Best route for liquid cooling for dual GTX 690s?

[danjw]

I want to do a build with a SilverStone TJ11 case, Asus Z77 Motherboard, Intel Core i7-3770K and a dual GeForce GTX690 SLI. I haven't done liquid cooling before so I wasn't sure about the best setup for the graphics cards. I was planing on a loop for the CPU and either one each for the graphics or a loop for both. The case can take a quad 140 radiator and probably a dual 140 on the other side.

The TDP on each graphics card it 300W while the CPU is only 77W. Would it be better to just go air cooling for the CPU and use both radiators for the graphics cards? Thanks in advance for any advice!

 

[billyb0b]

You could do the CPU on a single 240 rad just fine, 360 obviously better.

Another loop cooling both gpu's with a 360.

 

[OVerLoRDI]

1 CPU and 4 GPUs?

That is quite a lot of heat. Can 6x140mm worth of radiator cool that?

What is this computer for? If for gaming, you can get by with that much rad. If these cards are for folding or some other applications that loads up GPUs 100% continually, you will want more.

 

[danjw]

1 CPU and 4 GPUs?

That is quite a lot of heat. Can 6x140mm worth of radiator cool that?

What is this computer for? If for gaming, you can get by with that much rad. If these cards are for folding or some other applications that loads up GPUs 100% continually, you will want more.

677W? Yes that is a bit of heat. But, the graphics cards usually only have in a two slot one fan configuration. So even 280x140 radiator would be a lot more then the stock cooling.

Mostly compiling programs and gaming, but, also transcoding video, maybe a little video editing. But for the transcoding, I would be using the CPU's Quicksync capability so the GPUs wouldn't be loaded for that.

With this case I could probably get a back panel radiator with some modding of the case. This case uses the 90degree rotated motherboard tray that SilverStone uses in some of their cases. So the backpanel of the motherboard is on the top. The radiators would share the lower chamber with a power supply. There are two 180mm fans right below the motherboard that have their one openings for intake. If you haven't seen the case here is the spec page: http://www.silverstonetek.com/product.php?pid=292&area=en.

Not really planning on folding on this one. I can task my HTPC for that when I don't have it doing anything else.

 

[Grooveriding]

I would do a single loop with two rads, a 360 and 240 or two 360 rads. That should easily cover CPU + GPUs and be a straight forward setup. If that case can accommodate two 360 rads easily I would do that, otherwise the 360 + 240 setup.

Actually if the case can easily take a 480, I would do a 480 rad and a 240 rad or 480 rad + 360 rad. TJ11 is a huge case and seems you are not budget concerned. I think the TJ11 can take a 480 rad in the bottom chamber, but not certain off hand.

 

[danjw]

I would do a single loop with two rads, a 360 and 240 or two 360 rads. That should easily cover CPU + GPUs and be a straight forward setup. If that case can accommodate two 360 rads easily I would do that, otherwise the 360 + 240 setup.

Actually if the case can easily take a 480, I would do a 480 rad and a 240 rad or 480 rad + 360 rad. TJ11 is a huge case and seems you are not budget concerned. I think the TJ11 can take a 480 rad in the bottom chamber, but not certain off hand.

480? It has space for 4x140 (560) radiator on one side and at least 2x140 (280) on the other maybe even a 3x140 or at least a 3x120. I am looking at a Corsair AX1200i power supply that should be available shortly, it is 200mm long. So, I do need to make sure I have space for that. No real concerned about cost, I figure this case will last me for years. So it is a long term investment. After all, go big, or go home.

Once I get the case I will need to measure and figure out what exactly I can fit on the side with the power supply.

 

[Grooveriding]

480? It has space for 4x140 (560) radiator on one side and at least 2x140 (280) on the other maybe even a 3x140 or at least a 3x120. I am looking at a Corsair AX1200i power supply that should be available shortly, it is 200mm long. So, I do need to make sure I have space for that. No real concerned about cost, I figure this case will last me for years. So it is a long term investment. After all, go big, or go home.

