Best Quarterbacks of all time

[HeroOfPellinor]

Originally posted by: wkabel23

Originally posted by: HeroOfPellinor

Originally posted by: jjsole

Originally posted by: HeroOfPellinor
I can't take any list seriously without Montana at the top.

Sorry. Fail.

Why should Montana be above Brady?

Joe Montana
Tom Brady

I cannot believe you posted links to their stats. LOL. If we're going to go off avg QB rating, then Joe Montana is only the 5th best 49er QB ever....behind all time greats like Tim Rattay and Jeff Garcia among others. Brillliant! Longevity? I say we rank Vinny Testaverde first. :roll: All that to say I can arguing with you would be pointless.

He provided some evidence to support his claims and you simply insulted him. I agree that Montana is the better QB, but are you 12 or something?

Confused? He didn't just pose a query, he preempted my argument with links to stats which I could only assume he was using as a counter argument. As most people know, stats tell only half the story and sometimes less. Or is Barry Bonds the greatest home run hitter of all time?

I like Brady a lot. I was actually far more impressed by him last year when he took them to the championship game with Gaffney and Brown and while Maroney was still developing. I'm not sure he's better than Peyton Manning. Manning is the only QB I think you could transplant to any other team and make them an instant contender. The way he reads defenses is freakish. I can't see Brady having that kind of impact. And no I have no hyperlinks to back that up. :roll:

But to pass up Joe Montana he needs to redefine the position and he's not going to do that. I'm at work so I can't dick around with a full essay, but I'll quickly summarize. First of all QBs were not babied in the 80's as much as thery are now. Safeties were still allowed to spear WRs back then so I'm pretty sure a hand graze across the helmet of a QB didn't qualify as roughing the passer. Montana was also the center of the pioneering west coast offense. As such he was the first QB to be called upon to make those complex reads and manage the team as much as consistently execute accurate passes. I also recall from some old games I was watching the other day how Montana, more than any QB I've seen and FAR more than Brady, hit his receivers in stride. It's probably a primary reason Rice had so many yards after the catch. His cool under pressure has never been equalled. And, yes, his stats are amazing as well....his lifetime QB ratings, 3 Super Bowl MVP awards, no picks in 4 Super Bowl wins.

The salary cap was supposed to create parity, but all it did was make the difference in coaching stand out more. Back in the 80's, there were the Buccaneers of the league, sure, but there were also a group of super powers like the Bears and Giants and 49ers who all had to slug it out with each other. Beating a bunch of teams after "parity" has got to be easier than beating up on some bottom feeders and playing the Super Bowl six times a year. The fact is Bellichik got it figured out and is just dominating everybody else right now because he knows how to manage the cap and is just a great adaptive manager of the game.

So there you go. I welcome your point by point rebuttal citing anecdotal evidence to counter my abbreviated subjective analysis. Happy now?

 

[invidia]

Rex Grossman should be on the list. At least in the Top 2.

 

[Nitemare]

Originally posted by: KeithTalent

Originally posted by: alchemize
If you didn't win a superbowl, you don't even belong on the list.

So you would take Marino off the list is what you are saying and replace him with who? Aikman? Bah.

KT

nope you replace him with Jeff Hostetler and Brad Johnson...

 

[Shlong]

Originally posted by: zinfamous
btw, If Brady is number 3 then his OL is number 1, and untouchable.

Any pissant QB can be good with the amount of time he gets.

You mean like the Patriots backup QB? When they benched Brady in the 3rd - 4th quarters, with the starting OL still in the game (garbage time) they had to put Brady back in because the score was getting too close for comfort.

 

[zinfamous]

Originally posted by: Shlong

Originally posted by: zinfamous
btw, If Brady is number 3 then his OL is number 1, and untouchable.

Any pissant QB can be good with the amount of time he gets.

You mean like the Patriots backup QB? When they benched Brady in the 3rd - 4th quarters, with the starting OL still in the game (garbage time) they had to put Brady back in because the score was getting too close for comfort.

OK then, how about a guy that's been allowed to play in a game before?

so then, Jeff Garcia would be number 3 with New England's O-line. that work for you?

 

[Analog]

Where's Steve Young, Troy Aikman, or Roger Staubach?

