Big Expensive Diesels...thumbsdown!

[skyking]

I would so buy that car in the US if it were available. with the 6 speed and aggressive (proper) driving it was fun and capable and had a cavernous trunk and excellent economy. My foot was in it and I still got ~40ish mpg.

 

[DivideBYZero]

Yeah, I have no idea why the current gen Mondeo doesn't get sold in the US. It's much bigger than the Contour/Mystique version of the nineties and it drives very well. Again, you get nailed by Ford.

 

[PricklyPete]

Yeah, I have no idea why the current gen Mondeo doesn't get sold in the US. It's much bigger than the Contour/Mystique version of the nineties and it drives very well. Again, you get nailed by Ford.

It's always been linked to costs. the Mondeo is a more expensive to build (and arguably a better car) than the Fusion...so Ford would have to do some significant cost cutting to bring it over...likely losing the appeal of making it a global vehicle. We'll have to see if the next iteration of the Mondeo and Fusion are the same given Ford's push to make global vehicles instead of market specific vehicles.

 

[Stefan Payne]

Almost all of my colleagues are German (I work for a German company) and all of them are constantly trying to convince me that diesel is the ONLY way to drive...well unless you have a Porsche. I argue (for fun) all the time about this with them.

Well, there are some Dieselfans out here, but you'll need to make your own oppinion, you shouldn't care too much about what others say...

I don't either, so I'm driving an old japanese car with an automatic transmission...
I need a quite good noise and a smooth running engine...

I don't know what Stefan's issue is with Diesel, but most of it appears to be FUD.

Why do you think it's FUD?!

It's not that there is just one, bright, side, there is also a dark side, so the reality is something grey and inbetween.

It's not that the Diesels are the best in the world and there is no other thing.
The main advantage of the diesels is the fuel economy and the torque.
But the torque is needet 'cause you can't rev a Diesel higher than 5000rpm, that's a technical limit, so you need torque for more power.
And a 2liter Diesel without turbo is beaten by a 1.4 litre gasoline engine.

Oh and one thing: if you'll think about buying a Toyota Diesel around 2000, don't!
There were problems with the clutch and flywheel, wich weren't strong enogh for the torque...

And on the subject of diesel Hybrids, our 120d is a 'Mild Hybrid', i.e., it doesn't have an extra electric motor, but does stop/start (and it has a FAP filter, so that's another of Stefan's myths debunked), has regenerative braking, etc.

Sorry, but that's not correct, what you're saying about a mild hybrid...
The electric motor is needed to be a hybrid, that's why it's a hybrid!

A mild hybrid is the (old) Honda Civic hybrid -> combustion engine with a small electric motor, that supports the combustion one...

So it's just a car with a start/stop automatic...

Reliability of diesels usually outstrips gas by a long shot. I've also driven the VW 1.9TDI a lot and it has plenty of power. The rev band is ALWAYS smaller on a diesel, so I'm not really sure what he's on about. Our 120d revs to 5K max, but full torque comes in at 1.5kRPM (260ft/lb!!) and stays there till the red line.

As I said, I live in germany and diesel engines are more common here, so more defects happen.

And they do happen!
Not on all cars but on some, the turbo defects are one thing.
The (old) TDIs suffer from coked fuel injection valves for example.
That's nothing that will happen but it could happen.

And everything depends on how you drive your car, how long does it run.

I don't know how it's over in the US but here it's not uncommon that you drive a car for 10km (or about 10min) or less.

Diesel is great, FEEL THE TORQUE!

It's not the torque that matters it's the power...

PS: the Diesel engine was originally designed to run on almost everything that's a fluid and burnable.
Such as olive oil...
Wich you can drive on older (not direkt injection!) Diesels...