Once I get the case I will need to measure and figure out what exactly I can fit on the side with the power supply.

140mm sized rads are fine if you want to go that way. I don't know if that is necessary though, but if you want to for the heck of it, why not.

I think a 480 and 360 rad in the bottom would be ideal. It's great to have the radiators in the bottom of the case because bleeding the air out is made so much easier with the rest of the loop above the radiators.

I liked putting a radiator before my cpu and then another before my gpus, but from what the real experts say, in the end it is not a huge deal as the water temperature equalizes through the loop. I'm sure with some creative tube work you could run it that way anyways.

The PSU residing in the base of the case is a non-issue. You put the 480 on the side without the PSU and the 360 on the side with the PSU. TJ11 orients the motherboard with the IO panel at the top, so I would go with a bay reservoir at the uppermost of the case, just making sure it is above the level of your CPU block.

If it were me I would go with these

2x http://www.dazmode.com/store/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=99_101&products_id=2369

http://www.dazmode.com/store/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=102_199&products_id=2019

http://www.dazmode.com/store/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=157_71&products_id=1734

http://www.dazmode.com/store/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=154_69&products_id=1178

http://www.dazmode.com/store/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=154_69&products_id=1012

http://www.dazmode.com/store/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=122_123&products_id=1998

Then your hose, fans and decision on compression fittings or barbs etc. This is obviously what I personally would probably buy to do it, but everything could be replaced with another manufacturer's product for the same purpose.

 

[danjw]

140mm sized rads are fine if you want to go that way. I don't know if that is necessary though, but if you want to for the heck of it, why not.

I think a 480 and 360 rad in the bottom would be ideal. It's great to have the radiators in the bottom of the case because bleeding the air out is made so much easier with the rest of the loop above the radiators.

I liked putting a radiator before my cpu and then another before my gpus, but from what the real experts say, in the end it is not a huge deal as the water temperature equalizes through the loop. I'm sure with some creative tube work you could run it that way anyways.

The PSU residing in the base of the case is a non-issue. You put the 480 on the side without the PSU and the 360 on the side with the PSU. TJ11 orients the motherboard with the IO panel at the top, so I would go with a bay reservoir at the uppermost of the case, just making sure it is above the level of your CPU block.

If it were me I would go with these

2x http://www.dazmode.com/store/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=99_101&products_id=2369

http://www.dazmode.com/store/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=102_199&products_id=2019

http://www.dazmode.com/store/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=157_71&products_id=1734

http://www.dazmode.com/store/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=154_69&products_id=1178

http://www.dazmode.com/store/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=154_69&products_id=1012

http://www.dazmode.com/store/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=122_123&products_id=1998

Then your hose, fans and decision on compression fittings or barbs etc. This is obviously what I personally would probably buy to do it, but everything could be replaced with another manufacturer's product for the same purpose.

Bigger fans mean lower RPMs which means quieter. I know they add up, but still every little bit helps. I am leaning toward XSPC for the radiators. I was think their EX560 and EX360 or EX420 depending on which will work. Also the CPU water block. Not sure which way I will go on GPU water blocks. I need to do more research on the later. I read good things about the D5 pump, not sure about that the reservoir really matter as to brand. I plan on reusing the most of the liquid cooling gear as I upgrade the computers hardware. So I figure it is worth going for the best. Obviously water blocks will have to change with new hardware, but the rest of the rig I figure can be reused.

