Best option for backing up personal data?

[CurseTheSky]

Hi guys,

I have a Western Digital 640GB AAKS that I use as a secondary storage drive. It hasn't shown any signs of faltering, but there are a number of items on it I would really hate to lose. There's nothing mission critical, just personal stuff.

I'm looking for a quick and easy way to keep a secondary backup of the files. I'd prefer something automatic, and I only care about certain files; having an image of the entire drive isn't important (though it wouldn't hurt). Finally, the less I have to spend, the better.

What's my best option? I've considered buying a second 640GB AAKS and creating an onboard RAID 1. Even though it's generally not a good idea to do a software RAID (onboard), I figured if it was just a RAID 1 it shouldn't hurt, since it's just mirroring the drive anyway. Or, would I be better off grabbing an external hard drive and some software to do the backups for me?

Thanks.

 

[Elixer]

Well, RAID 1 shouldn't be used for 'backups' per se, since if 1 drive gets corrupted with a virus (or whatever), then the other drive will mirror the damage, and then your screwed.

You can go with a external case + another 640GB HD + whatever backup software, and you should be OK for the most part, and the stuff you really, really hate to lose, copy that onto something else (another HD, DVD, whatever).

 

[elconejito]

Agreed. RAID1 is handy if one drive fails you've instantly got the data, no downtime. But if something happens to one drive like an accidental delete, virus, PSU failure, etc. then your screwed.

Another WD 640 or similar drive in an external enclosure is a good bet. Lots of tools for backup. Something like SyncToy 2.0 from Microsoft will do a "copy" of files and can be scheduled. I think Vista comes with a "Backup" tool that does an image-type of bcakup. It's only readable by the same tool as far as I know.

 

[mjrpes3]

SyncToy 2.0 is a good program that I use on demand but I don't see where you can schedule backups with it.

I've been using a free program for years call Cobian Backup that lets you manage multiple backups and has a well featured and easy to use scheduler.

http://www.educ.umu.se/~cobian/cobianbackup.htm

 

[elconejito]

You schedule it with Windows Task Scheduler. There is a description i the help pages of the program. Takes just a few secs to setup.

Another one that is really nice, but it's a command line utility is robocopy. Comes with Vista and is available for download for XP.

 

[Binky]

I'd look into online backups for the smaller and more impoprtant stuff like pictures and documents. Mozy and others give you 2GB+ for free. Microsoft Live Mesh gives you 5GB but it works a little different that just a backup.

Online backup isnt really effective for larger files given the cost and time requirements (e.g. movies and music).

 

[Luddite]

Hi, I had a very similar question, so instead of starting a new thread I thought I would ask it here.

The question is about internal vs. external drives for backing up personal data.

Do most folks use more than one internal drive simply for more storage space, or are internal drives good for backing up files as well? I understand that more than one internal drive spreads the risk of drive failure, but are there advantages to backing up data on an external drive? Is it better to do so? If so, why?

Apart from drive failure, is there anything that could happen to one's entire system that would put all internal hard drives at risk? If say, the power supply fails, for example, would this damage or affect all the internal hard drives as well, or is it merely a matter of replacing the PSU with a new one and carrying on as before? For an external drive, is there anything (apart from drive failure, or a virus) that could damage or negatively affect the external drive?

Sorry for the newbish questions, but I don't quite understand all the potential mechanical problems a hard drive could be susceptible to, and whether an external is better or the same (risk wise) as an internal drive. I am trying to decide which one to get. Like the OP the amount of data I need to back up is not great, and like the OP, mostly photos, music, emails and small documents. Right now I just use a thumb drive, but as I gradually need more back up space, I'm not sure whether to stick another HDD inside my desktop, or connect an external drive to it.

Thanks.

 

[taltamir]

RAID1 is better than a lot of backup schemes... but ideally you should have BOTH.
Your data protection should be disaster oriented...

for example, drive failure... protection? RAID1 or backups.
Theft: DVD backups (they are gonna steal your external drive and USB flash, they are not likely to steal your DVD-R collection, especially if stored somewhere inconspicuous.
Fire: offsite backup... aka, burn on a disk and give to a friend or family member.
bit rot: par2 files on disk, regularly check the disks to make sure they work (optical media degrades QUICKLY!)

 

[taltamir]

I wrote a guide, here: http://forums.anandtech.com/me...id=2228539&STARTPAGE=1

 

[elconejito]

Thats a very good guide taltamir. Lots of scenarios I hadn't thought of

@Luddite - My $0.02... I think the main reason you would want both is that what would destroy an internal backup (PSU failure for example) is *different* than what would destroy an external backup (knocking to the floor from the desk, for example). You just don't want your backup to be prone to the same disaster as the original.

 

[Luddite]

Thanks Taltamir for the guide. It leans more towards business usage, but it gave me a better idea of what to watch out for.

Elconejito, I was thinking along the lines of having a 3 point security level: 1). internal drive, 2). external drive and 3). portable or off-site storage. I have nothing mission critical that would destroy my life if I lost it. I'm still not sure exactly what the threats are to internal drives. I've been told by some people that a PSU failure won't affect data on the HDD, and by other people that it will. Same for a CPU or mobo meltdown. Does anyone on here have any real-world experience with this?