 

[Miramonti]

Originally posted by: HeroOfPellinor

Originally posted by: wkabel23

Originally posted by: HeroOfPellinor

Originally posted by: jjsole

Originally posted by: HeroOfPellinor
I can't take any list seriously without Montana at the top.

Sorry. Fail.

Why should Montana be above Brady?

Joe Montana
Tom Brady

I cannot believe you posted links to their stats. LOL. If we're going to go off avg QB rating, then Joe Montana is only the 5th best 49er QB ever....behind all time greats like Tim Rattay and Jeff Garcia among others. Brillliant! Longevity? I say we rank Vinny Testaverde first. :roll: All that to say I can arguing with you would be pointless.

He provided some evidence to support his claims and you simply insulted him. I agree that Montana is the better QB, but are you 12 or something?

Confused? He didn't just pose a query, he preempted my argument with links to stats which I could only assume he was using as a counter argument. As most people know, stats tell only half the story and sometimes less. Or is Barry Bonds the greatest home run hitter of all time?

I like Brady a lot. I was actually far more impressed by him last year when he took them to the championship game with Gaffney and Brown and while Maroney was still developing. I'm not sure he's better than Peyton Manning. Manning is the only QB I think you could transplant to any other team and make them an instant contender. The way he reads defenses is freakish. I can't see Brady having that kind of impact. And no I have no hyperlinks to back that up. :roll:

But to pass up Joe Montana he needs to redefine the position and he's not going to do that. I'm at work so I can't dick around with a full essay, but I'll quickly summarize. First of all QBs were not babied in the 80's as much as thery are now. Safeties were still allowed to spear WRs back then so I'm pretty sure a hand graze across the helmet of a QB didn't qualify as roughing the passer. Montana was also the center of the pioneering west coast offense. As such he was the first QB to be called upon to make those complex reads and manage the team as much as consistently execute accurate passes. I also recall from some old games I was watching the other day how Montana, more than any QB I've seen and FAR more than Brady, hit his receivers in stride. It's probably a primary reason Rice had so many yards after the catch. His cool under pressure has never been equalled. And, yes, his stats are amazing as well....his lifetime QB ratings, 3 Super Bowl MVP awards, no picks in 4 Super Bowl wins.

The salary cap was supposed to create parity, but all it did was make the difference in coaching stand out more. Back in the 80's, there were the Buccaneers of the league, sure, but there were also a group of super powers like the Bears and Giants and 49ers who all had to slug it out with each other. Beating a bunch of teams after "parity" has got to be easier than beating up on some bottom feeders and playing the Super Bowl six times a year. The fact is Bellichik got it figured out and is just dominating everybody else right now because he knows how to manage the cap and is just a great adaptive manager of the game.

So there you go. I welcome your point by point rebuttal citing anecdotal evidence to counter my abbreviated subjective analysis. Happy now?

I'm not sure you said anything that supported Montana much, maybe that he hit his receivers in stride more than Brady? but that's not true - if anything it only appeared that way with all the 5-10 yard crossing routes. If his passes were so good, why was his completion % less...while often throwing to arguably the best receiver to ever play the game? In fact I'd argue that Brady has more precision on the long routes due to his stronger arm. Both teams spread (spred) the offense exceptionally well to take pressure off different parts of the field.

Anyhow, my intention wasn't to call anyone out, I simply asked the question because its a worthy discussion, all hype aside, and I provided stats for people to take a look at.

All the things that I've held in such high esteem for Montana, Brady's simply doing as well and he still has perhaps 1/2 his career left. They are both fierce competitors and are unsurpassed under pressure imo, and both have the skill and mental makeup to be able to execute almost anything, anytime.

 

[Syringer]

Originally posted by: zinfamous

Originally posted by: Shlong

Originally posted by: zinfamous
btw, If Brady is number 3 then his OL is number 1, and untouchable.

Any pissant QB can be good with the amount of time he gets.

You mean like the Patriots backup QB? When they benched Brady in the 3rd - 4th quarters, with the starting OL still in the game (garbage time) they had to put Brady back in because the score was getting too close for comfort.

OK then, how about a guy that's been allowed to play in a game before?

so then, Jeff Garcia would be number 3 with New England's O-line. that work for you?