 

[macforth]

Felt a bit like deja vu when I read this thread.
I am also about 80% into building a similar setup in a TJ11. I chose the RX480 instead of 140 mm.....mainly because I am trying to build the complete cooling system controlled by the PMW output of the Asus Maximus Extreme's 8 fan outlets and Asus' Fan Expert II, and choices of good 140mm PWM fans are bad.
To that end, I have 9 NF-F12 PWM fans for the 480 and top, and 2 Phobya G-Silent 18 PWM to replace the two big bottom fans.
I have a Swiftech Apogee Drive II pump and CPU block.......plus a MCP35X2 , both of which are PWM controlled. I'll worry about further fans for the second rad when thats purchased. And just for interest, I managed to get the Noctuas for just under $20 each.

http://www.amazon.com/Noctua-NF-P12-...rds=nf-f12+pwm

I do have a question as a result of seeing some parts while doing days and days of research. You can buy a plug...I guess connected via a T somewhere....which is a pressure valve. I last watercooled about two builds ago. It was an Intel 3.2 478pin MB, and I never had any pressure worries. But pumps and systems have advanced hugely since then...so my question is: has anyone experienced any pressure buildups in any WC projects?

I have managed to get a lot of other parts as well...such as 16gig twin Corsair Platinum pair, and an Intel 520 480 gig SSD. I was also impressed with that Corsair proposed 1200i. A very interesting power supply....and I have worked out that one would need about 1100 to be on the safe side with two watercooled 590's.

And thats where I have hit a brick wall. I have tried for 2 1/2 months now to buy 2 EVGA GTX 690 Hydro Coppers...unsuccessfully. I realise that one can buy two aircooled ones and put water blocks on them, but it peeves me for three reasons.

Firstly the HC's are clocked slightly higher than all other 690's. Secondly, the fitting and decision as to what waterblocks rears it's head..and the forums have mentioned difficulties some people have met going down that road. Lastly, there is a question of warranty....and an answer from EVGA to a question in that area tells me that any card that played up would have to returned as bought before any RMA.

I wish you luck in your endeavours....especially in your choice of GPU's.

 

[danjw]

Felt a bit like deja vu when I read this thread.
I am also about 80% into building a similar setup in a TJ11. I chose the RX480 instead of 140 mm.....mainly because I am trying to build the complete cooling system controlled by the PMW output of the Asus Maximus Extreme's 8 fan outlets and Asus' Fan Expert II, and choices of good 140mm PWM fans are bad.
To that end, I have 9 NF-F12 PWM fans for the 480 and top, and 2 Phobya G-Silent 18 PWM to replace the two big bottom fans.
I have a Swiftech Apogee Drive II pump and CPU block.......plus a MCP35X2 , both of which are PWM controlled. I'll worry about further fans for the second rad when thats purchased. And just for interest, I managed to get the Noctuas for just under $20 each.

http://www.amazon.com/Noctua-NF-P12-...rds=nf-f12+pwm

I do have a question as a result of seeing some parts while doing days and days of research. You can buy a plug...I guess connected via a T somewhere....which is a pressure valve. I last watercooled about two builds ago. It was an Intel 3.2 478pin MB, and I never had any pressure worries. But pumps and systems have advanced hugely since then...so my question is: has anyone experienced any pressure buildups in any WC projects?

I have managed to get a lot of other parts as well...such as 16gig twin Corsair Platinum pair, and an Intel 520 480 gig SSD. I was also impressed with that Corsair proposed 1200i. A very interesting power supply....and I have worked out that one would need about 1100 to be on the safe side with two watercooled 590's.

And thats where I have hit a brick wall. I have tried for 2 1/2 months now to buy 2 EVGA GTX 590 Hydro Coppers...unsuccessfully. I realise that one can buy two aircooled ones and put water blocks on them, but it peeves me for three reasons.

Firstly the HC's are clocked slightly higher than all other 590's. Secondly, the fitting and decision as to what waterblocks rears it's head..and the forums have mentioned difficulties some people have met going down that road. Lastly, there is a question of warranty....and an answer from EVGA to a question in that area tells me that any card that played up would have to returned as bought before any RMA.

I wish you luck in your endeavours....especially in your choice of GPU's.

As far as 140 to 120 PWM fans I just did a quick look and found this: http://www.frozencpu.com/products/16677/fan-1036/Lepa_140mm_x_25mm_PWM_Fan_w_Vortex_Frame_LPVX14P.html?tl=g36c365s1507. While it claims ~20db which is a little louder then the Nactua, you mention, it also moves more air. Also, I believe the 590s have an even higher TDP then the 690s, just thought I should mention that.

