best free exchange server clone?

[n0cmonkey]

Originally posted by: Brazen
WOW, thanks guys! This thread has really been hoppin' since I've been away. I was surprised to see it still at the top of the OS forum.

Anyway. I'm really lookin for a win32 solution (and it's lookin like Mercury/32 will probably be what I dive into first...and hopefully last). However, if some of you linux zealots are feeling adventurous, you might check out Kolab Server, it supposedly includes all the IMAP and POP3 and global address books in to one, it's just a question though of how well it does it and how easy it is to work with. I may even check it out myself if I go with Linux. My personal preference is to try to move towards all WindowsNT. Yeah yeah, I can just imagine what you all have to say about that (not for this thread), but what can I say, I'm an MCP on my way to an MCSA and I like to stick with what I know. Like I said all I've really done with Linux is troubleshooting and administration on a machine that was set up like 7 years ago (granted it is still running!).

EDIT: Oh yeah, also I think you all may be a little confused about MAPI, I did some reading on Technet and it sounds like all MAPI really does is open your mail client when you send mail from or through a program like Word.

About the instant-retrival-of-messages-thingy, I kinda figured it was something more like just listening on a port instead of querying the mail server every minute. I really don't want to just set outlook to automatically check every minute, due to network traffic you know, if everyone did that you could imagine the sucking sound coming from our hubs. So does anyone know if an IMAP server notifies the clients? Oja, when you were using outlook connected to an IMAP server, did it do this?

One of the reasons for recommending Linux or other F/OSS solutions is the $0 budget you mentioned

 

[Nothinman]

Anyway. I'm really lookin for a win32 solution

I figured the OS licensing alone would be prohibitive since you have a budget of $0.

Oh yeah, also I think you all may be a little confused about MAPI, I did some reading on Technet and it sounds like all MAPI really does is open your mail client when you send mail from or through a program like Word.

I think you've fell victim to MS reusing acronyms for no good reason or MS having 1 acronym that has no real definition. If it's not MAPI, what is the protocol that Exchange uses to talk to Outlook clients, then?

About the instant-retrival-of-messages-thingy, I kinda figured it was something more like just listening on a port instead of querying the mail server every minute

It depends on the protocol, there doesn't have to be 2 ports used since sockets are 2 way devices, the client could do it's thing then just keep waiting to hear from the server during it's idle time. But since MS doesn't document the protocol well enough for anyone else to implement it, it's a moot point.

f everyone did that you could imagine the sucking sound coming from our hubs

It wouldn't suck so bad if you didn't have hubs.

So does anyone know if an IMAP server notifies the clients? Oja, when you were using outlook connected to an IMAP server, did it do this?

Won't happen. It's not in the IMAP protocol.

 

[Need4Speed]

Originally posted by: TheOmegaCode

Thanks! I was trying to remember an IMAP server othre than UW, but I couldnt think of one offhand. Totally forgot about Cyrus

I guess no one reads my posts I mentioned cyrus-imapd and courier-imap

MissMail is an open source MAPI-compliant mail server that's in the works that I stumbled across. Too bad they haven't released any files yet...

I ALWAYS read your posts

 

[n0cmonkey]

Originally posted by: Need4Speed

Originally posted by: TheOmegaCode

Thanks! I was trying to remember an IMAP server othre than UW, but I couldnt think of one offhand. Totally forgot about Cyrus

I guess no one reads my posts I mentioned cyrus-imapd and courier-imap

MissMail is an open source MAPI-compliant mail server that's in the works that I stumbled across. Too bad they haven't released any files yet...

I ALWAYS read your posts

Brown nose.

 

[Brazen]

Oh boy, well, it seems we've taken a bit of a sharp turn into ignorance.:disgust:

In response to the last couple of threads (mostly nothinman), let's see if I can get us back on track...

As far as OS licenses, I already have plenty (yeah yeah, that is probably "duh" to most of you).

Exchange uses NNTP, POP3, IMAP, LDAP, and HTTP for communicating with clients.

About not sucking if we didn't have hubs: we do use ethernet, which of course requires hubs (and is very fast, especially if you have 100 Mb switching hubs, which we do, not the topic of this thread though), so not having hubs would mean not having a network, which would suck even worse... I don't really understand that comment you made, but then what should I expect....

And about what is or isn't included in the IMAP protocol, I don't know, and judging by the quality of your previous thoughts, you don't either.

 

[Brazen]

Oh and thanks to TheOmegaCode for the heads up on MissMail. That looks like something to keep an eye on.

 

[Sunner]

When you say "a hub" people will generally interpret that as referring to just "a hub" not "a switching hub" since that would generally be called "a switch".

