Better armor lacking for new troops in Iraq

Harvey

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Oct 9, 1999
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How nice. The Idiot In Chief wants so send 21,500 additional troops to Iraq, but he doesn't care enough to equip them for the mission he and very few others believes is even possible.
Better armor lacking for new troops in Iraq

By David Wood
Sun reporter


Originally published January 10, 2007

WASHINGTON // The thousands of troops that President Bush is expected to order to Iraq will join the fight largely without the protection of the latest armored vehicles that withstand bomb blasts far better than the Humvees in wide use, military officers said.

Vehicles such as the Cougar and the M1117 Armored Security Vehicle have proven ability to save lives, but production started late and relatively small numbers are in use in Iraq, mostly because of money shortages, industry officials said.

More than 1,000 American troops have been killed by roadside bombs since the war began in March 2003. At present there are fewer than 1,000 of the new armored trucks in Iraq. At $500,000 to $700,000 each, they cost more than twice as much as a standard Humvee, but already they are proving their worth.

"They are expensive, but they are going to save lives," said Gen. James T. Conway, commandant of the Marine Corps, during a recent trip to Iraq, where he reviewed the service's effort to get more of the vehicles.

Most American troops patrol in the 20,000 Humvees the Pentagon has sent to Iraq. Most of those vehicles have been layered with added armor plating as the Pentagon has struggled over the past three years to counter the increasingly powerful and sophisticated roadside bombs, or improvised explosive devices, planted by insurgents.

Two recent incidents illustrate the problem with the M1114 Humvee: The weight of added armor can make it unwieldy. And even with the extra armor, its flat bottom absorbs the full impact from bombs buried in the road, often buckling or breaking the chassis in half.

On Dec. 30, Army Sgt. John Michael Sullivan, 22, of Hixon, Tenn., was killed when his Humvee was struck by an IED in the Sadr City neighborhood of Baghdad. Four days earlier, Army Spc. Joseph A. Strong, 21, of Lebanon, Ind., and Spc. Douglas L. Tinsley, 21, of Chester, S.C., died when their Humvee rolled into a canal during a patrol in Baghdad.

"The problem with the M1114s is, they are overloaded and flat-bottomed," said Maj. Gen. Richard C. Zilmer, the senior Marine commander in Iraq.

Today, the Marines are moving quickly to buy and deploy combat vehicles with a key design improvement over the Humvee: They are built with a V-shaped hull that deflects a blast up and outward, leaving passengers shaken, but alive.

Under a $125 million contract, the Marines are buying 100 Cougar and 44 Buffalo armored trucks, known collectively as MRAP, for Mine Resistant Ambush Protected vehicles, made by Force Protection Inc., a small company in Ladson, S.C. The firm is producing 40 vehicles a month, said its vice president, Mike Aldrich, a retired Army officer educated at West Point.

Aldrich said the design grew out of a joint Army and Marine Corps request "designed to literally stop the bleeding from up-armored Humvees in some of the most dangerous areas in Iraq and Afghanistan."

The military services said last month that they need 4,060 of the MRAP vehicles, with 2,500 for the Army, 538 for the Navy and 1,022 for the Marines. The delivery schedule is uncertain. Meanwhile, a permanent replacement for the Humvee, incorporating the latest design and armor improvements, is years away, Pentagon officials said, and mired in technical and cost disputes.

Separately, the Army is buying the 15-ton M1117 armored vehicle for its military police. The V-hull vehicles were in production in the late 1990s but were canceled by the Army as unnecessary. In June 2004, the service decided that it needed them after all. The Army has said it needs 2,600.

Today, Textron Inc. is producing 48 per month at its New Orleans plant under a contract for 1,250 vehicles.

"That's all they had the money for," said Clay Moise, vice president for business development for Textron's Marine and Land division.

But a lack of money only partly explains why, four years into the war, there is a shortage of vehicles that can effectively survive an IED.

