Big Brother watching. Good or bad?

gittyup

Diamond Member
Nov 7, 2000
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This is a local story for me. In the hot spot Ybor City, they have had surveillance camers installed for quite sometime now. The new twist is that the cameras are now being used to capture a persons face and then try to match it to images found in the police dbase of wanted felons, known sexual predators, mising children, etc. Thoughts?

<edit> BTW, I think it's a good idea. :D </edit>


Florida City Stirs Controversy with Crowd Watching

TAMPA, Fla. (Reuters) - The city of Tampa, criticized by civil libertarians for its scanning of fans at this year's Super Bowl, has again stirred controversy by launching a police surveillance system using street cameras and computer software to look for wanted criminals.

The face recognition technology was put into action by Tampa police last Friday, linking software to 36 video cameras that were already in use in the city's bustling entertainment district of Ybor City to watch for people who might be on a police database.

The &quot;smart&quot; cameras swiftly aroused attention for what critics see as an invasion of privacy, or the arrival of &quot;Big Brother&quot; to watch over people enjoying a night out on the town: in this case a district that can attract as many as 150,000 people on busy weekend evenings.

But Tampa Police Detective Bill Todd, in charge of putting the system in place, said on Tuesday it was no more invasive, but more efficient, than having an officer standing on a street corner and watching out for possible wanted criminals passing by.

&quot;If the system doesn't find a match, it discards the image,&quot; Todd told Reuters, stressing that unlike the surveillance systems found in places like convenience stores, the system makes no record of images unless it matches a person the police might want to approach.

The software, linked to street cameras that have been in place in Ybor City since 1997, scans a person's face and breaks it down to compare it with images held in a police database of wanted felons, known sexual predators and runaway children, Todd said.

If it finds a match, the system alerts officers monitoring the camera, who in turn can message an officer on the street for a possible approach. Todd said that if there were no match, the images were discarded in less than a minute.

Tampa police installed the system, initially for a year's contract, after using a similar technology to scan images of thousands of fans as they went through turnstiles into Raymond James Stadium to watch the National Football League's biggest annual event, the Super Bowl, in January.

The system was attacked at the time by the American Civil Liberties Union, which is again worried about the use of the technology by the city of about 300,000 people.

&quot;We're very concerned that this system is in violation of the Fourth Amendment ... the right of the public to be free of unreasonable search and seizure,&quot; said Jack Walters of the ACLU's Tampa chapter.

&quot;If you ask most people if they would want a police officer to ask for their ID when they were doing nothing wrong, they would say no. This system checks your identity without your permission,&quot; he said.

&quot;The history of criminal law in the United States is that people can be pursued by the police only if there is reasonable suspicion ... historically we have not scanned the general public looking for criminals in the crowd,&quot; Walters said.

He added that far from being like a police officer on a street corner, the system would be more analogous to 100 officers carrying hundreds of mugshots each.

Todd, responding to suggestions of invasiveness, said the city had been very open in launching the system, and added that signs alerting citizens to street cameras had been updated to note the new &quot;smart&quot; cameras.


'BIG BROTHER TRACKING OUR EVERY MOVE?'

The system being used by Tampa police is made by New Jersey company Visionics Corp., a leading maker of identification technologies.

The Law Enforcement Alliance of America, a Washington D.C.-based group, called on Tuesday for the immediate withdrawal of the computer-enhanced cameras from Tampa streets.

U.S. House of Representatives Majority Leader Dick Armey added his criticism. &quot;This is a full-scale surveillance system,&quot; the Texas Republican said in a statement on Monday. &quot;Do we really want a society where one cannot walk down the street without Big Brother tracking our every move?&quot;

But the Tampa Tribune said fears of privacy invasion could be misplaced, given people are &quot;on camera&quot; anyway in many places, such as tollbooths, automatic teller machines and convenience stores.

&quot;It is all done for the purpose of crime prevention, crime solving and law enforcement -- not to create a Stalinist police state,&quot; the newspaper said in an editorial on Tuesday.

 

Czar

Lifer
Oct 9, 1999
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In some places I think its good, like here in Reykjavik we have cameras down town, where people gather on weekends to drink and whatnot. If someone assaults someone or something alike it will be on tape.

In big public gathering places I think its good to have &quot;big brother&quot; watching, everywhere else NO.
 

d0ofy

Golden Member
Oct 11, 1999
1,404
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I'll give up some of my privacy to catch convicts. As long as I have a clean record, I have nothing to worry about.
 

myputer

Golden Member
Feb 14, 2001
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I think it's a good idea, and I have no problems with it. As far as I am concerned you can not complain about privacy in a public place.
 

tweakmm

Lifer
May 28, 2001
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I think in the technology's current state, it is not a bad idea. But just think of the potential abuses. First it was the super bowl, now it is around downtown, Soon it might be everywhere, tracking everyones every move, sure this sounds paranoid, and might not happen, but we need to think of the potential for this stuff. Just because you have a clean record, do you still want people knowing where you are?
 

pulse8

Lifer
May 3, 2000
20,860
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I have no problems with it as long as the cameras are on in public places. I don't think you have as much privacy if you're in a public place, but I don't have anything to hide, so it's fine with me.
 

Tauren

Diamond Member
Jan 30, 2001
3,880
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I don't se it as an invasion of privacy, I mean hell, you're in PUBLIC, but it is scary.
 

BruinGuy

Senior member
Apr 20, 2001
432
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It definately has the potential for abuse, but I think it is a good idea in its present state.
 

isildur

Golden Member
Jan 3, 2001
1,509
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I agree that this _could_ be abused, but come on people, the way it is used right now is really no different than sitting a cop with a great memory there on the sidewalk.

