Squisher
Lifer
- Aug 17, 2000
- 21,204
- 66
- 91
Of the 240,000 employees of the big 3 there are 3,500 in the job bank right now.
But, it looks like you're getting your wish.
GM versus Toyota labor costs
GM spends at least $2400 more in labor versus Toyota because of the UAW.
$1420 more in health care.
$650 more for work rules, line relief and holiday pay
$350 more for paying UAW members for not working when plants are shut.
GM sold 4.5 million vehicles in the U.S. in 2005
$2400 x 4.5 million = $10.8 BILLION in extra costs for GM in "one" year.
Kind of ridiculous when all 3 automakers combined are asking for "only" 25 billion total for the bailout.
I'm sure the math is not exact when you consider imported vehicles and some other factors but it's pretty obvious where the cost disadvantage is coming
from(UAW). I'm sure the domestic automakers have to "skimp" on materials and quality to try to make up for this causing further problems with vehicle quality.
The new UAW contract takes affect in 2010 which sould eliminate the health care cost gap but does not take into conderation the billions of dollars the automakers have to fund VEBA with.
What a mess.
GM spends at least $2400 more in labor versus Toyota because of the UAW.
$1420 more in health care.
$650 more for work rules, line relief and holiday pay
$350 more for paying UAW members for not working when plants are shut.
GM sold 4.5 million vehicles in the U.S. in 2005
$2400 x 4.5 million = $10.8 BILLION in extra costs for GM in "one" year.
Kind of ridiculous when all 3 automakers combined are asking for "only" 25 billion total for the bailout.
I'm sure the math is not exact when you consider imported vehicles and some other factors but it's pretty obvious where the cost disadvantage is coming
from(UAW). I'm sure the domestic automakers have to "skimp" on materials and quality to try to make up for this causing further problems with vehicle quality.
The new UAW contract takes affect in 2010 which sould eliminate the health care cost gap but does not take into conderation the billions of dollars the automakers have to fund VEBA with.
What a mess.
Yeah, because when you actually look at Toyota, they decided to expand rapidly during the 90s. Their vehicles are not as good as they used to be. The materials are of a lower quality and the reliability has gone down. Toyota is number one for recalls. It reminds me of an old article about Daimler (Merc, specifically). They still make plenty of cash, but their bottom line has gotten hit hard because they're constantly having to repair their cars. I can see Toyota doing much of the same. Their reputation will carry them, but if they aren't careful, they'll ultimately continue to kick themselves in their own ass.
I agree. Toyota is riding on its reputation right now. Quality between the Japanese, Germans, and Americans are more or less on par. But reputation goes a long way for what may be somebody's most important purchase in their lifetime.
I guess you left out that small part that your numbers are not LABOR cost but employee cost, including current and retired. Labor cost for a new employee at GM cost about the same as a new employee at toyota, nissan, etc... plant in the US.
It is still $10.8 billion of extra costs a year associated with labor(UAW).
Even throwing out base wage disparities and retirees there is a huge problem.
$650 more for work rules, line relief and holiday pay
$350 more for paying UAW members for not working when plants are shut.
4.5 billion of lost revenue at a selling rate of 4.5 million vehicles.
I guess my point is while executive pay is a problem and I don't agree with the compensation it is clear labor cost(UAW) are a bigger issue.
Toyota and the other transpants already pay above the U.S. average manufacturing labor rate to keep unions out.
you know, you would think that someone, somewhere along the line wayyy back when would have stood up and said "wait a minute....is this REALLY a good idea?"...but they did not, and why didn't they?
Because they assumed that they would always have a strong customer base, a loyal following and that they would never, ever be where they are today.
Guess what boys...reality is a real bitch and now you are paying the piper.....with our money of course.
They ran the fucking company into the ground....let them figure a way out......that is what competition and re-invention is all about.
Federal income taxes paid 2007
GM $37.16 billion
Ford -$1.29 billion (write downs)
Toyota $7.61 billion
Honda $2.41 billion
GM $37.16 billion
Ford -$1.29 billion (write downs)
Toyota $7.61 billion
Honda $2.41 billion
I guess you can put the same logic with the Big 3 in the sense they will still be running themselves into the ground whether it's a PhD or a monkey on the helm. It's the methodology of the company that forms its backbone and eventually it's standards.
GroundedSailor
Platinum Member
- Feb 18, 2001
- 2,502
- 0
- 76
So tell us what happens when the unions no longer exist to give the non union employers a benchmark?
