Best plan for older man (53)

[datalink7]

Greetings all.

My dad fell on hard times and moved in with me. Over the years he had put on a lot of weight. When he moved in with me about 10 months ago he weighed about 280 lbs and could barely make it up a flight of stairs without feeling out of breath (he is 6'1" tall).

I got him motivated to walk starting at the beginning of the year. He is good at pushing himself when he sets his mind to it. He quit smoking (from 2 1/2 packs a day) and started walking. At first he could barely go 1/4 of a mile. But he kept at it (and he likes my dog a lot so taking him on a walk was fun for him, and good for the dog).

He now just weighed in at 238 lbs and goes on 5 mile (and even a few 6-7 mile) walks 5-6 days a week. So he is doing really good. However the weigh loss has slowed down quite a bit and I was wondering what the next step could be.

He could try running a bit but I think it would be good to lose some more weight first. He broke his right wrist in the past and had carpel tunnel, so it is hard for him to do a lot of weights (wrists are weak and they start to hurt). But he can do some.

We have also worked on eating better foods (more fruits/vegetables and chicken instead of beef).

Anyway, any suggestions on what would be a good direction for him to go would be cool. Thanks a lot.

 

[brikis98]

Start with the fat loss sticky. If weight loss is the goal, getting his diet in order should be priority #1.

As for exercise, it kind of depends on what he's capable of. It's great that he's made huge progress with walking, so maybe he can afford to increase the intensity (which leads to increased fitness). Running is great, but if you think it's too stressful at his current weight, biking, rowing, or swimming would all be great low impact options. Some resistance training would also be great, as it helps prevent loss of muscle mass, increases bone density, and so on. No idea what kind of shape he's in, but starting with simple bodyweight exercises is always an option. Some push-ups, sit-ups, air squats, jumping squats, step-ups, box jumps, rows, pull-ups, and so on could be a good intro.

 

[Kaido]

Like brikis98 said, if he wants to lose weight, he has to start eating right. Stick with low-impact exercises, like walking, until he achieves his target weight.

The biggest thing I found to help me do this was to go to bed early - not being tired really boosts your motivation levels!

 

[Red Dawn]

Have him join a gym that has Elliptical Machines and Recumbent Bikes. Both will enable him to push himself harder without the pounding his knees, back,ect will take from even power walking let alone running.

 

[ShawnD1]

Does your dad have a homer simpson body? If so, you can probably get some testosterone from a doctor. Then he can eat anything he wants, do absolutely no exercise, and he'll still see tremendous gains in muscle mass.

testosterone therapy (first google result)
It will be a lot easier to get a doctor to give you this if you memorize the list of symptoms.

 

[SociallyChallenged]

Originally posted by: ShawnD1
Does your dad have a homer simpson body? If so, you can probably get some testosterone from a doctor. Then he can eat anything he wants, do absolutely no exercise, and he'll still see tremendous gains in muscle mass.

testosterone therapy (first google result)
It will be a lot easier to get a doctor to give you this if you memorize the list of symptoms.

What the hell? Wow. Testosterone is not the #1 answer here.

As everybody else has said, diet and low-risk exercise is the way to go. Hormones will not be necessary to lose weight and get a healthier body. It may be a later answer if he has some sort of pathology or would like to increase sex drive, etc, but right now - take care of the basics.

 

[ShawnD1]

Originally posted by: SociallyChallenged
As everybody else has said, diet and low-risk exercise is the way to go. Hormones will not be necessary to lose weight and get a healthier body. It may be a later answer if he has some sort of pathology or would like to increase sex drive, etc, but right now - take care of the basics.

I'm approaching this from a mathematical perspective. How many millions of people try to diet and exercise and just can't get it to work? Now compare that to the success rate of hormones. How many teen boys eat as much as 3 adults, have bones as strong as steel, have an out of control sex drive, and have very muscular bodies? Almost 100%? 90%?

My dad is in his 60s and exercise has yet to work for him. He's very muscular and he can walk a lot more miles than I can, but he's still very fat and suffers from all the things fat people have such as sleep apnea, snoring, and a sore back. The only reason I'm in better health than him is because I still have very high testosterone levels. My bones are a lot stronger than his, I have the classic "man shape" while he has the homer simpson shape, and I have a lot less fat even though he exercises more than me and I eat more than him.

If old people choose to kill themselves and not take hormones that could save their life, that's their choice. The OP's dad should at least know that the option to live longer is on the table.

 

[SociallyChallenged]

Originally posted by: ShawnD1

Originally posted by: SociallyChallenged
As everybody else has said, diet and low-risk exercise is the way to go. Hormones will not be necessary to lose weight and get a healthier body. It may be a later answer if he has some sort of pathology or would like to increase sex drive, etc, but right now - take care of the basics.

I'm approaching this from a mathematical perspective. How many millions of people try to diet and exercise and just can't get it to work? Now compare that to the success rate of hormones. How many teen boys eat as much as 3 adults, have bones as strong as steel, have an out of control sex drive, and have very muscular bodies? Almost 100%? 90%?