- The camera doesn't &quot;track where everyone is and what everyone does,&quot; in fact, it _can't_
= the camera must have a database of high quality mug shots to work from
= the only people in the database are criminals with outstanding warrents
= if you aren't in the database, it has no way of determining who you are and does not record your face - it ignores you

so, the only people this system would even have the capacity to recognize would be those with warrents for them.

If it could recognize every Tom, Dick and Harry and recorded their movements, then it would be time to move to Canada...

:D

(Hey, I love milk in a bag!)
 

blueghost75

Golden Member
Dec 12, 2000
1,086
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its a BAD idea. some people just do not like being watched, even if they have nothing to hide.
 

MazrimTaim

Member
Jun 11, 2001
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I agree the potential for abuse is tremendous. I won't even go into all the possibilities but suffice to say, this is the beginning of what could be a very pervasive invasion of privacy issue.

And the argument that you don't have anything to hide is really simplistic. If that is the case, why not allow random searches everywhere? You have nothing to hide, so if you are shopping the mall, driving to the grocery store, whatever, the police should be allowed to ask for ID and check out your car, purse whatever. Afterall, you have nothing to hide and they will eventually catch some wrongdoers.

This is not what this country was founded upon and the ACLU is right on this issue. The goal of Tampa (I live in St. Petersburg right across the bay) may not be to create a Stalinist state but this is the beginning. And to say that we are on camera all the time so why is this any different? That is because when you go shopping or enter a buisness they are not recording your image and searching for &quot;possible&quot; warrants etc. I can't wait until someone comes up as a match, is arrested, and then sues the hind ends off the city and everyone else when it is discovered they &quot;matched&quot; the wrong person.

Society really raised a ruckus over criminal profiling (which quickly became racial profiling)and perhaps rightfully so. It shocks me that these same people don't see that this is exactly the same kind of issue.
 

BlackWob

Senior member
Jun 1, 2001
290
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To prevent big brother from watching me, I cover my entire body in aluminum foil and sit inside my closet all day. That way the satellites that the UFO's lended the government can't spy on me!
 

Elledan

Banned
Jul 24, 2000
8,880
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<< And the argument that you don't have anything to hide is really simplistic. If that is the case, why not allow random searches everywhere? You have nothing to hide, so if you are shopping the mall, driving to the grocery store, whatever, the police should be allowed to ask for ID and check out your car, purse whatever. Afterall, you have nothing to hide and they will eventually catch some wrongdoers. >>

Searches take some of your time, is done by a police officers who, unlikely the computersystem, are a real invasion of your privacy. Images which do not contain the face of a criminal are discarded, so no one can track your movements using this system as long as your face is not in the system's database.

Of course, there's always the question: do you trust your Government? ;)
 

Doboji

Diamond Member
May 18, 2001
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I think it's fine so long as they only use it to investigate reported crimes... and so long as they only scan for activities related to the reported crime. I don't want them scanning the videos on weekends looking to catch people having harmless illegal fun...

-Max

Really cool film short about big brother:)
 

Tripleshot

Elite Member
Jan 29, 2000
7,218
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If you don't do anything the cops are interested in,you have nothing to worry about.











But I still apposethe camaras. I am a privacy advocate. :)
 

ATLien247

Diamond Member
Feb 1, 2000
4,597
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I don't agree that this practice violates the 4th Amendment. Unreasonable search and seizure, I believe, applies only to personal property, not your face.

On the other hand, like others have said, you have to trust these agencies to not abuse this tool. That's the part that's a little hard to swallow...
 

Cerebus451

Golden Member
Nov 30, 2000
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I don't think this falls under the realm of invasion of privacy because you are in public. If you think you have a right to privacy in the middle of a public square, then you have to sit down with a dictionary and figure out what privacy means.

Even if they do use it to start tracking the movement of every Tom, Dick, and Harry out there, they still are not invading your privacy so long as they are still only monitoring what happens in public places.

This is also not as bad as what the Fredericksburg, VA police have going. There is a street corner in town where most of the drug dealing goes on, so they placed a surveillance camera, and they actually broadcast the signal on a local cable channel. If you were bored you could flip to channel 20 and see who was out buying drugs at the time. I don't know if the system is still operational, but again, if you think it violates your right to privacy, you are out on a public street corner buying drugs and deserve to get caught. Anything that helps the cops dole out a little justice is fine by me. I'm not doing anything illegal so I don't care if there are cameras watching me.
 

tweakmm

Lifer
May 28, 2001
18,436
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Again, I dont want to seem like a paranoid freak or anything, I'm just trying to a give a differnt perspective.
For everyone that said that they have nothing to hide, would you like people reading your e-mail, how about people opening your mail? How about people going through your stuff at your house or apartment when you're not there? Yes I do beleive that this is a bit different (Public vs. Private property) but if you have nothing to hide then what would be the big deal?
 

yellowperil

Diamond Member
Jan 17, 2000
4,598
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I don't mind the cameras in stores where you know the place is under surveillance (like at Walmart or Target where you see the monitor as you come in). But some of this sneaky stuff like putting cameras in strategic places out of view, or using heat sensors to 'look through' walls, worries me. I think in all public places, people should be told there are cameras around.
 

crystal

Platinum Member
Nov 5, 1999
2,424
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I think it is a bad idea. Camera is fine if being used for passive recording, i.e., collect &amp; store information for a finite amount of time then destory if not needed. If a crime occur, the authority could used it to catch the crimial.
The way it proposed to be used is active watching. The potential for abuse is just too great. Who watches the watchers. And do you really believe it being use for that purpose and that purpose only?