt.

And how in the hell is that different from a loan? Like a bond, isn't that "owed"?

This isn't some nice to do gift.

Looks like that to a lot of us, although we'd call it 'excessive compensation'.

They earned the money, it is theirs. If we're looking at stealing pensions then we need to look at defaulting on bonds first. Bonds were money intentionally put at risk by the lenders. Pensions were not.

Dumb analogy.

You realize the bond holders gave people THEIR money. Read that again - GAVE people their money.

It was their OWN money. Money they already owned.

These employees want SOMEONE'S else's money.

See the difference?

Underfunding pension liabilities in order to provide tax cuts is the equivalent of bankers raiding deposits to hand out dividends to shareholders.

To call this analogy an 'apple-to-oranges' is an insult to that expression.

So, if you don't take money from one person by force (i.e., taxes) and then give it to another person, it's the same as stealing? I.e., by not stealing, we are stealing?

You must be an unabashed progressive - 'up' is 'down', 'stealing' is 'giving' etc.

Good Lord!

Fern

 

[IronWing]

And how in the hell is that different from a loan? A bond?



Looks like that to a lot of us, although we'd call it 'excessive compensation'.




Dumb analogy.

You realize the bond holders gave people THEIR money. Read that again - GAVE people their money.

It was their OWN money. Money they already owned.

These employees want SOMEONE'S else's money.

See the difference?

To call this analogy an 'apple-to-oranges' is an insult to that expression.

So, if you don't take money from one person by force (i.e., taxes) and then give it to another person, it's the same as stealing? I.e., by not stealing, we are stealing?

You must be an unabashed progressive - 'up' is 'down', 'stealing' is 'giving' etc.

Good Lord!

Fern[/QUOTE]
The pension money does belong to the workers who earned it. It is part of earned compensation. If politicians want to negotiate future benefit cuts for future work that is fine and probably a good idea. But to cut pensions already earned is theft and fraud. It is no different than refusing to pay wages already earned or skipping out on the tab at a restaurant or any other form of stealing you care to think of. That these worker work for a government agency matters not one bit, stealing pensions already earned is theft whether it is a private corporation doing the stealing or politicians.

 

[soundforbjt]

You realize where alot of the money to fund these pensions went don't you?

People like Madoff and Wall Street lost their pensions, they should be paying.

 

[epidemis]

To call this analogy an 'apple-to-oranges' is an insult to that expression.

So, if you don't take money from one person by force (i.e., taxes) and then give it to another person, it's the same as stealing? I.e., by not stealing, we are stealing?

You must be an unabashed progressive - 'up' is 'down', 'stealing' is 'giving' etc.

Good Lord!

Fern

The pension money does belong to the workers who earned it. It is part of earned compensation. If politicians want to negotiate future benefit cuts for future work that is fine and probably a good idea. But to cut pensions already earned is theft and fraud. It is no different than refusing to pay wages already earned or skipping out on the tab at a restaurant or any other form of stealing you care to think of. That these worker work for a government agency matters not one bit, stealing pensions already earned is theft whether it is a private corporation doing the stealing or politicians.[/QUOTE]

Those people got conned. There's no money at all for them. Tax'ing is stealing.

 

[IGBT]

the concept of "free education" is hold over from the 1800's era of the "unsettled continent". It's time to realize the US is a settled continent and society. If you want education you need to pay for it. Every step of the way. It's not the tax payers responsibility. Nobody owes you a living or education.

 

[CallMeJoe]

...What this country needs is competition in the form of charter schools. Sadly, this is something that the "progressive" and the unions are against.

I and many others you call "progressives" support charter schools; you fail to appreciate that there is a difference between charter schools and the racially segregated or dogmatic religious schools that many "conservatives" wish to support through voucher programs.

 

[zsdersw]

It should be noted that Wisconsin's state pension system is among the best in the country.. with $80 billion in assets. They've cut benefits to retirees again this year.. and managed their investments well. I have no problem with seeking more in employee contributions, but don't lose sight of the fact that WI's state Employee Trust Fund is an excellently managed/maintained system.

 

[CallMeJoe]

...What this country needs is competition in the form of charter schools. Sadly, this is something that the "progressive" and the unions are against.

I should note that charter schools are the first target of South Carolina's new "conservative" Tea-Party-approved Governor in cutting the state education budget.
You'd still love her, though; she makes all the right anti-union noises.

 

[Mr. Pedantic]

I and many others you call "progressives" support charter schools; you fail to appreciate that there is a difference between charter schools and the racially segregated or dogmatic religious schools that many "conservatives" wish to support through voucher programs.

What, actually, does progressivism mean?

 

[CallMeJoe]

What, actually, does progressivism mean?

"Progressive" once meant Roosevelt Republicans. These days, to Glenn Beck followers and to Patranus it's just a euphemism for "Communist".

 

[manimal]

It should be noted that Wisconsin's state pension system is among the best in the country.. with $80 billion in assets. They've cut benefits to retirees again this year.. and managed their investments well. I have no problem with seeking more in employee contributions, but don't lose sight of the fact that WI's state Employee Trust Fund is an excellently managed/maintained system.