Patriots w/ Drew Bledsoe (who is a hell of a QB mind you) = 0 championships and mediocre records, then, all of a sudden Brady jumps onto the scene and wins one. Coincidence? Suure....

 

[The Boston Dangler]

Originally posted by: Syringer

Originally posted by: zinfamous

Originally posted by: Shlong

Originally posted by: zinfamous
btw, If Brady is number 3 then his OL is number 1, and untouchable.

Any pissant QB can be good with the amount of time he gets.

You mean like the Patriots backup QB? When they benched Brady in the 3rd - 4th quarters, with the starting OL still in the game (garbage time) they had to put Brady back in because the score was getting too close for comfort.

OK then, how about a guy that's been allowed to play in a game before?

so then, Jeff Garcia would be number 3 with New England's O-line. that work for you?

Patriots w/ Drew Bledsoe (who is a hell of a QB mind you) = 0 championships and mediocre records, then, all of a sudden Brady jumps onto the scene and wins one. Coincidence? Suure....

i was at bledsoe's last starting game. everyone in attendance saw brady was better in 2 possessions than bledsoe was all game.

 

[HeroOfPellinor]

Originally posted by: jjsole

Originally posted by: HeroOfPellinor

Originally posted by: wkabel23

Originally posted by: HeroOfPellinor

Originally posted by: jjsole

Originally posted by: HeroOfPellinor
I can't take any list seriously without Montana at the top.

Sorry. Fail.

Why should Montana be above Brady?

Joe Montana
Tom Brady

I cannot believe you posted links to their stats. LOL. If we're going to go off avg QB rating, then Joe Montana is only the 5th best 49er QB ever....behind all time greats like Tim Rattay and Jeff Garcia among others. Brillliant! Longevity? I say we rank Vinny Testaverde first. :roll: All that to say I can arguing with you would be pointless.

He provided some evidence to support his claims and you simply insulted him. I agree that Montana is the better QB, but are you 12 or something?

Confused? He didn't just pose a query, he preempted my argument with links to stats which I could only assume he was using as a counter argument. As most people know, stats tell only half the story and sometimes less. Or is Barry Bonds the greatest home run hitter of all time?

I like Brady a lot. I was actually far more impressed by him last year when he took them to the championship game with Gaffney and Brown and while Maroney was still developing. I'm not sure he's better than Peyton Manning. Manning is the only QB I think you could transplant to any other team and make them an instant contender. The way he reads defenses is freakish. I can't see Brady having that kind of impact. And no I have no hyperlinks to back that up. :roll:

But to pass up Joe Montana he needs to redefine the position and he's not going to do that. I'm at work so I can't dick around with a full essay, but I'll quickly summarize. First of all QBs were not babied in the 80's as much as thery are now. Safeties were still allowed to spear WRs back then so I'm pretty sure a hand graze across the helmet of a QB didn't qualify as roughing the passer. Montana was also the center of the pioneering west coast offense. As such he was the first QB to be called upon to make those complex reads and manage the team as much as consistently execute accurate passes. I also recall from some old games I was watching the other day how Montana, more than any QB I've seen and FAR more than Brady, hit his receivers in stride. It's probably a primary reason Rice had so many yards after the catch. His cool under pressure has never been equalled. And, yes, his stats are amazing as well....his lifetime QB ratings, 3 Super Bowl MVP awards, no picks in 4 Super Bowl wins.

The salary cap was supposed to create parity, but all it did was make the difference in coaching stand out more. Back in the 80's, there were the Buccaneers of the league, sure, but there were also a group of super powers like the Bears and Giants and 49ers who all had to slug it out with each other. Beating a bunch of teams after "parity" has got to be easier than beating up on some bottom feeders and playing the Super Bowl six times a year. The fact is Bellichik got it figured out and is just dominating everybody else right now because he knows how to manage the cap and is just a great adaptive manager of the game.

So there you go. I welcome your point by point rebuttal citing anecdotal evidence to counter my abbreviated subjective analysis. Happy now?

I'm not sure you said anything that supported Montana much, maybe that he hit his receivers in stride more than Brady? but that's not true - if anything it only appeared that way with all the 5-10 yard crossing routes. If his passes were so good, why was his completion % less...while often throwing to arguably the best receiver to ever play the game? In fact I'd argue that Brady has more precision on the long routes due to his stronger arm. Both teams spread (spred) the offense exceptionally well to take pressure off different parts of the field.