My dad is in his 60s and exercise has yet to work for him. He's very muscular and he can walk a lot more miles than I can, but he's still very fat and suffers from all the things fat people have such as sleep apnea, snoring, and a sore back. The only reason I'm in better health than him is because I still have very high testosterone levels. My bones are a lot stronger than his, I have the classic "man shape" while he has the homer simpson shape, and I have a lot less fat even though he exercises more than me and I eat more than him.

If old people choose to kill themselves and not take hormones that could save their life, that's their choice. The OP's dad should at least know that the option to live longer is on the table.

No, you're approaching it from an enabler's position. It's estimated that out of all obesity, only about 10% of it is caused by pathology. The other 90%? Laziness, poor diet, etc. Math shows that 90% of people who are fat are fat because they don't control their diets and they don't expend calories on things such as exercise.

Also, have you seen teens today? Probably close to half of them are overweight, underweight, or inactive. Your estimations are outlandish and unreasonable. My generation has been taught the benefits of exercise, diet, etc much more than your father's. This, along with sports and testosterone, is why young men are in good shape. However, there are those who aren't and have high levels of testosterone as well. As you can see, it is not the main effector in this game.

Your father doesn't seem to have done things right then. He is simply taking in too many calories. It is a simple concept. When your calorie expenditure is greater than your calorie consumption, you will always lose weight. It's as simple as that. Tell him to cut his calories down and I guarantee he will lose the belly.

If he actually went through with getting diet in check and doing some form of exercise 4-5 days a week, he would be healthier and in better shape than someone who just took testosterone. It's one of those things that is a potential benefit, but only after other measures have been taken.

 

[conorvansmack]

Exercise is free and won't f*ck with the other systems of your body. It's basically free of negative side-effects. I can't say the same for hormone therapies.

Testosterone therapy may be good for some, but I'll leave that recommendation for licensed, trained physicians.

 

[ShawnD1]

Originally posted by: SociallyChallenged
Also, have you seen teens today? Probably close to half of them are overweight, underweight, or inactive. Your estimations are outlandish and unreasonable.

I'm in my freshman year of electrical engineering and 0 people in my engineering classes are overweight. I see a about 60 people on a regular basis, some of them are in their mid 20s like myself, but most of the people are recent high school grades which would make them 18 or 19 years old. The idea that today's young people are all fat is a lie that the media loves to use to get attention. This is the same news media that comes up with crap like "child abduction epidemic" or "shark attack epidemic". Do you remember summer of the shark? Every day was talk about shark attacks and people dying and the world is ending because of sharks. Then they jump on the next bandwagon and claim that school shootings are everywhere and we're all going to die. Then they go to obesity and we're all fat and we're going to die. If you visit a university campus, you'll see that today's young people are no fatter than they were 10 years ago, 20 years ago, or 30 years ago.

This, along with sports and testosterone, is why young men are in good shape.

Most young men do not play sports. That was the whole point of that movie Revenge of the Nerds - jocks are a very small minority. Most of us are "nerds" who don't play sports yet we're all in good shape in our teens, 20s, and maybe even early 30s if we're lucky.

Your father doesn't seem to have done things right then. He is simply taking in too many calories.

He eats when he's hungry. What is your suggestion? Be hungry all the time and have mood swings? That hardly sounds like a good alternative. I think I'd rather kill myself than be constantly hungry for 20 years.

If he actually went through with getting diet in check and doing some form of exercise 4-5 days a week, he would be healthier and in better shape than someone who just took testosterone.

This doesn't work. One of my former bosses was an older gentleman with a gut and skinny girl arms even though he exercised on monday, wednesday, and friday. He only drank decaff coffee and used Splenda instead of sugar. He would always bring the most horrible sounding lunches like yogurt and steamed vegetables, and it just didn't work. He exercises more than me, he eats less sugar, he avoids caffeine (probably due to a heart condition), but I could still kick his ass just because I'm younger.

If you were healthy when you were 20 and you get progressively fatter and weaker as you get older and the only thing that noticeably decreased during that time was testosterone, it seems preposterous to ignore the obvious. Your hormone levels decrease and you try to fill that void with exercise? What sense does that make? Do I change my car's oil when the tires are low?

 

[brikis98]

Originally posted by: ShawnD1
I'm in my freshman year of electrical engineering and 0 people in my engineering classes are overweight. I see a about 60 people on a regular basis, some of them are in their mid 20s like myself, but most of the people are recent high school grades which would make them 18 or 19 years old. The idea that today's young people are all fat is a lie that the media loves to use to get attention. This is the same news media that comes up with crap like "child abduction epidemic" or "shark attack epidemic". Do you remember summer of the shark? Every day was talk about shark attacks and people dying and the world is ending because of sharks. Then they jump on the next bandwagon and claim that school shootings are everywhere and we're all going to die. Then they go to obesity and we're all fat and we're going to die. If you visit a university campus, you'll see that today's young people are no fatter than they were 10 years ago, 20 years ago, or 30 years ago.