And yes, Exchange uses MAPI, it's not a protocol, but more of an (M)API, and it can do more than just allow you to use the Send To -> Mail recipient in Windows.

As for insulting the knowledge of the people of the people who are trying to help you, it might be a good idea to clean up your own yard first(Or however that saying goes in English).

 

[n0cmonkey]

Originally posted by: Brazen
Oh boy, well, it seems we've taken a bit of a sharp turn into ignorance.:disgust:

If you meant the brown nose type of comments, get over it. Just a little humor we like to show in these threads.

In response to the last couple of threads (mostly nothinman), let's see if I can get us back on track...

As far as OS licenses, I already have plenty (yeah yeah, that is probably "duh" to most of you).

Having worked in technical support for a while, I have come to learn that assuming things about the user asking questions is not the best course of action. Of course, I should have asked you what you already have (which would still be a nice question to have answered) instead of assuming you were starting from the beginning. So I know I made a bad assumption there, but it was definitely not a "duh" situation.

Exchange uses NNTP, POP3, IMAP, LDAP, and HTTP for communicating with clients.

And MAPI apparently. (according to Saltin anyhow, and I respect his knowledge of the Microsoft technologies)

About not sucking if we didn't have hubs: we do use ethernet, which of course requires hubs (and is very fast, especially if you have 100 Mb switching hubs, which we do, not the topic of this thread though), so not having hubs would mean not having a network, which would suck even worse...

Terminology is a strange beast in the computer world. One person says one thing knowing what he is talking about, and someone else reads it an entirely different way. The way I read your hub comment, and I am thinking Nothinman read it the same way, is that you are using hubs and not switches. From the above comment I am guessing you are afterall using switches and not hubs. Is this correct? Simple miscommunications like this can cause problems and flame wars that can otherwise be avoided.

I don't really understand that comment you made, but then what should I expect....

I am taking this as an insult towards Nothinman, which is undeserved. A miscommunication at most in my opinion. Nothinman knows his stuff. Dont doubt it.

And about what is or isn't included in the IMAP protocol, I don't know, and judging by the quality of your previous thoughts, you don't either.

IMAP is, thankfully, an Open Standard. Because of this, there is an RFC attatched to it. A quick perusal of RFC 1730 shows nothing of client notification upon reciept of email. If there is anyone involved in this thread that is actually boring enough () to have read this particular RFC, my money would be on Nothinman.

My questions for you are:
1. You have mentioned email and messaging, what other Exchange requirements are you looking for?
2. What do you have already? You mentioned an NT/2k/XP server license, which is a great start. What else do you have? Hardware? What hardware do you have at your disposal (rough estimates)?
3. How many users will be accessing this server?
4. You mentioned switched hubs, are those the same as switches? I am guessing they are non-managed switches, am I correct?

I think that is all for now. We will see if we can return this thread to the path you are looking for it to go.

 

[n0cmonkey]

Originally posted by: Sunner
When you say "a hub" people will generally interpret that as referring to just "a hub" not "a switching hub" since that would generally be called "a switch".

And yes, Exchange uses MAPI, it's not a protocol, but more of an (M)API, and it can do more than just allow you to use the Send To -> Mail recipient in Windows.

As for insulting the knowledge of the people of the people who are trying to help you, it might be a good idea to clean up your own yard first(Or however that saying goes in English).

Sounds right to me, but I prefer "wipe the sh*t off your own knees".

 

[Sunner]

Who are you and what have you done to n0c?

The real n0c would have started screaming RTFM and stuff like that a looong time ago, you're way too nice to people

 

[n0cmonkey]

Originally posted by: Sunner
Who are you and what have you done to n0c?

The real n0c would have started screaming RTFM and stuff like that a looong time ago, you're way too nice to people

I got accused of being a European ass. I made 2 nice posts today

 

[Sunner]

Originally posted by: n0cmonkey

Originally posted by: Sunner
Who are you and what have you done to n0c?

The real n0c would have started screaming RTFM and stuff like that a looong time ago, you're way too nice to people

I got accused of being a European ass. I made 2 nice posts today

Keep that up and you won't be welcome at the OpenBSD camp anymore

 

[n0cmonkey]

Originally posted by: Sunner

Originally posted by: n0cmonkey

Originally posted by: Sunner
Who are you and what have you done to n0c?

The real n0c would have started screaming RTFM and stuff like that a looong time ago, you're way too nice to people

I got accused of being a European ass. I made 2 nice posts today

Keep that up and you won't be welcome at the OpenBSD camp anymore

I dont post on misc@, just lurk.