Anyhow, my intention wasn't to call anyone out, I simply asked the question because its a worthy discussion, all hype aside, and I provided stats for people to take a look at.

All the things that I've held in such high esteem for Montana, Brady's simply doing as well and he still has perhaps 1/2 his career left. They are both fierce competitors and are unsurpassed under pressure imo, and both have the skill and mental makeup to be able to execute almost anything, anytime.

So my subjective opinion still pales compared to your statistics. Still think I was being insulting, wkabel23, or just freaking perceptive?

 

[Syringer]

It's funny how draft order seems to be largely irrelevant for producing great QBs, it's all about development, and intangibles that you can't tell in a guy during his college days and combines..

1. Johnny Unitas - 9th rounder
2. Joe Montana - 3rd round, 82nd pick
3. Tom Brady - 6th round pick
4. Dan Marino - late first rounder
5. Peyton Manning - #1 pick
6. John Elway - #1 pick
7. Terry Bradshaw - #1 pick
8. Brett Favre - early 2nd rounder
9. Otto Graham - early first rounder
10. Dan Fouts - 3rd round

 

[marincounty]

Joe Montana is the best of all time. Of course, I am totally biased being a niner fan that made lots of money betting on Joe.
Johnny Unitas was also outstanding, my memories of watching him on tv as kid.

Everyone has overlooked Jim Plunkett, winner of two Superbowls and MVP of the Superbowl. Coming out of college he was one of the best prospects ever. Too bad he went to the horrible Patriots as the #1 pick in the draft. New England had no offensive line and Plunkett got a beating every week. He later had a shoulder separation that wrecked his tremendous arm strength.
Had Plunkett gone to a better team he might have been the best of all time.
People that saw him in college think he had the strongest arm ever, better than Elway.


In his senior year he led Stanford to their first Rose Bowl appearance since 1952, a game that ended with a 27-17 Stanford victory over the favored Ohio State Buckeyes.
With eighteen passing and three rushing touchdowns added to his 2,715 passing yards on the year (which broke his own conference record), Plunkett was awarded the 1970 Heisman Trophy given annually to the top college football player in the country. Though he had set so many records on the season, 1970 had been the "Year of the Quarterback," and Plunkett beat out Notre Dame's Joe Theismann and Archie Manning of Ole Miss to win the award. He was the first Latino to win the Heisman Trophy. Aside from the Heisman, he captured the Maxwell Award for the nation's best quarterback and was named player of the year by United Press International, The Sporting News, and SPORT magazine. In addition, the American College Football Coaches Association designated him as their Offensive Player of the Year.
Before he entered the NFL, UCLA coach Tommy Prothro had called him the "best pro quarterback prospect I've ever seen
Text

 

[GTaudiophile]

Manning over Favre? Manning is good but his career is just beginning IMO. He has time left to prove his worth.

 

[GasX]

Originally posted by: HeroOfPellinor
I can't take any list seriously without Montana at the top.

Sorry. Fail.

Seriously... It's like having Jerry Rice at #2

 

[KeithTalent]

Are all of you guys pining for Montana to be #1 Niners fans? My guess is yes.

KT

 

[Nitemare]

Bottom line is that Montana, Elway, Marino and most of that list played at a time when there were no 6'4 receivers and also the receivers were getting popped the whole time.

Do you think that someone like Ronnie Lott, Dick Butkis, Mike Singletary and Bennie Blades would allow the likes of a big mouthed prima-dona receiver to run unhindered down the field and then sign autographs in the end zone???

Maybe after they pick themselves off the ground a few times and gets chin checked.

Also, the qb wasn't protected as much, there was no slide rule or personal fouls for legal hits.

Mean Joe Greene, Bob Lilly, Dick Butkus, Deacon Jones, Reggie White and LT would have eaten Tom Brady, Peyton Manning and Drew Brees alive...hell even some of today's linebackers and ends could if the league hadn't pussified the rules to protect the QB.

Tom Brady drops back and has enough time to make a sandwich before he throws the ball. The only other QB on that list that had a line like that was Aikman. In any game where a defense can get to Brady, he has played like pure crap...