"The key reason it is taking so long is pretty simple: At each step along the way for the past four years, the key policymakers have assumed we were just months away from beginning to withdraw" from Iraq, said Loren B. Thompson, a national security analyst at the Lexington Institute, a nonpartisan think tank in Arlington, Va. "As a result, they never made long-term plans for occupying the country effectively."

Aldrich said the explanation is more complex.

"This is a radically different vehicle, and it took time, even under the pressure of war, for this country to tool up and meet the demand," he said. "Our contribution to the delay was not being able to press a button and instantly start producing 20 a week. And the warfighter had to adjust and realize this wasn't a temporary problem - that we are more likely to face this type of attack than any other for decades to come."

The Humvee, of course, has its admirers. In its newer versions, such as the M1114, added armor is matched with a more powerful, turbocharged diesel engine and other improvements.

"I love it. It's not at all hard to drive," said Army Spec. Jessica Dersch, 22, of Erie, Pa. "I've been through three explosions in 10 months," she said in a recent interview outside Camp Blue Diamond in Ramadi.

But the IED threat to Humvees is reflected in the Marines' hard-won experience in Anbar province.

"If you are hit by an IED, your chance of survival is four or five times greater in an MRAP than in a M1114," said a Marine commander, referring to the standard Humvee.

About half of the Marines' combat vehicles in Anbar are Humvees, and these are associated with 60 percent of the combat deaths and 65 percent of the wounded Marines, officers said. By comparison, attacks on V-hull armored vehicles have resulted in 2.1 percent of Marine combat deaths and 3.5 percent of the service's wounded.

A report released yesterday by the Government Accountability Office, the investigative arm of Congress, said the IED problem came about in large measure because there were not enough U.S. troops in Iraq after the 2003 invasion to secure Saddam Hussein's ammunition caches.

In the weeks after the invasion, vast amounts of anti-personnel and anti-tank mines, artillery shells and other explosives were stolen from unguarded Iraqi arsenals.

"IEDs made from looted explosives have caused about half of all U.S. combat fatalities and casualties in Iraq and have killed hundreds of Iraqis," the GAO said.
Thanks for NOTHING, Chief... literally! Better practice your funeral speech. :thumbsdown: :( :thumbsdown:
 

jrenz

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Jan 11, 2006
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What would be the response of congress if he asked for the money to provide all the latest equipment to everyone in Iraq? (Just asking)
 

Harvey

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Oct 9, 1999
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Originally posted by: jrenz
What would be the response of congress if he asked for the money to provide all the latest equipment to everyone in Iraq? (Just asking)
He might find that his happy camping trip and tax cuts for the rich have already squandered so much money that we couldn't afford to keep our guys alive. :(
 

nullzero

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Jan 15, 2005
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Anything that rolls on the ground wont be immuned to mines. The insurgents will just keep making more powerful and effective IEDs. We should pull our ground forces out and stop wasting the money for a pointless ground war. If we want to help the iraqis we should be doing spec ops with air strikes to destory the insurgents and terrorists. Lets see $700k-$1million dollar anti mine vehicle vs. a $1000 IED and the IED still destorys the vehicle beyond repair. This shows why we cant win the war in the long run if the insurgents are still going at it full force. In the end it comes down to a war of resources and money, both which the U.S. is at a big disadvantage. There are millions in Iraq willing to fight the U.S. , the insurgents are dispensable and fight to the death. All it takes is a $40 ak47 and a $500-$1000 bomb to create massive problems for the U.S. Compared with the U.S. and how much time and money involved training each solider and equipping. Not to mention our soliders are very precious and are not dispensable like the average joe iraqi insurgent.
 

K1052

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Aug 21, 2003
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It sounds like the existing production facilities are maxed out for the time being, regardless of funds being available for the entire number required.

It isn't like equipment issues like this haven't surfaced before in the Army's history. Just ask all the guys who ran around in M4 Shermans against German Panzer IIIs/IVs and Tigers.
 