I am looking at the same motherboard you are though I planed to control the 2 180mm fans with a Corsair Link fan controller. So with 7 on radiators and 1 exhaust fan, that is my 8 motherboard headers. With the CPU and GPU having waterblocks, I don't really see heat in the motherboard area really being that big of a problem. So they should be able to stay on low most of the time. I don't intend to have any hard or optical drives installed, which will limit another source of heat and just going with an SSD. I have a NAS for storage, so it isn't a big deal to me.

I am not sure if you are aware, but one of the hard drive bays can be put into the stack of 5.25 bays. There are three that aren't accessible from the outside so you can move one in there to free up space in the bottom. Though they probably wouldn't be cooled very well.

Thanks again to everyone who has given me advice and suggested reading material. I think I am going to have lots of fun building this machine!

 

[macforth]

Let me edit that last post...seems I got my 590's and 690's mixed up.


Ahh thats better. One thing I have learnt re the fan outlets on the motherboard. Although there are eight (8) the two CPU one's are tied in physically, such that only seven show up when using Asus Fan Expert II. In other words, if one were to use the PWM signal from either of the CPU fan outlets....it would only allow the control one fan (or set of fans), or water pump etc.
It really was designed for such thinks as the large push pull air coolers which use two fans, basically saving the use of a "Y" connector.

The other thing that I noticed tonight, ......when using two cards in SLI.....the second card does not go into the second red slot, as I first had assumed, but rather into the black slot situated between the 2nd and 3rd red slots..........and referred to in the manual as slot 2B. The distance, therefore, between two cards in SLI on this board seems to be 1.5 times normal. Tough if you are planning to use some of the fixed distance connectors around.

As to the general cooling around the motherboard , given the CPU and the GPU's are watercooled.....I am giving some though to using some temperature sensors around the power coolers.
Where the formular has the option of adding water cooling to compliment, this board lacks that. It maybe that there is a sufficient draught passing over the board created by the two 180mm fans, but it is certainly an area that needs to be checked once everything is set up. There are three cable temperature sensor imputs on this board

 

[OVerLoRDI]

Sounds like you are getting things sorted out. My only advice would be to go with 120mm radiators instead of 140. Yes 140 is bigger, but the fan options are significantly worse. Some of the testing I have seen at martinsliquidlab shows that GT AP-15s are better than all the 140mm fans he tested from a airflow/noise ratio. Just something to consider.

You could do a separate loop for GPUs and CPUs, however the max operating temp of all your hardware is about the same, meaning that it isn't too big of a deal for them to "warm" each other. It can be an issue with Phenom II type CPUs that had a max operating temp of like 62C, but Ivy and Sandy have higher max temps, so there is plenty of wiggle room there. I would only separate them if it made sense from a plumbing perspective.

With that setup, I'd fit as many radiators as I possibly could in the case though. If you ever run into a game/application that loads up your entire system, you could really start pushing your loops.

I'll have to look up the TJ11 again, but I know it has that massive bottom compartment where people fit the big quad radiators, but where would the 240/360 radiator be going? If it is also going in that compartment you are essentially stacking radiators and that has been shown to not be very effective.

 

[macforth]

Anyone know the answer to this question?

"I do have a question as a result of seeing some parts while doing days and days of research. You can buy a plug...I guess connected via a T somewhere....which is a pressure valve. I last watercooled about two builds ago. It was an Intel 3.2 478pin MB, and I never had any pressure worries. But pumps and systems have advanced hugely since then...so my question is: has anyone experienced any pressure buildups in any WC projects?"

 

[danjw]

I'll have to look up the TJ11 again, but I know it has that massive bottom compartment where people fit the big quad radiators, but where would the 240/360 radiator be going? If it is also going in that compartment you are essentially stacking radiators and that has been shown to not be very effective.