 

[Need4Speed]

Originally posted by: n0cmonkey

Originally posted by: Need4Speed

Originally posted by: TheOmegaCode

Thanks! I was trying to remember an IMAP server othre than UW, but I couldnt think of one offhand. Totally forgot about Cyrus

I guess no one reads my posts I mentioned cyrus-imapd and courier-imap

MissMail is an open source MAPI-compliant mail server that's in the works that I stumbled across. Too bad they haven't released any files yet...

I ALWAYS read your posts

Brown nose.

heheheh....not so much brown nosing....but REALLY bored at work

 

[Nothinman]

I won't comment on the mis-communication that happened, it's been covered well enough already. But I will say most people in the networking field don't consider a hub and a switch the same thing.

As far as OS licenses, I already have plenty (yeah yeah, that is probably "duh" to most of you).

If you already have Windows and Exchange licenses what was the point of the original post? You never told us what you owned and what you didn't so we had to assume you owned nothing.

And about what is or isn't included in the IMAP protocol, I don't know, and judging by the quality of your previous thoughts, you don't either.

Of course I don't know anything about it, I only use it for my own mail at home and know that my client has to poll ever X minutes to see if there's new mail.

 

[Brazen]

hehe, kinda funny you would say that Nothin.....

Well, after my last post, I decided to go ahead and take a closer look at MercuryMail and installed it on a Win98SE machine I had close at hand (not the production machine). Good golly was that ever easy! So, I installed Mercury with ONLY the IMAP module. I went ahead and left off SMTP even, since I just wanted to test out IMAP. After a simple installation, I created two users, logged on to two computers, set up some quick outlook profiles, and voila, three-seconds after sending, an email magically pops into my inbox without me touching a thing. No send/recieve, no polling the server, fsh, yeah it's sweet. I'm happy now. IMAP is nice, I suggest you all embrace it as your own.

AND, a BIG THANKS to OJA with the quick thinking on MercuryMail right away in the beginning, AND and BIG pat on the back to the very same OJA who said more than once that an IMAP enabled email server would do just this.

Thanks to ALL of you who gave good information, you make it worthwhile wading through all the muck to get information around here (ok, a little venting) especially ACCURATE information if not outright dishonesty.

EDIT: Just to let you all know after a bit of testing I will be installing MercuryMail on a production server to replace our ancient Sendmail server. Yeah, I'm sorry I know a lot off you all embrace linux, but I will not be sorry to see that old thing go...

ENJOY THE HOLLIDAYS!!!

 

[ojai00]

wow...big thanks to me and i just recommended servers. i got lost in all this terminology and lost interest in reading what MAPI and IMAP does. it'll come back to bite me in the ass one day so i should set aside some time to read what the experts say

 

[Nothinman]

Well, after my last post, I decided to go ahead and take a closer look at MercuryMail and installed it on a Win98SE machine I had close at hand (not the production machine). Good golly was that ever easy! So, I installed Mercury with ONLY the IMAP module. I went ahead and left off SMTP even, since I just wanted to test out IMAP. After a simple installation, I created two users, logged on to two computers, set up some quick outlook profiles, and voila, three-seconds after sending, an email magically pops into my inbox without me touching a thing. No send/recieve, no polling the server, fsh, yeah it's sweet. I'm happy now. IMAP is nice, I suggest you all embrace it as your own.

Most likely the mail client you used periodically performs a NOOP so that the server doesn't close the connection for idle time and it was ~3s just by coincidence. I just did the same experiment with these results, I can even post the network capture I took to make sure that was the case (and to ensure that my client wasn't looking for new messages even though I told it not to).

Straight from the RFC: Since any command can return a status update as untagged data, the NOOP command can be used as a periodic poll for new messages or message status updates during a period of inactivity. The NOOP command can also be used to reset any inactivity autologout timer on the server.

Also, I'm not sure if it matters to you or not, but this only applies to the selected mailbox (every folder is considered a mailbox in IMAP), so if a message is filtered on the server side to another folder (I use procmail to do this for me, very convenient) you won't be notified about those messages until you select that folder.

 

[Brazen]

Just so you all know and are not steered in the wrong direction. The ~3s was not a coincidence, every message sent it popping up in ~3s. Of course, once the server gets in to heavy use, this will be longer just because of processing time. I monitored the hub these computers were attached to (yes, a managed switching hub, from 3COM), and there wasn't any sort of regular activity. Not every three seconds anyway, I only watched for a couple minutes. If I get really curious I might find out what ports it's using and see what it going on with that, but for now it works so that is good enough for me. AND, when a message gets sent to a mailbox that is not selected, the mailbox does reflect that there is new mail. I use Outlook, so I'm sure most of you understand, the name turns to bold and there is a number after it showing how many new emails, in this case (1). So again, yes a regular old IMAP server, the only free one I could find for win32 as a matter of fact, does in fact accomplish exactly what it was I set out to look for. Don't you just love happy endings?