Great point.

 

[Darwin333]

Politicians intentionally underfunded public pension systems for decades in order to deliver tax cuts while ignoring the growing liability. Time for folks to pony up and pay the taxes they didn't pay earlier.

lol, you are obviously ignorant about the sheer size of the problem.

The states simply can't tax enough to cover the shortfalls. Furthermore, the union leaders hold some responsibility as well for claiming to be able to deliver, as well as basing their members payments on, the mathematically impossible.

The hard truth of the matter is that people who are owed pensions will get the short end of the stick. The only question is when and how much worse of a situation the individual states put themselves into while trying to kick the can. Like I keep saying, eventually the math always wins.

 

[Darwin333]

These pensions are already owed to these workers, a debt. This isn't some nice to do gift. They earned the money, it is theirs. If we're looking at stealing pensions then we need to look at defaulting on bonds first. Bonds were money intentionally put at risk by the lenders. Pensions were not.

Underfunding pension liabilities in order to provide tax cuts is the equivalent of bankers raiding deposits to hand out dividends to shareholders.

The problem with that is if you fuck the bondholders you won't be able to borrow (reasonably at least) for quite a long time. That is a real bad position to be put in and you will more than likely still fuck the pensions eventually. All you would be doing is putting off the inevitable for a while at a huge cost.

Trust me, the States will do whatever they can to not fuck the bondholders. Besides, I think that bondholders get "first dibs" by law. I am going off of memory and I don't know a lot about the subject but I think that is a bid reason why states can sell bonds so cheaply. If the above is in fact true and a State fucks the bondholders first anyway then they will likely fuck the rest of the states as well which means I doubt it would be allowed to happen.

 

[Svnla]

Yes, smoothly. The concession was made, already, and without fuss. What you're seeing now has nothing to do with it.

Gov. Walker is trying to eliminate the bargaining except wages because if he doesn't do it, it will come back and bite him next year or the year after that. Don't take my words for it, others already said plenty in this thread = http://forums.anandtech.com/showthread.php?t=2143736&page=10

My first post in this thread is still stand, we as a nation could not afford the status quo of entitlement programs.

....do something about the big fat entitlement programs....

 

[sandorski]

Gov. Walker is trying to eliminate the bargaining except wages because if he doesn't do it, it will come back and bite him next year or the year after that. Don't take my words for it, others already said plenty in this thread = http://forums.anandtech.com/showthread.php?t=2143736&page=10

My first post in this thread is still stand, we as a nation could not afford the status quo of entitlement programs.

/facepalm

 

[TheDoc9]

I didn't read past the first few posts, I found it too sickening. So this elitist arrogant asshole billionaire, comes in and says to take these people's retirement money that they were promised. And you assholes agree.

It's just like the goerge carlin skit! And you assholes are cheering him on! They caused the problem, and they want you to pay for it! hahaha

 

[ShawnD1]

I didn't read past the first few posts, I found it too sickening. So this elitist arrogant asshole billionaire, comes in and says to take these people's retirement money that they were promised. And you assholes agree.

You're supposed to get money that you put in, not 10x more than you put in.

Right now my pension is 10% of gross. I'll be 65 in 40 years and current stats say I'll live until I'm 80 which would mean 15 years of retirement.
10% * 40 years = X% * 15 years
X = 26.6% pension for 15 years

Do you know what a teacher or a police officer pension is? Oh shit, some of them retire at 55 instead of 65 and they get WAAAAY more than 26.6% pension. Don't you wish your job was like that? You pay $1 in pension then they give you 40x that?

 

[wuliheron]

I didn't read past the first few posts, I found it too sickening. So this elitist arrogant asshole billionaire, comes in and says to take these people's retirement money that they were promised. And you assholes agree.

It's just like the goerge carlin skit! And you assholes are cheering him on! They caused the problem, and they want you to pay for it! hahaha

That's capitalism baby! No holds barred fighting where shit rolls down hill and the objective is often to just make sure it hits someone else (anyone else!). Hence, America's love affair with winners even if they are cheats and liars. If you don't pay attention to how they manage to avoid the shit then you might be next.

 

[Darwin333]

I didn't read past the first few posts, I found it too sickening. So this elitist arrogant asshole billionaire, comes in and says to take these people's retirement money that they were promised. And you assholes agree.

It's just like the goerge carlin skit! And you assholes are cheering him on! They caused the problem, and they want you to pay for it! hahaha

It likely has more to do with his math skills than being an "elitist arrogant asshole billionaire".

 

[Herr Kutz]

How about Bill Gates give more of his money to fund education in America rather than sending it 3rd world countries where they continue their cycles of coups, genocide, and famine.

 

[PoAT.PaN]

A lot of our policies were predicated on us continuing to have lots of children. Both of my parents had 8 brothers and sisters. I don't know anyone my age with more than 3 siblings in the family. Over a 50% reduction in tax base in 2-3 generations. All these policies were banking on a large tax base to disperse the cost. All that is history and the programs are falling apart.