The bottom compartment has two spots for a power supply. So you would mount the longer radiator on the side that doesn't have a power supply and the shorter on the side that does. The power supply is mounted 90 degrees off from most cases. So, what would normally be the sides of a power supply are parallel with the bottom of the case. Both sides of the lower chamber have a mesh on the side panel. I linked above to the product page from SilverStone's website in the 4th message in this thread if you would like to look. Oh, and both the hard drive bays in the bottom are removable and you can fit on into the 3 5.25" drive bays that aren't accessible from the outside.

As far as additional questions, is there any particular coolant that anyone would suggest?

 

[danjw]

Opps, didn't really answer the question.

 

[danjw]

I found some youtube videos for a review and water cooling build build of/with the TJ11 from an Australian, Singularity Computers. I thought I thought I would share them here, I found them very interesting. They are pretty long with the review taking just under 45 minutes. The others are between ~20-~30 minutes each.

Silverstone Temjin TJ11 Review
Singularity Computers Client Build 4 - Water-cooled Gaming System: Part 1
Singularity Computers Client Build 4 - Water-cooled Gaming System: Part 2
Singularity Computers Client Build 4 - Water-cooled Gaming System: Part 3
Singularity Computers Client Build 4 - Water-cooled Gaming System: Part 4
Singularity Computers Client Build 4 - Water-cooled Gaming System: Part 5

I thought this information might be interesting to others considering doing a build in this system.

One thing I noticed was his system, between graphics cards and 550W which is only 127W less then what I am talking about building. And his environment that he is building for is much warmer then mine. Also, with cables, tubes and connectors, the bottom gets pretty busy. I liked that he used sealant, filters and fan grills on the radiator to protect it.

So, I am thinking maybe I should just go with a single radiator. I did think it was a really good idea to include the fan guards on the interior side of the radiators to protect them. I also found a review of a XSPC EX radiator that showed it not performing as well as others, so I think I will be looking for a different radiator, maybe the Hardware Labs one he used. I am leaning this way since I know that will work with the mounts he uses, without any modding of the case.

One thing he says, is that he bought a hard drive cage to convert the 5.25" bays to 3.5". I know I read a review that states you can use the lower drive bays for this as well. So, I expect if you want to do that you shouldn't have to spend the money on a new cage.

Anyway, these seemed like a great resource for anyone who wants to do a build in this case, so I thought I would share them.

 

[danjw]

Anyone know the answer to this question?

"I do have a question as a result of seeing some parts while doing days and days of research. You can buy a plug...I guess connected via a T somewhere....which is a pressure valve. I last watercooled about two builds ago. It was an Intel 3.2 478pin MB, and I never had any pressure worries. But pumps and systems have advanced hugely since then...so my question is: has anyone experienced any pressure buildups in any WC projects?"

If you are going to add an pressure valve I wouldn't just leave it on a un-terminated tube. It seems to me you don't want coolant going onto your other components, so I would want it to overflow into an empty reservoir.

 

[BrightCandle]

I have seen people setup loops with all sorts cooling setups, its amazing how little you can get away with and "it works". But to actually get the benefits of watercooling (lower temperatures, higher overclocks and quieter volume) you need to specify on the basis of a maximum water delta of 10C. 15-20C will produce similar temperatures on the CPU as high end air.

Not having used 140mm rads I really can't comment on those but typically on 120mm rads you are looking at about 130W @ 10C delta with 800-1000rpm per 120mm radiator slot. If you don't intend to overclock at all then you need to cool 677 ie you need 6 slots.

If you start to overclock then you need to account for the additional heat, which on the CPU side is possibly as high as 180W and on the GPU side could be another 60W per card.

Since 3x140mm radiators are basically the same area as 4x120mm fans I think its fair to say they will likely perform very similarly, meaning you need 4x140mm slots in all for stock. Anything less than that and you either have to compromise on noise or performance.

 

[danjw]

I have seen people setup loops with all sorts cooling setups, its amazing how little you can get away with and "it works". But to actually get the benefits of watercooling (lower temperatures, higher overclocks and quieter volume) you need to specify on the basis of a maximum water delta of 10C. 15-20C will produce similar temperatures on the CPU as high end air.