External drives: if a PSU fails or a CPU or mobo melts down, would this affect data on the external? Is it safe as long as I have it turned off? What if something happened to my computer while I was backing up to the external?

If optical media (like DVDs) degrades "quickly", how quick are we talking? Five..ten years? I'd like to store photos on a DVD. Should I use DVD-R or can I use DVD-RW?

What is bit rot?

 

[Erland]

From my understanding a failed PSU can cause damage to a HDD. How?

1. If the drive is writing to the HDD and power goes out the the file being written will or can be lost.
2. If it is in the middle of writing to the drive and power fails and the HDD malfunctions it can possibly cause the write head to land on the platter rather then on the landing spot causing damage to anything it touches possibly the whole drive.
3. If the PSU malfunctions it can possibly cause the drive to burn out or melt so to speak causing the HDD unfix-able damage without replacing parts in the HDD but, even doing that you might not get the data back but, it's a possibility if the platters are untouched and still in working order.

Same goes with a mobo meltdown.

I do not see this causing any issues on external drives esp if the external drive is powered by it's own AC adapter.

Bit rot I believe means that slowly bits on the DVD/CD slowly disappear so to speak. DVD/CD's that are burnt by a home burner and not professionally pressed has the ability to lose data over time e.g. bit rot or the bits on the disk are slowly rotting away.

My question is what about using:

RAID 5 + Raid 1 or RAID 0 + RAID 1.

I know that a fire will not stop the loss of the data. I'm not too worried about a virus taking over and screwing the data. Only thing I'm worried about would be drive loss due to the PSU issues I stated above. I thing with doing an occasional external drive and RAID 0+1 or RAID 5+1 should work fine. Now to go read that guide.

 

[taltamir]

i have read a case of a PSU delivering too much voltage and fluctuating... resulting in the HDD writing incorrect data... the drive was unharmed, and replacing the PSU fixed the problem, but data written while with the bad PSU had lots of random errors.
And then there are the 3 reasons erland listed. ZFS automatically detected a ton of write errors with the bad PSU.

I saw a mobo fry a HDD by shorting it out.

bit rot is the physical degradation of the media containing the data via natural entropy. the "rotting" so to speak of the data containing layers on the disk.

Disks last a varied amount of time depending on their make, burn quality, and random chance. Pressed disks are rated for about 10 years. But can die earlier (or last longer). I have a lot of pressed disks that no longer work. For example my warcraft 3 frozen throne disk... not a single scratch or blemish, it just developed errors over the years. and the game came out in July 3, 2002

As for my own burned disks.. 1/3 of my 600 CD Collection had errors or was completely unreadable within 3 years of being burned. others were fine 7 years later. they were all stored in a dark cases and climate controlled...

Oh... 100% of the disks I kept in the same case as another disk ... separated... (aka, if i took a case and i put TWO disks in one case, they were ruined)... they stuck together, and when I pulled them apart the top of layer of one tore and stuck to the bottom layer of the other... making areas where I could literally see through it as a patch of clear plastic. But I learned from it quickly and later stored one disk per case in my room (always air conditioned). If stored properly there will be no PHYSICAL damage like I described above, but they still failed 1/3 of the time after 3 years.

 

[Erland]

10 years that's it? that sucks... I have about 400 Music CD's and a majority of them I have had since about 94, so 15 years or so and they all play fine.

I know this because I have had my storage drive with all my music on it die 5/6 times in 2/3 years and I have to re-rip all my music every time this happens.

I also own about 400 DVD's and it would be a shame if in a couple years they all stopped working..

My Music CD's are all stored in Black music Binders by CDLogic and my DVD's are all in the cases in 2 DVD racks with doors on them.. all climate controlled or should I say AC controlled.

10 years sucks..

 

[taltamir]

rip them all to your HDD, and have backups of that.
I use FLAC to rip my music, its lossless.

CDex is my program of choice: http://cdexos.sourceforge.net/

 

[elconejito]

@ Luddite, I think a 3pt system is perfect.

I have this setup at my parents place (only one comp)
Internal Drive => USB external drive => online backup (JungleDisk)

I have this setup at my house (3comps, 2 laptops)
Internal drives => RAID5 fileserver => online backup (JungleDisk)

If something happens to my computer, I have an easy backup locally. This backup includes images of the system after install and all programs installed. Then the data is backed up. So restoring the image and the data doesn't take too long.

If something happens to the whole house, I still have my important data available off-site. I have to go thru the pain of reinstalling all apps and OS, but if I have to do that, obviously there was a disaster (fire, flood, etc) so that should be the least of my worries at that point.

 

[taltamir]

external usb backups protect against very little... fire, flood, lightening, theft, virus... almost everything hits both them and the internal drive at once. random failure doesn't, but RAID1 protects against that.

 

[RebateMonger]

Originally posted by: taltamir
external usb backups protect against very little...

That's a bit extreme. ANY kind of backup, including always-attached USB drives, would prevent a large percentage of data loss that people and businesses encounter. I'd hate to discourage this very easy-to-implement and inexpensive backup method.