Harvey

Administrator<br>Elite Member
Oct 9, 1999
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Originally posted by: conjur
But, hey! He's got a giant yellow ribbon on the tail of Air Force One!
That's not a ribbon. That's the sling his ass is in. :p
 

nullzero

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Jan 15, 2005
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Also like to add for every insurgent killed we more then likely create 2-3 new ones from the cause and effect. If the U.S. military kills the father of 3 boys ages 14-20 you just created 3 new insurgents and enemies of America.
 

SarcasticDwarf

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Jun 8, 2001
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Originally posted by: K1052
It sounds like the existing production facilities are maxed out for the time being, regardless of funds being available for the entire number required.

It isn't like equipment issues like this haven't surfaced before in the Army's history. Just ask all the guys who ran around in M4 Shermans against German Panzer IIIs/IVs and Tigers.

The problem seems to be that it is usually small companies producing critical components (another example would be body armor). Of course, heaven help us if we could work out a deal to actually mass produce the stuff in other facilities.
 

nullzero

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Jan 15, 2005
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Originally posted by: SarcasticDwarf
Originally posted by: K1052
It sounds like the existing production facilities are maxed out for the time being, regardless of funds being available for the entire number required.

It isn't like equipment issues like this haven't surfaced before in the Army's history. Just ask all the guys who ran around in M4 Shermans against German Panzer IIIs/IVs and Tigers.

The problem seems to be that it is usually small companies producing critical components (another example would be body armor). Of course, heaven help us if we could work out a deal to actually mass produce the stuff in other facilities.

Mass production... lol we can wish for that. The War Profiteers would never do that, it lowers their lucurative margins. The War Profiteers are keeping the supply for critical war materials artificially low so they can charge much higher amounts.
 

Termagant

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Mar 10, 2006
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Originally posted by: nullzero
Also like to add for every insurgent killed we more then likely create 2-3 new ones from the cause and effect. If the U.S. military kills the father of 3 boys ages 14-20 you just created 3 new insurgents and enemies of America.

I'm sure those boys will understand that they are fortunate enough to have Freedom and Democracy being brought to them and will actually grow up to thank America, and their father was probably an abusive wretch anyway.

Remember what President Bush said, Freedom and Liberty are privileges and not God-given rights as those Foolish Founding Fathers thought.
 

nullzero

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Jan 15, 2005
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Originally posted by: Termagant
Originally posted by: nullzero
Also like to add for every insurgent killed we more then likely create 2-3 new ones from the cause and effect. If the U.S. military kills the father of 3 boys ages 14-20 you just created 3 new insurgents and enemies of America.

I'm sure those boys will understand that they are fortunate enough to have Freedom and Democracy being brought to them and will actually grow up to thank America, and their father was probably an abusive wretch anyway.

Remember what President Bush said, Freedom and Liberty are privileges and not God-given rights as those Foolish Founding Fathers thought.

That will never happen, you got to put yourself in the shoes of the Iraqi.

Here is a hypothetical situation...

/////If we were going about are daily day living relatively in secure here in the United States. Then one day the Chinese say that we need to be liberated have an evil leader that is making nukes that will destory the world. So they take out our leader at first we are all happy because lets say the U.S. is in opposite roles as the occupied... Before liberation lets say the U.S. had limited freedom and big brother watching over us when we had our leader in place. But after the Chinese took over we are free to do what we want... but lets say we as a people are very religious and are using this freedom to pratice our strict religious views that were banned when our leader was there. We are also not very fond with the Chinese to start off with and want them out immediately. Time drags on and it increasingly seems that the Chinese are here to stay for the long haul prehaps for our natural resources they are intrested in. The government is fractured and everyone is going in seperate directions with what they think the government should be.