 

[thepd7]

Originally posted by: Nitemare
Bottom line is that Montana, Elway, Marino and most of that list played at a time when there were no 6'4 receivers and also the receivers were getting popped the whole time.

Do you think that someone like Ronnie Lott, Dick Butkis, Mike Singletary and Bennie Blades would allow the likes of a big mouthed prima-dona receiver to run unhindered down the field and then sign autographs in the end zone???

Maybe after they pick themselves off the ground a few times and gets chin checked.

Also, the qb wasn't protected as much, there was no slide rule or personal fouls for legal hits.

Mean Joe Greene, Bob Lilly, Dick Butkus, Deacon Jones, Reggie White and LT would have eaten Tom Brady, Peyton Manning and Drew Brees alive...hell even some of today's linebackers and ends could if the league hadn't pussified the rules to protect the QB.

Tom Brady drops back and has enough time to make a sandwich before he throws the ball. The only other QB on that list that had a line like that was Aikman. In any game where a defense can get to Brady, he has played like pure crap...

Wait so you are saying a quarterback does worse when people are sacking/hitting him....ohhhhhhh, I see!

I had no idea!

 

[Jack Ryan]

Originally posted by: HeroOfPellinor
I can't take any list seriously without Montana at the top.

Sorry. Fail.

 

[Jack Ryan]

Originally posted by: KeithTalent
Are all of you guys pining for Montana to be #1 Niners fans? My guess is yes.

KT

No, Giants.

 

[GasX]

Originally posted by: KeithTalent
Are all of you guys pining for Montana to be #1 Niners fans? My guess is yes.

KT

Not me, but when it was inside the 2 minute warning in the 4th quarter and your team was ahead by 5 points and the Niner's got the ball on their own 10 yard line, you knew you were f*cked...

 

[Nitemare]

Originally posted by: thepd7

Originally posted by: Nitemare
Bottom line is that Montana, Elway, Marino and most of that list played at a time when there were no 6'4 receivers and also the receivers were getting popped the whole time.

Do you think that someone like Ronnie Lott, Dick Butkis, Mike Singletary and Bennie Blades would allow the likes of a big mouthed prima-dona receiver to run unhindered down the field and then sign autographs in the end zone???

Maybe after they pick themselves off the ground a few times and gets chin checked.

Also, the qb wasn't protected as much, there was no slide rule or personal fouls for legal hits.

Mean Joe Greene, Bob Lilly, Dick Butkus, Deacon Jones, Reggie White and LT would have eaten Tom Brady, Peyton Manning and Drew Brees alive...hell even some of today's linebackers and ends could if the league hadn't pussified the rules to protect the QB.

Tom Brady drops back and has enough time to make a sandwich before he throws the ball. The only other QB on that list that had a line like that was Aikman. In any game where a defense can get to Brady, he has played like pure crap...

Wait so you are saying a quarterback does worse when people are sacking/hitting him....ohhhhhhh, I see!

I had no idea!

No, good quarterbacks will see it coming and audible a screen pass or have the tight end and/or rb stay in the backfield to block. I have seen Brady do this before, but not often.

 

[GasX]

And another thing. Stats are WAY over rated. I don't need to look at stats to know that Barry Sanders was the greatest RB ever.

Don't believe me?

 

[Nitemare]

Originally posted by: Mwilding
And another thing. Stats are WAY over rated. I don't need to look at stats to know that Barry Sanders was the greatest RB ever.

Don't believe me?

Agreed, you put him behind Emmit Smith's line with Aikman as QB and he'd probably rush for 2k yards every year...

 

[Miramonti]

Originally posted by: Nitemare
Bottom line is that Montana, Elway, Marino and most of that list played at a time when there were no 6'4 receivers and also the receivers were getting popped the whole time.

Do you think that someone like Ronnie Lott, Dick Butkis, Mike Singletary and Bennie Blades would allow the likes of a big mouthed prima-dona receiver to run unhindered down the field and then sign autographs in the end zone???

Maybe after they pick themselves off the ground a few times and gets chin checked.

Also, the qb wasn't protected as much, there was no slide rule or personal fouls for legal hits.