PS: The Diesels I've driven:
1.9 TDI/66kW in a 99 Golf 3 Variant (wagon)
1.9 TDI/66kW in a 99 Golf 4 TDI Automatic
1.9 TDI with 105PS in a Passat Wagon (3C)
2.0 D4D/81kW in a 2001 Avensis wagon
And the 2.5l V6 TDI with 110kW (150HP) in a AFAIR 99 Passat (3B) Wagon.

The gasolines:
Mazda DW-13B in a 86 RX7 FC (NA)
Toyota 7M-GTE
1.4l VAG with 60PS (97 Golf3), 1.4l/16V VW with 55kW (98 Golf4), 1.4l/16V VAG with 80PS (2007 Fabia)
And some older 1.8l/55kW and 1.6/55kW VAG Engines in some Golf MK3.

And well, I don't like the Diesels, the Toyota D4D i liked most of the Diesels...

 

[JoeBleed]

@JoeBleed
Well the 2.0 TDI DPF has other problems...

Here in Germany the fuel consumtion is really bad, about 8-10l/100km Diesel (well that's more a 1.4 TSI would need), don't know if it's fixed though.

And there are problems with the material of the cylinder head (BHG are also common) on the 2.0 TDI with 170HP...

Haven't driven a 2.0 TDI yet but the drivability of the 1.9l TDis is quite poor due to the small rev band where you've got power...

PS: diesels are here in Germany quite common, sadly...

Yea, hear in the US, VW only imports a very limited diesel motor option. for instance. in the Jetta/Bora, Gulf, and Rabit, before 07 the PD Tdis were only BEW and BRM engine codes. 100HP and sadly i forget the factory torque. 177 ft/lb i think. I don't remember much about the 2.0 TDI here for the passhat.

The new ones for Jettas and such are 170HP (if i remember right) but are said to get about the same mileage as mine does. So its more power and less emissions at roughly the same fuel economy. Decent trade off though i would be happy with the same 100 or so HP with better fuel economy. As for the more plentiful options in other countries, you can only figure with less emissions using these DPFs that the efficiency goes down. Something has to suffer. 🙁

As for the driveability of the 1.9s, to me i don't find it a problem, mine revs to past redline with no problem. Acceleration is great for a 100HP car. I certainly don't slow traffic down accelerating. Usually people are in my way. Passing is essay. As for the older ALH 90HP VE pump motors, they are ok, and with simple easy mods and/or chip tunning they are excellent. Then there are nozzle replacements that can be done and turbo swaps to make a hell of a little 4cyl power block.

As for problems for the new motors, i don't even know the engine codes for them here, i can only look to Europe and see what you folks there are experiencing as DPFs have been out there a little longer and been in real world use.

 

[DivideBYZero]

Well, there are some Dieselfans out here, but you'll need to make your own oppinion, you shouldn't care too much about what others say...

I don't either, so I'm driving an old japanese car with an automatic transmission...
I need a quite good noise and a smooth running engine...

Why do you think it's FUD?!

It's not that there is just one, bright, side, there is also a dark side, so the reality is something grey and inbetween.

It's not that the Diesels are the best in the world and there is no other thing.
The main advantage of the diesels is the fuel economy and the torque.
But the torque is needet 'cause you can't rev a Diesel higher than 5000rpm, that's a technical limit, so you need torque for more power.
And a 2liter Diesel without turbo is beaten by a 1.4 litre gasoline engine.

Oh and one thing: if you'll think about buying a Toyota Diesel around 2000, don't!
There were problems with the clutch and flywheel, wich weren't strong enogh for the torque...


Sorry, but that's not correct, what you're saying about a mild hybrid...
The electric motor is needed to be a hybrid, that's why it's a hybrid!

A mild hybrid is the (old) Honda Civic hybrid -> combustion engine with a small electric motor, that supports the combustion one...

So it's just a car with a start/stop automatic...

As I said, I live in germany and diesel engines are more common here, so more defects happen.

And they do happen!
Not on all cars but on some, the turbo defects are one thing.
The (old) TDIs suffer from coked fuel injection valves for example.
That's nothing that will happen but it could happen.