You are demonstrably wrong and your (likely inaccurate) observations on a (tiny) sample size of 60 don't mean crap. Teen obesity rates have been skyrocketing in the US in the last 30 years:

From "Teen Obesity"

Obesity continued to increase dramatically during the late 1990s for Americans of all ages according to the data collected and analyzed by the National Center for Health Statistics, part of the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC).

The percent of children and teens who are overweight also continues to increase. Among children and teens ages six to 19, 15 percent (almost 9 million) are overweight according to the 1999-2000 data, or triple what the proportion was in 1980.

Originally posted by: ShawnD1
Most young men do not play sports. That was the whole point of that movie Revenge of the Nerds - jocks are a very small minority. Most of us are "nerds" who don't play sports yet we're all in good shape in our teens, 20s, and maybe even early 30s if we're lucky.

Are you seriously using a fictional movie as your point of reference?

Originally posted by: ShawnD1
He eats when he's hungry. What is your suggestion? Be hungry all the time and have mood swings? That hardly sounds like a good alternative. I think I'd rather kill myself than be constantly hungry for 20 years.

If you make the proper modifications to your diet, you can lose weight without being hungry. Making changes to how much you eat, what you eat and how often you eat can all make dramatic differences in hunger levels and weight loss. I recommend you read through the fat loss sticky.

Originally posted by: ShawnD1
This doesn't work. One of my former bosses was an older gentleman with a gut and skinny girl arms even though he exercised on monday, wednesday, and friday. He only drank decaff coffee and used Splenda instead of sugar. He would always bring the most horrible sounding lunches like yogurt and steamed vegetables, and it just didn't work. He exercises more than me, he eats less sugar, he avoids caffeine (probably due to a heart condition), but I could still kick his ass just because I'm younger.

Again, your single example is anecdotal evidence and means precisely nothing. Proper diet and exercise DO work for weight loss and improved fitness. The fact that this one guy you know is not successful is much more likely a sign that he's doing something wrong than a sign that your superior testosterone levels are the only explanation. Do you have any idea what he eats when he's at home? On the weekends? What does he actually do for exercise - leisurely ride an elliptical while watching TV?

Originally posted by: ShawnD1
If you were healthy when you were 20 and you get progressively fatter and weaker as you get older and the only thing that noticeably decreased during that time was testosterone, it seems preposterous to ignore the obvious.

It is just your assumption that the only thing that changes when a man ages is testosterone levels. What about the rate of metabolism? Healing? And if you think teenagers don't exercise much, you'd be amazed at how much lower activity levels are for adults. And do you think your testosterone argument would apply to women too?

 

[gramboh]

Originally posted by: ShawnD1
I'm in my freshman year of electrical engineering and 0 people in my engineering classes are overweight. I see a about 60 people on a regular basis, some of them are in their mid 20s like myself, but most of the people are recent high school grades which would make them 18 or 19 years old. The idea that today's young people are all fat is a lie that the media loves to use to get attention. This is the same news media that comes up with crap like "child abduction epidemic" or "shark attack epidemic". Do you remember summer of the shark? Every day was talk about shark attacks and people dying and the world is ending because of sharks. Then they jump on the next bandwagon and claim that school shootings are everywhere and we're all going to die. Then they go to obesity and we're all fat and we're going to die. If you visit a university campus, you'll see that today's young people are no fatter than they were 10 years ago, 20 years ago, or 30 years ago.

So you're an engineer and you take your anecdtoal evidence of your peer group to be valid evidence versus statistical studies/surveys of various population groups which show a growing trend in weight/less activity? Seriosuly? The media may or may not overblow the issue, but the underlying data is not biased. Also remember that a university campus is not a representation of broader society (generally it is more affluent people, goal oriented etc) so yes there will be less fatasses.

Most young men do not play sports. That was the whole point of that movie Revenge of the Nerds - jocks are a very small minority. Most of us are "nerds" who don't play sports yet we're all in good shape in our teens, 20s, and maybe even early 30s if we're lucky.

Define good shape. Not being fat is infintely better than being fat, but it does not mean you are healthy or in shape. To me, being in shape means certain athletic qualities. Being healthy means other qualities (good bloodwork, safe bodyfat %, decent diet etc). You are not in shape if you are not athletic and active, you are probably skinny and weak.

He eats when he's hungry. What is your suggestion? Be hungry all the time and have mood swings? That hardly sounds like a good alternative. I think I'd rather kill myself than be constantly hungry for 20 years.

The right answer is to eat whole unprocessed foods when hungry, with a focus on vegetables, some fruit, organic unprocessed meat, and maybe clean dairy/grains. Avoid the middle of the grocery store with all the boxed processed sugar junk. You are NOT hungry when you eat a healthy diet, it has nothing to do with starving yourself, it is the makeup of the diet that matters.

This doesn't work. One of my former bosses was an older gentleman with a gut and skinny girl arms even though he exercised on monday, wednesday, and friday. He only drank decaff coffee and used Splenda instead of sugar. He would always bring the most horrible sounding lunches like yogurt and steamed vegetables, and it just didn't work. He exercises more than me, he eats less sugar, he avoids caffeine (probably due to a heart condition), but I could still kick his ass just because I'm younger.