Soon a insurgency against the Chinese starts up because they raped several of our women and have killed the leaders in the religious funadmentalist movement. Now lets say you have a father that took good care of you and decided to join the insurgency because there was no other good work around. You stay at home as things get worse never knowning your fathers job was an insurgent. Then one day you find out your father was gunned down walking to the store by Chinese soliders (at least thats what you hear.)

I would take bets most sons would pick up arms and fight the Chinese to avenge their fathers death, the death of your father would change your live forever./////

This is why the insurgency will keep running strong. Even if the children know that their father was an insurgent they are brain washed from the time they are born to hate the U.S. and Jews. In the kids eyes their father died as a solider of god fighting the men that tried to control them.
 

wetech

Senior member
Jul 16, 2002
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Originally posted by: Harvey
How nice. The Idiot In Chief wants so send 21,500 additional troops to Iraq, but he doesn't care enough to equip them for the mission he and very few others believes is even possible

I love the reaction that people have to articles like this, which seem to pop up every couple of months. Before it was the uparmored HMMV's. Everyone screamed that Bush didn't care about the troops because he couldn't snap his fingers and instantly convert all existing vehicles.

Now that most have been upgraded, we have something new to complain about. Now Bush doesn't care because we don't have 10,000 of the new vehicles already deployed. The VP of the company who makes the damn things explained the problem pretty well. Production capacity is the major bottleneck for deployment now:

"This is a radically different vehicle, and it took time, even under the pressure of war, for this country to tool up and meet the demand," he said. "Our contribution to the delay was not being able to press a button and instantly start producing 20 a week. And the warfighter had to adjust and realize this wasn't a temporary problem - that we are more likely to face this type of attack than any other for decades to come."

The point is, there will always be newer and better technology developed. Our troops deserve and receive the best in the world, but unfortunately, production and deployment takes time. To say that Bush, et al don't care because they can't make the impossible happen is simply dishonest.
 

maluckey

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Jan 31, 2003
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There are mines and Booby Traps here that kill M1's. You are no safer in a tank than in a Kia Sephia. what's the point again to this whole thread?

I ride in the M1114 on patrols, and would just as happily patrol in a Dodge Neon. I saw a tank riped to pieces by a large AT mine. The new Cougar would be scrap metal after a blast like that.

It really doesn't matter to the terrorists how big the blast has to be or how many civilians are killed to get to the Coalition troops.
 

brandonbull

Diamond Member
May 3, 2005
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Originally posted by: maluckey
There are mines and Booby Traps here that kill M1's. You are no safer in a tank than in a Kia Sephia. what's the point again to this whole thread?

I ride in the M1114 on patrols, and would just as happily patrol in a Dodge Neon. I saw a tank riped to pieces by a large AT mine. The new Cougar would be scrap metal after a blast like that.

It really doesn't matter to the terrorists how big the blast has to be or how many civilians are killed to get to the Coalition troops.

That's what happens when you underestimate your enemy and think everything will be ok because you landed a jet on a carrier and hung a big sign up.

 

Lemon law

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Nov 6, 2005
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Its a brilliant strategy---Iraq has 25 million people---we have 300 million---we can just keep sending our sons and daughters over---sooner or later the Insurgents will run out of ammunition. Why waste material and good vehicles?---they are expensive to replace!

And better yet---if the experienced vet survives their tour of duty---you can send em back over again and again and again. And the more of our people that are killed, the more important it is to win. Springtime comes early in Iraq---beat the winter blahs---have fun and excitment.

So don't just sit there reading this, enlist immediately. GWB&co. needs you. Ask not what your country can do for you, ask what you can do for Haliburton.
 

MedicBob

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Nov 29, 2001
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I like how most of the posts have nothing to do with what the OP posted other then Iraq and GWB.

On topic, after 1 year in M1114s doing convoy escort and seeing everything from contractors pickup trucks to M1A1 MBT being destroyed nothing will protect you from everything, nothing. The Cougars and Buffalos are very good, but are used limitedly and not for everything, just like a tank isn't used for everything. They are purpose built vehicles and are not GP, general purpose use.