And everything depends on how you drive your car, how long does it run.

I don't know how it's over in the US but here it's not uncommon that you drive a car for 10km (or about 10min) or less.

It's not the torque that matters it's the power...

PS: the Diesel engine was originally designed to run on almost everything that's a fluid and burnable.
Such as olive oil...
Wich you can drive on older (not direkt injection!) Diesels...

PS: The Diesels I've driven:
1.9 TDI/66kW in a 99 Golf 3 Variant (wagon)
1.9 TDI/66kW in a 99 Golf 4 TDI Automatic
1.9 TDI with 105PS in a Passat Wagon (3C)
2.0 D4D/81kW in a 2001 Avensis wagon
And the 2.5l V6 TDI with 110kW (150HP) in a AFAIR 99 Passat (3B) Wagon.

The gasolines:
Mazda DW-13B in a 86 RX7 FC (NA)
Toyota 7M-GTE
1.4l VAG with 60PS (97 Golf3), 1.4l/16V VW with 55kW (98 Golf4), 1.4l/16V VAG with 80PS (2007 Fabia)
And some older 1.8l/55kW and 1.6/55kW VAG Engines in some Golf MK3.

And well, I don't like the Diesels, the Toyota D4D i liked most of the Diesels...

WTF. I'm not going to list all the engine types I've driven as I don't have all day and there is a 64kb limit on posts...

Who cares about rev limits? It's just numbers. My M3 revs to 8k RPM, my 120d to 5k. With the taller gearing a diesel has the rev limit is of no concern. I have no problem driving either car from one day to the next, i.e., the problem is in your mind.

As for power, my 180PS/177hp 120d has way more power than your puny Japanese gas vehicle and is capable of 144Mph and 0-60(100km/h) in 7.2 seconds.

As for Mild Hybrid, all BMW Efficient Dynamics based cars are considered mild hybrids. Calling a ten year old Honda a mild Hybrid must be your idea of a joke.

http://www.hybridcars.com/types-systems/hybrid-terms.html

And I live in the UK, BTW, so I'm more than aware of diesels and their reliability, every other car on the road here is Diesel.

 

[JoeBleed]

Stefan Payne, to the coked fuel injectors. I've seen it more predominate here with people trying to run crappy wvo and not really paying attention the conditions they do so. With out doing this it seems it is rare, for here, and only on much higher mileage vehicles.

It still does build up like you mentioned, but takes much longer and there are chemicals you can run that help clean it off before it gets bad. Diesel Purger is a very popular one, though i've never used it. It is more suited to clean the injectors after they have build up. But don't think this only happens to diesel injectors. It is also common on gasoline injectors. Quality of fuel, and in my opinion, driving habits make a big difference for this.

Here in the US drives are usually longer unless you live in a city or near work, but in the cases where you would usually only do short drives, i do recommend people not get diesel. Short trips are bad on any motor, but i feel they are worse on diesels.

 

[PricklyPete]

...
The new ones for Jettas and such are 170HP (if i remember right) but are said to get about the same mileage as mine does. ...

They send us the 140HP here in the states...not the performance oriented 170HP that is available in Europe.

 

[JoeBleed]

ah yea, i couldn't remember for sure. I'm not looking to buy one so i haven't kept up with these as closely.

 

[PhoKingGuy]

@JoeBleed
Well the 2.0 TDI DPF has other problems...

Here in Germany the fuel consumtion is really bad, about 8-10l/100km Diesel (well that's more a 1.4 TSI would need), don't know if it's fixed though.

And there are problems with the material of the cylinder head (BHG are also common) on the 2.0 TDI with 170HP...

Haven't driven a 2.0 TDI yet but the drivability of the 1.9l TDis is quite poor due to the small rev band where you've got power...

PS: diesels are here in Germany quite common, sadly...