Your former boss clearly had no idea how to train or eat properly if he had that body type. A healthy diet with proper training will produce an anthletic body. Unprocessed yogurt is fine, processed yogurt is sugar.

If you were healthy when you were 20 and you get progressively fatter and weaker as you get older and the only thing that noticeably decreased during that time was testosterone, it seems preposterous to ignore the obvious. Your hormone levels decrease and you try to fill that void with exercise? What sense does that make? Do I change my car's oil when the tires are low?

I was very active as a youth up until 16 (multiple sports, playing outside all the time). From 16-18 it curtailed and went up to about 185 pounds. In university (18-23) I was inactive and stayed about the same weight. My first year of work I put on another 40# (up to 220) or so from drinking and eating food court crap every day. I'm now 28 and after 1.5 years of proper training I am 198# but with significant muscle mass and in the best shape of my life. Age matters in terms of recovery but you can get in great shape any time. My dad was 30-40# overweight from age 35-50. Around age 50# he cleaned up his diet and started taking up triathalon/distance running, he is now 165# and very clean, his bloodwork/BP is in the healthy range of a 25 year old and he is in the best shape of his life.

You do not need hormone therapy to be healthy. It should be used only for pathological cases like SC mentions above. People have no one to blame but themselves for not having a decent diet/exercise regiment, this is a huge problem with our society.

 

[gramboh]

Oops, Brikis beat me to the punch, should've checked to see if you were online before typing that one up 🙂.

 

[conorvansmack]

Originally posted by: gramboh
Oops, Brikis beat me to the punch, should've checked to see if you were online before typing that one up 🙂.

He is pretty quick on the draw when crap like this is out there, but it takes some time to get a gun that big out of the holster, fact-checking and whatnot.

 

[SociallyChallenged]

Originally posted by: brikis98

Originally posted by: ShawnD1
I'm in my freshman year of electrical engineering and 0 people in my engineering classes are overweight. I see a about 60 people on a regular basis, some of them are in their mid 20s like myself, but most of the people are recent high school grades which would make them 18 or 19 years old. The idea that today's young people are all fat is a lie that the media loves to use to get attention. This is the same news media that comes up with crap like "child abduction epidemic" or "shark attack epidemic". Do you remember summer of the shark? Every day was talk about shark attacks and people dying and the world is ending because of sharks. Then they jump on the next bandwagon and claim that school shootings are everywhere and we're all going to die. Then they go to obesity and we're all fat and we're going to die. If you visit a university campus, you'll see that today's young people are no fatter than they were 10 years ago, 20 years ago, or 30 years ago.

You are demonstrably wrong and your (likely inaccurate) observations on a (tiny) sample size of 60 don't mean crap. Teen obesity rates have been skyrocketing in the US in the last 30 years:

From "Teen Obesity"

Obesity continued to increase dramatically during the late 1990s for Americans of all ages according to the data collected and analyzed by the National Center for Health Statistics, part of the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC).

The percent of children and teens who are overweight also continues to increase. Among children and teens ages six to 19, 15 percent (almost 9 million) are overweight according to the 1999-2000 data, or triple what the proportion was in 1980.

Originally posted by: ShawnD1
Most young men do not play sports. That was the whole point of that movie Revenge of the Nerds - jocks are a very small minority. Most of us are "nerds" who don't play sports yet we're all in good shape in our teens, 20s, and maybe even early 30s if we're lucky.

Are you seriously using a fictional movie as your point of reference?

Originally posted by: ShawnD1
He eats when he's hungry. What is your suggestion? Be hungry all the time and have mood swings? That hardly sounds like a good alternative. I think I'd rather kill myself than be constantly hungry for 20 years.

If you make the proper modifications to your diet, you can lose weight without being hungry. Making changes to how much you eat, what you eat and how often you eat can all make dramatic differences in hunger levels and weight loss. I recommend you read through the fat loss sticky.

Originally posted by: ShawnD1
This doesn't work. One of my former bosses was an older gentleman with a gut and skinny girl arms even though he exercised on monday, wednesday, and friday. He only drank decaff coffee and used Splenda instead of sugar. He would always bring the most horrible sounding lunches like yogurt and steamed vegetables, and it just didn't work. He exercises more than me, he eats less sugar, he avoids caffeine (probably due to a heart condition), but I could still kick his ass just because I'm younger.

Again, your single example is anecdotal evidence and means precisely nothing. Proper diet and exercise DO work for weight loss and improved fitness. The fact that this one guy you know is not successful is much more likely a sign that he's doing something wrong than a sign that your superior testosterone levels are the only explanation. Do you have any idea what he eats when he's at home? On the weekends? What does he actually do for exercise - leisurely ride an elliptical while watching TV?

Originally posted by: ShawnD1
If you were healthy when you were 20 and you get progressively fatter and weaker as you get older and the only thing that noticeably decreased during that time was testosterone, it seems preposterous to ignore the obvious.