No, an always-attached won't always prevent the other causes that you mentioned. It's hard to know how much data is lost in fires and theft, since these cases won't show up in computer repair shops. But it's pretty safe to say that hard drive failures in desktop computers and servers are more common than having the entire computer stolen or melted.

 

[Emulex]

external backups can easily be stored in safety deposit box (free with most checking accounts where you have a big mortgage).

if you live in tornado alley you may wish to move your backup to a farther location.

remember to have multiple backups so when you are wiping one backup or rsyncing or whatever you do not expose yourself to (fire/virus/act of god) by having the only backup in a state that is not accetpable for you.

 

[taltamir]

Originally posted by: RebateMonger

Originally posted by: taltamir
external usb backups protect against very little...

That's a bit extreme. ANY kind of backup, including always-attached USB drives, would prevent a large percentage of data loss that people and businesses encounter. I'd hate to discourage this very easy-to-implement and inexpensive backup method.

No, an always-attached won't always prevent the other causes that you mentioned. It's hard to know how much data is lost in fires and theft, since these cases won't show up in computer repair shops. But it's pretty safe to say that hard drive failures in desktop computers and servers are more common than having the entire computer stolen or melted.

which a RAID1 array protects against better than a USB drive.

 

[taltamir]

Originally posted by: Emulex
external backups can easily be stored in safety deposit box (free with most checking accounts where you have a big mortgage).

if you live in tornado alley you may wish to move your backup to a farther location.

remember to have multiple backups so when you are wiping one backup or rsyncing or whatever you do not expose yourself to (fire/virus/act of god) by having the only backup in a state that is not accetpable for you.

if you remove it physically from the location its not really an "external usb" anymore... its a rotated drive.
Anyways, fireboxes are rated for 300 degrees. in that temperature your PAPERS will be safe, but your DATA will be lost.

 

[RebateMonger]

Originally posted by: taltamir
which a RAID1 array protects against better than a USB drive.

I use RAID 1 on all my servers, but I don't expect it to protect data. Pull the power plug in the middle of a large file or database write and see how both RAID 1 copies are corrupted. Not to mention that RAID 1 won't keep an OS from being corrupted from a software install gone awry.

I'll take a backup, even a single USB backup, over RAID 1 any day, if I want to be SURE I can get my data and my server back running.

No, I don't advocate a SINGLE, always-attached, USB drive as an ideal backup. But it's WAY ahead of nothing at all, which is what most folks have. My recommendation for small businesses is always to have AT LEAST three backup drives: one kept attached for ongoing backups and the others kept offsite and swapped as appropriate.

Other useful backup tools include tapes (if you can afford them) and online backups (like Mozy and Carbonite). Each has a useful role. Online backups can be good if offsite backups aren't practical. But they shouldn't replace full system backups using hard drives or tapes.

 

[lopri]

I agree that a simple external drive on a regular backup is plenty enough for a regular folks like me. (Of course that doesn't stop me from experimenting with other stuff) I can tell you that outside corporate environments and AnandTech, I rarely meet a person who even does back up of any sort.

For the next level I'd consider Windows Home Server. It has saved my systems twice already.

 

[taltamir]

Originally posted by: RebateMonger

Originally posted by: taltamir

Originally posted by: RebateMonger

Originally posted by: taltamir
external usb backups protect against very little...

*snip*

No, an always-attached won't always prevent the other causes that you mentioned. It's hard to know how much data is lost in fires and theft, since these cases won't show up in computer repair shops. But it's pretty safe to say that hard drive failures in desktop computers and servers are more common than having the entire computer stolen or melted.

which a RAID1 array protects against better than a USB drive.

I use RAID 1 on all my servers, but I don't expect it to protect data. Pull the power plug in the middle of a large file or database write and see how both RAID 1 copies are corrupted.

What? RAID5 has a write hole, raid1 does NOT. anything that corrupts data on RAID1 will also corrupt a single non raided drive and unless found and fixed, all its backups. the ONLY solution to this is to use ZFS with redundancy (raid1, 5, 10)
Anyways look at the BOLDED PARTS. Your statement is irrelevant to what I said. I said raid1 protects against DRIVE FAILURES ONLY better than external USB.

This is because an external usb is gonna be on some sort of update schedule, all data from last update is gonna be missing. But RAID1 is always up to date with the duplication.

 

[taltamir]

No, I don't advocate a SINGLE, always-attached, USB drive as an ideal backup. But it's WAY ahead of nothing at all, which is what most folks have. My recommendation for small businesses is always to have AT LEAST three backup drives: one kept attached for ongoing backups and the others kept offsite and swapped as appropriate.

I agree, that is an excellent suggestion. Although, I would use a mounting slot with hot pluggable SATA Drives instead of USB, due to the massive speed difference. (also a HDD tray is smaller and lighter and you don't need to carry a power transformer)

http://www.newegg.com/Product/...sAutoSuggestion=hdd%20

oh, and the advantage of tapes was that they were really really CHEAP compared to an array of swappable HDD. Their disadvantage is linear operation and specialized software requirements.
If your tape drive is now more expensive, then it is not worth buying anymore