Will auto workers (anywhere in the us) fall to the walmart effect?
I think it is worth noting that the ford ceo only makes 2M a year. He did get a 20M bonus for taking the job, but this was just to pay out the beneifts he had was giving up by leaving boeing.
So far. It looks like this is decent inventment as he has donegood things for ford already.
So far. It looks like this is decent inventment as he has donegood things for ford already.
GroundedSailor
Platinum Member
- Feb 18, 2001
- 2,502
- 0
- 76
Thanks for that info.
But I think the big three have the bulk of their operations in Michigan / Ohio and other places where they have been established for a long time. They are not getting any tax breaks there so the average 'per car' subsidy is quite low even if you take places like TN into account.
On the other hand the newcomers to car manufacturing in the US, i.e., Japanese & Europeans, have been playing off the states against each other in order to maximize the incentives given to them. So the bulk of their operations are in locations subsidized by state taxpayers.
Which is why I wrote it would be interesting to see a comparison of 'per car' subsidies received.
Squisher
Lifer
- Aug 17, 2000
- 21,204
- 66
- 91
That article is dated Jan. 2007, we are two years and one concessionary labor agreement removed from those numbers.
Work rules have been streamlined. I worked at a supplier that pretty much mimicked the agreements at the big 3. My plant went from dozens of classifications down to half a dozen.
Right now there are 3500 employees in the jobs bank and the UAW said yesterday they were going to suspend payments to even those.
People don't realize that most of our salaries are tied into the union wages and thats why we get the amount we do. White collar workers will be getting $10 hour when you kill the unions. We've reached a point where you will not be able to choose where you want to work, its either take $10 hour or stay home and starve.
Fingolfin269
Lifer
- Feb 28, 2003
- 17,948
- 34
- 91
If we get to the point where everyone is making $10/hr you better believe I'm leaving my white collar auto industry job and going to work as a bartender or something.
There are all sorts of things wrong with this chart
1) Does the "average hourly wage + benefits" include public healthcare benefits that the Japanese receive? One could argue that we either need to remove healthcare from the figure of American average wage, or include it for the Japanese in order to have a better estimate
2) In fact, there appears to be no source provided for any of the average hourly wages and benefits. There are sources for number of employees and revenue per employee, but not hourly wage + benefits
3) What about relative buying power? Simply converting yen to USD is meaningless, unless those Japanese workers and factories are actually in Michigan. There are no details regarding this.
4) Wasn't there a report on P&N just a few months ago by some economists detailing how the Japanese autoworkers actually receive just as much compensation as our unionized workers? I don't think that the report said anything comparing the CEOs
1) Does the "average hourly wage + benefits" include public healthcare benefits that the Japanese receive? One could argue that we either need to remove healthcare from the figure of American average wage, or include it for the Japanese in order to have a better estimate
2) In fact, there appears to be no source provided for any of the average hourly wages and benefits. There are sources for number of employees and revenue per employee, but not hourly wage + benefits
3) What about relative buying power? Simply converting yen to USD is meaningless, unless those Japanese workers and factories are actually in Michigan. There are no details regarding this.
4) Wasn't there a report on P&N just a few months ago by some economists detailing how the Japanese autoworkers actually receive just as much compensation as our unionized workers? I don't think that the report said anything comparing the CEOs
Hey, when company A is getting itself favorable tax deals in Georgia and company B is caving into absurd union demands, guess who wins?
Fingolfin269
Lifer
- Feb 28, 2003
- 17,948
- 34
- 91
I think they actually spread COST (wages, health care, pension, car allowances, etc.) across all employees, resulting in the bloated figures. You have to keep in mind that there are probably more GM retired workers than there are active Honda/Toyota/Nissan workers in the US combined.
I pulled the # of employees thing from thin air but I'll bet it's not incorrect.
TRENDING THREADS
-
Discussion Zen 5 Speculation (EPYC Turin and Strix Point/Granite Ridge - Ryzen 9000)- Started by DisEnchantment
- Replies: 25K
-
Discussion Intel Meteor, Arrow, Lunar & Panther Lakes + WCL Discussion Threads
- Started by Tigerick
- Replies: 23K
-
Discussion Intel current and future Lakes & Rapids thread- Started by TheF34RChannel
- Replies: 23K
-
-
Facebook
Twitter