It is just your assumption that the only thing that changes when a man ages is testosterone levels. What about the rate of metabolism? Healing? And if you think teenagers don't exercise much, you'd be amazed at how much lower activity levels are for adults. And do you think your testosterone argument would apply to women too?

Ding ding ding. Your sample populations are not relevant. Studies have shown that obesity rates in all age brackets are increasing at an alarming rate.

Keep in mind you have a higher metabolism when you're younger. That is not a function of testosterone. As people get older, they tend to eat the same, but have slower metabolisms. They don't accommodate for their slowing metabolisms. Your father doesn't have to be hungry at all. I wrote the fat loss sticky so people wouldn't have to do that.

Also, to address the "as you get older, you get fatter" kind of thing. There are SO many variables that affect that: when you're older you have a sit-down job 8-10 hours a day, but when you're younger you have 5-6 hours of school and often dick around the rest of the day; younger people have more time for sports and are more likely to play them; younger people have faster metabolisms; younger people often times have a better drive and aren't jaded by the workforce. There are tons more that effect this. Testosterone is one of the very few. If you don't utilize testosterone via exercise and such, it doesn't really help.

Your example diet person was doing it wrong. If he did it as outlined in the fat loss sticky, he would be eating things like chili, a piece of fruit, and a handful of almonds for lunch. I know many people who eat great while cutting.

You are cutting out so many other variables. Your "results" are being confounded by other variables. That is a flaw of research and you're not even presenting any. I truly hope that you learn to embrace that diet is king, exercise is second in command when it comes to weight loss. Testosterone is a feature that is WAY WAY down the line, under things like what type of exercises you do, basal activity, mood, stress, etc.

 

[ShawnD1]

Originally posted by: ShawnD1
Most young men do not play sports. That was the whole point of that movie Revenge of the Nerds - jocks are a very small minority. Most of us are "nerds" who don't play sports yet we're all in good shape in our teens, 20s, and maybe even early 30s if we're lucky.

Are you seriously using a fictional movie as your point of reference?

Are you claiming that movies never have any basis in reality? I don't know about your high school but mine had roughly 600 students per grade but only 2 gym classes per grade which would be about 50-60 students. That's less than 10% of people willing to take a gym class for an easy 5 credits. Even grade 12 calculus had 3 classes. There were more people in calculus than gym. That doesn't mean only 10% of people are physically active, but it should give you some idea of how physical my high school's population was when so few people would take a class that is a lot of fun for anyone who enjoys sports and camping (there was a camping trip at the end of the year).

Originally posted by: ShawnD1
He eats when he's hungry. What is your suggestion? Be hungry all the time and have mood swings? That hardly sounds like a good alternative. I think I'd rather kill myself than be constantly hungry for 20 years.

If you make the proper modifications to your diet, you can lose weight without being hungry. Making changes to how much you eat, what you eat and how often you eat can all make dramatic differences in hunger levels and weight loss. I recommend you read through the fat loss sticky.

Your appetite is largely a product of your hormones. This is why pregnant women have the most ridiculous food cravings. They don't have any change to their diet or exercise level until one day without warning their appetite dramatically increases and they start eating weird things they wouldn't normally eat such as cheese on pickels.

Ghrelin, the appetite hormone. Many other sites say the exact same thing.

Your diet will only have a profound effect on your appetite if what you are taking in lacks certain things and is preventing your body from creating hormones and neurotransmitters that it would normally make. A lot of the time this basically amounts to brain starvation. In the case of becoming a vegetarian to reduce appetite and reduce the production of things like ghrelin, this is because many hormones are made from cholesterol and much of our cholesterol comes from meat. This seems a lot more intuitive when you notice that testosterone, cholesterol, progesterone, and estrogen are all steroid compounds. A reduction in meat intake (which is often recommended to people losing weight) leads to a reduction of hormone production.

What you are saying about changing your diet to change your appetite is absolutely correct, but it's throwing the baby out with the bath water. Your appetite goes down, but you're stacking the cards against yourself because your anabolic hormones are also going down. In the most extreme cases, we're left between the option of being the muscular fat guy who eats lots (my dad) or being the anemic skinny guy who eats less. One is as bad as the other. What hormone therapy does is propose a third option. Testosterone is an anabolic steroid and as such it allows for more muscle to grow with less effort in a shorter period of time. If you're a middle aged man, you've probably noticed by now that you don't gain muscle as quickly now as you did in your earlier years. You can exercise all day and night and not build any muscle if your body doesn't feel like adding muscle mass. Hormone therapy fixes this problem and allows your exercise to actually do something and build muscle.

Originally posted by: ShawnD1
This doesn't work. One of my former bosses was an older gentleman with a gut and skinny girl arms even though he exercised on monday, wednesday, and friday. He only drank decaff coffee and used Splenda instead of sugar. He would always bring the most horrible sounding lunches like yogurt and steamed vegetables, and it just didn't work. He exercises more than me, he eats less sugar, he avoids caffeine (probably due to a heart condition), but I could still kick his ass just because I'm younger.