Not having used 140mm rads I really can't comment on those but typically on 120mm rads you are looking at about 130W @ 10C delta with 800-1000rpm per 120mm radiator slot. If you don't intend to overclock at all then you need to cool 677 ie you need 6 slots.

If you start to overclock then you need to account for the additional heat, which on the CPU side is possibly as high as 180W and on the GPU side could be another 60W per card.

Since 3x140mm radiators are basically the same area as 4x120mm fans I think its fair to say they will likely perform very similarly, meaning you need 4x140mm slots in all for stock. Anything less than that and you either have to compromise on noise or performance.

A 140mm radiator width, given everything else is equal, would be ~36% more effective (140^2/120^2 = 1.3611111...). So, for each 140mm of radiator you should be able to dissipate ~176.8W. With a 560 Radiator would dissipate ~707W. If I went to dual radiators with a total of 6 140mm radiator slots it would get me to ~1061W. So I guess I need to think about a second radiator. ;-) Thank you very much for the input.

 

[macforth]

One option to place two rads in the lower section.....one longer and one shorter.....this rad article may prove to be helpful.
http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/showthread.php?220874-More-Radiator-Sandwich-testing
Another option is to place, say, a RX 480 in the bottom, with both a push pull set of 8 fans, and employ the top fan to push some air through a single 120. I don't know what the internal tempature would be as it enters that rad in that position....given that it has to be pulling air from inside to out. I have seen that employed in one build...but no comment as to what assistance the extra single 120 did.
Given the (I found) very surprising result s that Hesmelugh got, I may have to play round a bit.
I finally bought two aircooled EVGA 690's, and two EVGA waterblocks....have the back plates as well. Pretty well got everything together now...but I don't start travelling towards the home front till 19th...and it takes 2 days. Then a few days to get over it all...so I guess, I won't get this build done till the end of the month at the earliest.
When I get started, I'll put a full list up as to the total build.....never put photos on a forum yet...but I guess I could force myself through that learning curve.

 

[danjw]

After doing more research I am planing on the Alphacool NexXxoS UT60 560mm and 280mm radiators. In this shootout, it did the best of all of them. I also decided on the MCP35X2 pump, based on a review from the same website. The big problem I am having is finding a copper waterblock for the CPU. I don't want to mix metals so I want to stick with all copper, to avoid corrosion. I am going with the XSPC's Razor GTX690 waterblocks for the GTX 690s. Once I can find a CPU waterblock, I am going to start ordering parts!

One option to place two rads in the lower section.....one longer and one shorter.....this rad article may prove to be helpful.
http://www.xtremesystems.org/forums/showthread.php?220874-More-Radiator-Sandwich-testing

I had seen that article, it was reproduced on Martin's Liquid Lab, website. They found that the best result was two radiators being used separately, with push/pull fans being second best. My plan is go with two radiators of two different sizes, as I mentioned above. I know that the current thinking is that the 140mm fans aren't as mature as 120mm fans, but I can always upgrade fans as they mature. 140mm fans are quickly becoming common options on cases, so I think they should be catching up pretty quickly.

 

[macforth]

I have just about finished my purchases.....and will start the build in a couple of weeks (travelling between now and then).
Here is most of my list :
http://rog.asus.com/forum/showthrea...s-and-comments-at-this-stage&country=&status=
I'm using the Swiftech Apogee II as the CPU water block and combined pump. Clearly there is very little difference between the top CPU water blocks; and the Swiftech Apogee II has, as the water block, the Swiftech Apogee HD Water Block, as it's basis. This has no materials except copper and polyacetal copolymer , and is amongst the top water blocks around for CPUs.
I am using the added pump as it is identical to each of the two pumps in the MCP35X2 and will thus behave similarly to PWM signals.

 

[aigomorla]

<--- kinda sad my 1.5yr old lc system i still use is considered apex still..



Good luck on your project.