From a future owner of a Jetta TDI and from someone who lives on tdiclub, you are full of shit

 

[kalrith]

Why would you be shocked at the cost? You're buying a $67k Mercedes. Everything for that car is going to be expensive even if it's the same tech that's used in cheaper vehicles.

Are you saying that any expensive vehicle will be expensive to maintain? AFAIK that's true of the German luxury vehicles but not necessarily true of Lexus and Cadillac.

Thats what I'm counting on, as long as you can pass inspections in the states that have them. By temporarily reactivating it. I know current diesel owners are into removing emissions crap to get more performance, I dont see this being any different.

I wouldn't even consider one of these diesels if I couldn't get a performance chip to fool the sensor. My state still has inspections, but they only do emissions testing in the St. Louis area.

Edit: I think the problem with diesels in the US is getting them to pass the requirements in all 50 states. This costs more money (since the European engines can't just be imported) and sacrifices gas mileage. The combination results in a vehicle with a price premium that might never be regained from the gas savings compared with the gas-engine counterparts.

 

[Stefan Payne]

They send us the 140HP here in the states...not the performance oriented 170HP that is available in Europe.

Well, now you know why VAG made that decision...
The 140HP version hasn't the problems of the 170HP, as far as I know...

@PhoKingGuy
I could link to a german car forum, where many 140PS DPF owners are complaining about fuel consumtion, if you'd like.
AFAIR they drove Tourans (don't know if it's available in the US), in MPG we talk about 39.2 MPG (6l/100km) expected and 26.14 MPG in reality.

@kalrith
Yes, that is indeed a problem, especially since the euro norms for emissions are different for gasoline and diesel engines...

 

[PhoKingGuy]

Well, now you know why VAG made that decision...
The 140HP version hasn't the problems of the 170HP, as far as I know...

@PhoKingGuy
I could link to a german car forum, where many 140PS DPF owners are complaining about fuel consumtion, if you'd like.
AFAIR they drove Tourans (don't know if it's available in the US), in MPG we talk about 39.2 MPG (6l/100km) expected and 26.14 MPG in reality.

@kalrith
Yes, that is indeed a problem, especially since the euro norms for emissions are different for gasoline and diesel engines...

People here have been getting about 37mpg mixed, which is pretty good. Hell even the demo car at the dealer has a combined average of 35, and im sure people were ragging on it the entire time.

The only real problem here has been the emissions computer going haywire because of the varying quality of US ULS diesel. People have been complaining of codes thrown when they use cheap quality fuel, there supposedly an ECU update on the way for it.

Other than that theres just isolated problems, but nothing major. Theres someone on TDIclub with 90k on his 2008 already and hes had nothing at all wrong.

 

[Stefan Payne]

@PhoKingGuy
I don't know since when the 2.0 TDI DPF is on the market in the US, but I think that this problem may be fixed for the US version.
The real problem is that VW says 'your problem, you need an exptert report (wich costs about 3000€uros), we won't do anything about it.
Others send a man who takes the car for a drive and then they decide what to do, if you're complaining about the fuel consumption...

And it's just the version with the particle filter, wich consumes (sometimes??) 1-1,5 litre more than the same engine without that filter...

 

[PhoKingGuy]

@PhoKingGuy
I don't know since when the 2.0 TDI DPF is on the market in the US, but I think that this problem may be fixed for the US version.
The real problem is that VW says 'your problem, you need an exptert report (wich costs about 3000€uros), we won't do anything about it.
Others send a man who takes the car for a drive and then they decide what to do, if you're complaining about the fuel consumption...

And it's just the version with the particle filter, wich consumes (sometimes??) 1-1,5 litre more than the same engine without that filter...

Thats a consequence of the DPF, it uses diesel to run the temps high to regen the catalyst every now and then. Its transparent to the user though.

California emissions are some of the most stringent in the world, if I get 37 mpg mixed, ill be a happy camper.