Again, your single example is anecdotal evidence and means precisely nothing. Proper diet and exercise DO work for weight loss and improved fitness. The fact that this one guy you know is not successful is much more likely a sign that he's doing something wrong than a sign that your superior testosterone levels are the only explanation. Do you have any idea what he eats when he's at home? On the weekends? What does he actually do for exercise - leisurely ride an elliptical while watching TV?

I don't know what he eats at home but I would assume that it's the same bad tasting low-sugar yogurt and splenda coffee he had at work. If he were to cheat on his diet and eat stuff he shouldn't be eating, that would most likely happen at work where his wife can't see it. As for exercise, he did "strength training" but with reduced weight. Instead of bench pressing hundreds of pounds to look huge, he was doing lighter amounts like 40lbs in order to maintain a respectable amount of muscle. It sounds like the kind of weight loss strategy one would get from a dietitian or personal trainer. I doubt he was getting advice from an endocrinologist or other type qualified medical doctor who would likely suggest hormones.

Originally posted by: ShawnD1
If you were healthy when you were 20 and you get progressively fatter and weaker as you get older and the only thing that noticeably decreased during that time was testosterone, it seems preposterous to ignore the obvious.

It is just your assumption that the only thing that changes when a man ages is testosterone levels. What about the rate of metabolism? Healing? And if you think teenagers don't exercise much, you'd be amazed at how much lower activity levels are for adults. And do you think your testosterone argument would apply to women too?

[/quote]
Metabolism is strongly affected by muscle mass and your muscle mass is strongly affected by your hormones. Healing is also affected by hormones since healing involves the building of new tissue. That's not just blind guessing; studies have confirmed that topical estrogen greatly accelerates healing and the study uses the wording "delays in wound healing in the elderly" because that's what the study is trying to address. Does a hormone applied to a wound reverse the delayed healing seen in old people? Yes it does. As for adults being less active, that's certainly true in some people but not everyone. If you want to know what hard work is, try being a parent for a few days. That is probably the most intense job you'll ever have. As for women seeing changes as they get older, yes that is partly caused by testosterone decreasing as they get older. The same hormones do the same things in all humans. Women don't change the same way as men because their hormones are not changing in the same proportions as men; old women start to grow mustaches while old men often have hairless legs. why is that?

You do not need hormone therapy to be healthy. It should be used only for pathological cases like SC mentions above. People have no one to blame but themselves for not having a decent diet/exercise regiment, this is a huge problem with our society.

Many doctors do not agree with you. Menopausal women getting hormone replacement to fix hot flashes, old age depression, and female sexual dysfunction is very common. You'll have a hard time finding a credible doctor who disagrees with replacing hormones as people get older, and we've known about these decreasing hormone levels for decades. In other news, it turns out men are human beings as well and as such are subject to the same medical treatment as women. This ground breaking news is sure to change our long held belief that men are actually made of magic.

 

[SociallyChallenged]

Originally posted by: ShawnD1
Are you claiming that movies never have any basis in reality? I don't know about your high school but mine had roughly 600 students per grade but only 2 gym classes per grade which would be about 50-60 students. That's less than 10% of people willing to take a gym class for an easy 5 credits. Even grade 12 calculus had 3 classes. There were more people in calculus than gym. That doesn't mean only 10% of people are physically active, but it should give you some idea of how physical my high school's population was when so few people would take a class that is a lot of fun for anyone who enjoys sports and camping (there was a camping trip at the end of the year).

Your appetite is largely a product of your hormones. This is why pregnant women have the most ridiculous food cravings. They don't have any change to their diet or exercise level until one day without warning their appetite dramatically increases and they start eating weird things they wouldn't normally eat such as cheese on pickels.

Ghrelin, the appetite hormone. Many other sites say the exact same thing.

Your diet will only have a profound effect on your appetite if what you are taking in lacks certain things and is preventing your body from creating hormones and neurotransmitters that it would normally make. A lot of the time this basically amounts to brain starvation. In the case of becoming a vegetarian to reduce appetite and reduce the production of things like ghrelin, this is because many hormones are made from cholesterol and much of our cholesterol comes from meat. This seems a lot more intuitive when you notice that testosterone, cholesterol, progesterone, and estrogen are all steroid compounds. A reduction in meat intake (which is often recommended to people losing weight) leads to a reduction of hormone production.

What you are saying about changing your diet to change your appetite is absolutely correct, but it's throwing the baby out with the bath water. Your appetite goes down, but you're stacking the cards against yourself because your anabolic hormones are also going down. In the most extreme cases, we're left between the option of being the muscular fat guy who eats lots (my dad) or being the anemic skinny guy who eats less. One is as bad as the other. What hormone therapy does is propose a third option. Testosterone is an anabolic steroid and as such it allows for more muscle to grow with less effort in a shorter period of time. If you're a middle aged man, you've probably noticed by now that you don't gain muscle as quickly now as you did in your earlier years. You can exercise all day and night and not build any muscle if your body doesn't feel like adding muscle mass. Hormone therapy fixes this problem and allows your exercise to actually do something and build muscle.