 

[Brazen]

since you like RFCs so much, straight from RFC1730:

A client MUST be prepared to accept any server response at all times.
This includes server data that it may not have requested. Server
data SHOULD be recorded, so that the client can reference its
recorded copy rather than sending a command to the server to request
the data. In the case of certain server data, recording the data is
mandatory.

Apparently a quick perusal of the RFC DOES give an indication that an IMAP server can send send a notificitation of new mail, even if it is unrequested.

 

[Nothinman]

May I ask how you sent mail from one user to another without an SMTP server?

 

[Brazen]

since it is all local, you don't need SMTP. SMTP is a transport protocol, since the message is already on the server, it wouldn't need SMTP. Then of course, IMAP is used for communicating from the server to the client. Now, once I install it on the production server, it will need SMTP installed, but since my first trial run was just to test out the capabilities of IMAP, it was not needed and illiminated a variable.

 

[Nothinman]

since it is all local, you don't need SMTP. SMTP is a transport protocol, since the message is already on the server, it wouldn't need SMTP. Then of course, IMAP is used for communicating from the server to the client. Now, once I install it on the production server, it will need SMTP installed, but since my first trial run was just to test out the capabilities of IMAP, it was not needed and illiminated a variable.

But I think you just added another variable instead, because instead of reproducing a true mail path you eliminated a big part of it.

Also I believe I've figured out why Mercury can send the new mail notification as soon as the mail arrives, mainly it knows when the mail arrives. Most imap servers are seperate from the smtp server, so when the smtp server accepts mail and sends it to be delivered, whether to the normal mbox mail spool, another process like procmail, etc, the imap daemon has know way of knowing that all of that just happened without polling all the mailboxes mtime every few seconds, which on a box with a lot of users would be really bad. If you use the SMTP server part of Mercury it's all one executable, so it'll be able to notify you when new mail is dropped.

As for the unselected mailbox notification thing I still don't know, I didn't read the whole RFC but from the parts I did read it sounded like any commands and server messages processed were only valid for the selected mailbox, meaning it is impossible to get the new/unread count of messages from all the mailboxes without selecting each one and looking iteratively.

 

[Brazen]

I would suppose that it is not required that an IMAP server notifies the client, and maybe some don't, since by the specifications of the protocol, the client only has to be able to accept an unsolicited server response, I didn't come across anything that said the server is required to send them in any case. MercuryMail does. And it was very easy to setup, and looks very easy to modify and administer, which is a big plus. In regards to off-site mail accepted through SMTP, I'm sure it will be the case with MercuryMail, but I could see how it may not be the case with seperated IMAP and SMTP programs being used, in the case of your linux idea. I don't really know enough about such things, and at this point since I've found what I want, I probably won't take the time to look in to it. I would however be interested in hearing from someone who has used Kolab, as it does intergrate all this stuff together AND has LDAP and support for all the calendar and contacts and stuff that Exchange does.

EDIT: upon further inspection, I see that MercuryMail in fact has the option to enable or disable "broadcast of new mail messages (if supported)." I'm betting the "if supported" means if the mail client supports it, some may not, Outlook (Outlook 2002 to be exact to what I'm using) evidentally does support it, and it is evidentally optional for the mail server to support it.

 

[Nothinman]

I would suppose that it is not required that an IMAP server notifies the client, and maybe some don't,

I would assume most don't, since like I said, they're usually seperate from the MTA and don't have a reliable way to know when new mail arrives without crushing the system. Imagine a box with 1000 users logged in and each of their imapd processes (or threads, doesn't really matter) constantly calling stat() on their mailboxes to see if it was modified in the last few seconds. Since MercuryMail is an all-in-one package it shouldn't be a problem, but I'd still be interested in hearing if it does notify the clients of new mail after the SMTP portion is configured and being used.

EDIT: upon further inspection, I see that MercuryMail in fact has the option to enable or disable "broadcast of new mail messages (if supported)." I'm betting the "if supported" means if the mail client supports it, some may not, Outlook (Outlook 2002 to be exact to what I'm using) evidentally does support it, and it is evidentally optional for the mail server to support it.

I saw that option too, but after reading the help it looks like it's an option to send a NetWare (or maybe SMB) popup message to the user when they have new mail. And any compliant IMAP client would support what you're takling about, because it's in the RFC that they have to be able to "accept any server response at all times".