Mean Joe Greene, Bob Lilly, Dick Butkus, Deacon Jones, Reggie White and LT would have eaten Tom Brady, Peyton Manning and Drew Brees alive...hell even some of today's linebackers and ends could if the league hadn't pussified the rules to protect the QB.

Tom Brady drops back and has enough time to make a sandwich before he throws the ball. The only other QB on that list that had a line like that was Aikman. In any game where a defense can get to Brady, he has played like pure crap...

Glorifying the older generations and persona's is admirable but doesn't add up. Today's players, on both sides of the ball are bigger, faster, and tougher than they were previously. They have to be - their competition is more brutal and more jacked up. The game's played differently, players swap in and out more and many get more rest, but to suggest they're softer physically or mentally than years ago is misguided.

To also suggest WR's have more of an edge now because height has been invented lately is also misguided - they don't have any more of an edge than they did years ago. Competition is at a higher level on both sides of the ball.

As for the rules protecting the qb, there definitely are more, but that's because its near impossible to keep a qp on the active roster w/o protecting him with more rules. The average lineman and linebacker are far bigger and faster than previous decades, and the body of a qp is butter in comparison. That's what makes Favre not just great, but a god. Beyond him playing with pain, he's remarkably lucky. Qb's from back in the day wouldn't last any longer than today's qb's do...if anything, not as long because qb's are bigger and stronger now as well.

Just to finish with the mention of Ronnie Lott...Lott wasn't so much of an enforcer than an 'equal opportunitity hospitalizer'. John Lynch is the closest to him these days, but Lott was a freak of nature for toughness and talent - I miss watching him play.

 

[Nitemare]

Originally posted by: jjsole

Originally posted by: Nitemare
Bottom line is that Montana, Elway, Marino and most of that list played at a time when there were no 6'4 receivers and also the receivers were getting popped the whole time.

Do you think that someone like Ronnie Lott, Dick Butkis, Mike Singletary and Bennie Blades would allow the likes of a big mouthed prima-dona receiver to run unhindered down the field and then sign autographs in the end zone???

Maybe after they pick themselves off the ground a few times and gets chin checked.

Also, the qb wasn't protected as much, there was no slide rule or personal fouls for legal hits.

Mean Joe Greene, Bob Lilly, Dick Butkus, Deacon Jones, Reggie White and LT would have eaten Tom Brady, Peyton Manning and Drew Brees alive...hell even some of today's linebackers and ends could if the league hadn't pussified the rules to protect the QB.

Tom Brady drops back and has enough time to make a sandwich before he throws the ball. The only other QB on that list that had a line like that was Aikman. In any game where a defense can get to Brady, he has played like pure crap...

Glorifying the older generations and persona's is admirable but doesn't add up. Today's players, on both sides of the ball are bigger, faster, and tougher than they were previously. They have to be - their competition is more brutal and more jacked up. The game's played differently, players swap in and out more and many get more rest, but to suggest they're softer physically or mentally than years ago is misguided.

To also suggest WR's have more of an edge now because height has been invented lately is also misguided - they don't have any more of an edge than they did years ago. Competition is at a higher level on both sides of the ball.

As for the rules protecting the qb, there definitely are more, but that's because its near impossible to keep a qp on the active roster w/o protecting him with more rules. The average lineman and linebacker are far bigger and faster than previous decades, and the body of a qp is butter to impacting with them. That's what makes Favre not just great, but a god. Beyond him playing with pain, he's remarkably lucky. Qb's from back in the day wouldn't last any longer than today's qb's do...if anything, not as long because qb's are bigger and stronger now as well.

Just to finish with the mention of Ronnie Lott...Lott wasn't so much of an enforcer than an 'equal opportunitity hospitalizer'. John Lynch is the closest to him these days, but Lott was a freak of nature for toughness and talent - I miss watching him play.

Also, in the old rules, the defense could pretty much do anything they wanted to the wide receivers except for grab the facemask until the ball was in the air. So they had shorter receivers that were getting hand checked and knocked down...try that in todays NFL...

Todays players are more athletic, faster and whatnot, but they are pretty much limited in what they can do by the new NFL rules that drive up the scoring and protect their studs(QB's and WR's)

Yeah, not a 49ers fan, but loved to see Lott as well.