I don't know what he eats at home but I would assume that it's the same bad tasting low-sugar yogurt and splenda coffee he had at work. If he were to cheat on his diet and eat stuff he shouldn't be eating, that would most likely happen at work where his wife can't see it. As for exercise, he did "strength training" but with reduced weight. Instead of bench pressing hundreds of pounds to look huge, he was doing lighter amounts like 40lbs in order to maintain a respectable amount of muscle. It sounds like the kind of weight loss strategy one would get from a dietitian or personal trainer. I doubt he was getting advice from an endocrinologist or other type qualified medical doctor who would likely suggest hormones.

Metabolism is strongly affected by muscle mass and your muscle mass is strongly affected by your hormones. Healing is also affected by hormones since healing involves the building of new tissue. That's not just blind guessing; studies have confirmed that topical estrogen greatly accelerates healing and the study uses the wording "delays in wound healing in the elderly" because that's what the study is trying to address. Does a hormone applied to a wound reverse the delayed healing seen in old people? Yes it does. As for adults being less active, that's certainly true in some people but not everyone. If you want to know what hard work is, try being a parent for a few days. That is probably the most intense job you'll ever have. As for women seeing changes as they get older, yes that is partly caused by testosterone decreasing as they get older. The same hormones do the same things in all humans. Women don't change the same way as men because their hormones are not changing in the same proportions as men; old women start to grow mustaches while old men often have hairless legs. why is that?

Many doctors do not agree with you. Menopausal women getting hormone replacement to fix hot flashes, old age depression, and female sexual dysfunction is very common. You'll have a hard time finding a credible doctor who disagrees with replacing hormones as people get older, and we've known about these decreasing hormone levels for decades. In other news, it turns out men are human beings as well and as such are subject to the same medical treatment as women. This ground breaking news is sure to change our long held belief that men are actually made of magic.

First of all, this is not indicative of most high schools. My high school had 2600 students, of which at least 500 participated in sports. It's even higher than that at schools renowned for athletic ability such as Long Beach Poly. These rates vary. However, the main thing mentioned was METABOLISM. When you're younger, you have a higher metabolism regardless of testosterone presence (young girls have much higher metabolisms than women).

Also, you didn't touch the fat loss sticky, did you? The fat loss sticky suggests a fairly high protein intake so if you're doing it right, your argument is null. Diet does effect genetics clearly. However, the amounts you're trying to refer to are insignificant while cutting. Your body won't automatically make testosterone simply because cholesterol is present. It tapers off dramatically after a certain amount has been made - an amount that can be easily met while cutting.

You must not understand human biology or effects of exercise on the human body at all. Yeah, you can be the muscular fat guy if you're eating too much or eating a poor proportion of macronutrients. You can also be the anorexic kid if you're not eating enough. However, if you are on a resistance program while cutting, your body puts a priority on muscle maintenance and takes energy from fat stores rather than making glucose from glucogenic amino acids. Hormone therapy is just like every other "cure all." It can be addressed by honing in other, choice-based things (ie diet, exercise, stress management). Have you ever heard of Jack Lalanne? He maintained great shape into his old age through superior diet and exercise.

Metabolism and muscle mass are important variables affected by hormones, yes. However, what we're saying is that there are some things that effect these more, such as activity levels, diet, and lifestyle. Clearly hormones are important and if they're way out of whack, then you're gonna have problems; but we're talking about people who have a gradual decrease of testosterone. This decrease isn't destroying processes. Even as hormone production decreases, metabolism and muscle mass can still be effected a great deal by activity alone.

These women suffer from some very uncomfortable and unpleasant side effects when going through menopause. Men do not have the same side effects. The characteristics of age, like you said, do not effect men the way they do women. This is exactly my point. Men CAN and HAVE and DO all the things that they have done in the past with no problems if they have been active and maintain a healthy diet.

 

[Terzo]

I have a question somewhat related to the op;
At what age should one consult a doctor before starting a fitness program like starting strength? That is assuming the person in question is simply overweight and otherwise healthy.
Theoretically, should an 80 year old be able to pick up starting strength without any issues (barring arthritis and what not)?

 

[SociallyChallenged]

Originally posted by: Terzo
I have a question somewhat related to the op;
At what age should one consult a doctor before starting a fitness program like starting strength? That is assuming the person in question is simply overweight and otherwise healthy.
Theoretically, should an 80 year old be able to pick up starting strength without any issues (barring arthritis and what not)?

If an individual is physically fit to exercise and without pathology or damage to the body, then he or she can do programs like that at any age. People do CrossFit in their 60's and it is an intense training program.

However, you have to ask when is it too little, too late? Get started as early as you can because things solidify more and more as you continue down the road.

 

[brikis98]

Originally posted by: ShawnD1
Are you claiming that movies never have any basis in reality?

Based in reality? Sure. Valid as an argument for jumping into testosterone therapy instead of trying diet and exercise? Hell no.

Originally posted by: ShawnD1
I don't know about your high school but mine had roughly 600 students per grade but only 2 gym classes per grade which would be about 50-60 students. That's less than 10% of people willing to take a gym class for an easy 5 credits. Even grade 12 calculus had 3 classes. There were more people in calculus than gym. That doesn't mean only 10% of people are physically active, but it should give you some idea of how physical my high school's population was when so few people would take a class that is a lot of fun for anyone who enjoys sports and camping (there was a camping trip at the end of the year).

Do you even know what the word anecdotal means?

Originally posted by: ShawnD1
Your appetite is largely a product of your hormones. This is why pregnant women have the most ridiculous food cravings. They don't have any change to their diet or exercise level until one day without warning their appetite dramatically increases and they start eating weird things they wouldn't normally eat such as cheese on pickels.

Of course hormones affect appetite, but they are not the only thing. Moreover, your diet affects your hormones. So does exercise!

Originally posted by: ShawnD1
Your diet will only have a profound effect on your appetite if what you are taking in lacks certain things and is preventing your body from creating hormones and neurotransmitters that it would normally make. A lot of the time this basically amounts to brain starvation. In the case of becoming a vegetarian to reduce appetite and reduce the production of things like ghrelin, this is because many hormones are made from cholesterol and much of our cholesterol comes from meat. This seems a lot more intuitive when you notice that testosterone, cholesterol, progesterone, and estrogen are all steroid compounds. A reduction in meat intake (which is often recommended to people losing weight) leads to a reduction of hormone production.

Who the hell is arguing in favor of a vegetarian diet? Or cutting out meat? Did you look at the fat loss sticky at all? The suggestion there is to eat more protein and to do weight training to mitigate loss of lean body mass. If your conception of a "proper diet" is to stop eating meat, I can see why you'd recommend testosterone therapy, but believe me, vegetarianism has nothing to do with what we're recommending here.

Originally posted by: ShawnD1
Your appetite goes down, but you're stacking the cards against yourself because your anabolic hormones are also going down. In the most extreme cases, we're left between the option of being the muscular fat guy who eats lots (my dad) or being the anemic skinny guy who eats less. One is as bad as the other.

Again, read the goddamn fat loss sticky. If you eat a healthy diet with lots of fruits & veggies, keep your protein intake high, and do weight training (ie, "proper diet & exercise") you will lose fat but will NOT end up as an "anemic skinny guy". In many cases, you'll drop a bunch of fat and get a hell of a lot stronger. Many people on this forum (including myself) have done it. It works. And there are no negative side effects - in fact, every measurable health stat improves from this. The same cannot be said for injecting hormones in your body.

Originally posted by: ShawnD1
I don't know what he eats at home but I would assume that it's the same bad tasting low-sugar yogurt and splenda coffee he had at work. If he were to cheat on his diet and eat stuff he shouldn't be eating, that would most likely happen at work where his wife can't see it.

And so, your example is not only anecdotal, but also utterly incomplete and worthless.

Originally posted by: ShawnD1
As for exercise, he did "strength training" but with reduced weight. Instead of bench pressing hundreds of pounds to look huge, he was doing lighter amounts like 40lbs in order to maintain a respectable amount of muscle. It sounds like the kind of weight loss strategy one would get from a dietitian or personal trainer.

Read the fat loss sticky. The recommendation is to lift heavy. There are plenty of idiotic dietitians or personal trainers who might recommend lifting light, but no one that actually understands strength training would ever do that.

Originally posted by: ShawnD1
Metabolism is strongly affected by muscle mass and your muscle mass is strongly affected by your hormones. Healing is also affected by hormones since healing involves the building of new tissue. That's not just blind guessing; studies have confirmed that topical estrogen greatly accelerates healing and the study uses the wording "delays in wound healing in the elderly" because that's what the study is trying to address. Does a hormone applied to a wound reverse the delayed healing seen in old people? Yes it does.

Metabolism is affected by MANY factors. Muscle mass plays a role, but not a major one - 1lb of muscle burns only ~4 more calories than 1lb of fat per day. If you replaced 20lbs of fat with 20lbs of muscle (a very impressive achievement), you'd only be burning an extra 80 calories per day as a result. However, the activity needed to lose that fat and build and maintain that muscle - what we call proper diet and exercise - tend to be far more important.

Originally posted by: ShawnD1
As for adults being less active, that's certainly true in some people but not everyone. If you want to know what hard work is, try being a parent for a few days. That is probably the most intense job you'll ever have.

You are again demonstrably wrong. As you can see from this chart, physical activity levels drop consistently as age increases. Yes, taking care of a child is demanding and exhausting, but it is not even in the same ballpark as sports, weight training, etc in terms of its beneficial effects on health.

Originally posted by: ShawnD1
As for women seeing changes as they get older, yes that is partly caused by testosterone decreasing as they get older. The same hormones do the same things in all humans. Women don't change the same way as men because their hormones are not changing in the same proportions as men; old women start to grow mustaches while old men often have hairless legs. why is that?

You are contradicting yourself. The level of testosterone in women INCREASES as they age - THAT is why they may grow mustaches and see other bizzare changes. Despite that... older women are still fatter than young women. How odd!

 

[Kipper]

He's obviously a troll. Nobody has their head that much in their sand.