Best Entry-level rig using "modern" parts?

[scannall]

The i5-8400 has higher IPC then the Ryzen R5 does. Good gods, don't you read the benchmarks?

What he is getting at, is that it doesn't matter on a 1080 60hz monitor. The i5 doesn't really fit into the entry level gaming build, as it costs more with a more expensive motherboard.

 

[frozentundra123456]

Explain how a budget user benefits from the speed of the i5 in gaming on a 1080p/60hz screen.

Explain why Ryzen is a better chip than the 8400 for a *gaming* build. You yourself admit it is slower than the 8400, or at least in your line of reasoning they are both "good enough". So tell me this magic, secret property that makes Ryzen such an obvious choice that it is "not really a contest" between the two chips.

 

[epsilon84]

Explain how a budget user benefits from the speed of the i5 in gaming on a 1080p/60hz screen.

Better fps (especially min fps) in the latest titles would probably be the biggest benefit. For example, in AC:O

 

[whm1974]

Well, for a sub $700 entry level gaming build, this would work fine.

Parts Picker

well I changed scannall build to this, and manage to shave ~$200 off the price.
https://pcpartpicker.com/list/hpNyvV

 

[epsilon84]

What he is getting at, is that it doesn't matter on a 1080 60hz monitor. The i5 doesn't really fit into the entry level gaming build, as it costs more with a more expensive motherboard.

With that reasoning, any budget gamer running a 1080P/60Hz panel may as well run a Pentium G4560 with a cheap mobo for just over $100. Throw in 8GB DDR4-2400 and you're looking at a whole platform that costs around as much as a Ryzen 1600 on its own.

We are talking entry level here right? Where 'good enough' rules. The G4560 is fast enough to push 60fps on the vast majority of games. The GPU is generally the more problematic component in a budget gaming build because you can't really get a 'good enough' ie. consistent 60fps capable @ 1080P. class GPU for under $100.

A lot of compromises have to be made building on a low end budget using 'modern' parts as stipulated by Larry. To be frank, the best bang for buck is in used hardware, but I'm aware thats not for everyone.

 

[whm1974]

With that reasoning, any budget gamer running a 1080P/60Hz panel may as well run a Pentium G4560 with a cheap mobo for just over $100. Throw in 8GB DDR4-2400 and you're looking at a whole platform that costs around as much as a Ryzen 1600 on its own.

We are talking entry level here right? Where 'good enough' rules. The G4560 is fast enough to push 60fps on the vast majority of games. The GPU is generally the more problematic component in a budget gaming build because you can't really get a 'good enough' ie. consistent 60fps capable @ 1080P. class GPU for under $100.

A lot of compromises have to be made building on a low end budget using 'modern' parts as stipulated by Larry. To be frank, the best bang for buck is in used hardware, but I'm aware thats not for everyone.

How about this build, it's only ~$450.
https://pcpartpicker.com/list/tRrcWX

 

[VirtualLarry]

Better fps (especially min fps) in the latest titles would probably be the biggest benefit. For example, in AC:O

But... how many "budget" rigs do you know of, with a 1080ti or Vega64? Sure, in absolute terms, the Coffee Lake may be faster, but I think that tential's point is, that given a budget rig, which is more likely than not going to be GPU-limited, due to using a lower-than-ultimate-top-tier video card, that Coffee Lake's advantages largely evaporate, as a Ryzen R5 1600 is perfectly capable of 1080P/60 gameplay. (Limited to 60FPS, both due to GPU budget, as well as monitor budget.)

I tend to agree with him, at least in terms of real-world results.

 

[scannall]

But... how many "budget" rigs do you know of, with a 1080ti or Vega64? Sure, in absolute terms, the Coffee Lake may be faster, but I think that tential's point is, that given a budget rig, which is more likely than not going to be GPU-limited, due to using a lower-than-ultimate-top-tier video card, that Coffee Lake's advantages largely evaporate, as a Ryzen R5 1600 is perfectly capable of 1080P/60 gameplay. (Limited to 60FPS, both due to GPU budget, as well as monitor budget.)

I tend to agree with him, at least in terms of real-world results.

Hey Larry, I appreciate this thread. Perhaps though, a virtual build off would be a good way to express it. Set a $$ amount total limit. Not including Windows, monitor, keyboard and mouse. See what different people idea of what should be in a budget build, if you have a hard cap on $$$.

 

[epsilon84]

But... how many "budget" rigs do you know of, with a 1080ti or Vega64? Sure, in absolute terms, the Coffee Lake may be faster, but I think that tential's point is, that given a budget rig, which is more likely than not going to be GPU-limited, due to using a lower-than-ultimate-top-tier video card, that Coffee Lake's advantages largely evaporate, as a Ryzen R5 1600 is perfectly capable of 1080P/60 gameplay. (Limited to 60FPS, both due to GPU budget, as well as monitor budget.)

I tend to agree with him, at least in terms of real-world results.

Point taken, but how many gamers do you know that game at ultra settings with max draw distance etc?

PC gaming is all about options and gamers will adjust graphical settings based on their GPU. For example, you will probably will run a mix of medium or high settings on a GTX 1060 class card to achieve consistent 60fps rather than maxing out every setting on ultra, which means the CPU would still be a factor.

Honestly though almost any modern CPU is 'good enough' for 60fps gaming, you don't need a Ryzen 5 class CPU for that, as I said in a previous post even a G4560 is sufficient for 60fps, so where do you draw the line, how low is 'too low' on the CPU side of a gaming machine?

 

[frozentundra123456]

But... how many "budget" rigs do you know of, with a 1080ti or Vega64? Sure, in absolute terms, the Coffee Lake may be faster, but I think that tential's point is, that given a budget rig, which is more likely than not going to be GPU-limited, due to using a lower-than-ultimate-top-tier video card, that Coffee Lake's advantages largely evaporate, as a Ryzen R5 1600 is perfectly capable of 1080P/60 gameplay. (Limited to 60FPS, both due to GPU budget, as well as monitor budget.)

I tend to agree with him, at least in terms of real-world results.

You (and others) are talking like there is some huge price disparity here. In the graph linked by Epsilon, the *1600X* is getting periously close to the magic 60fps limit. And that is with, as you say, a top of the line gpu. Using a slower gpu will certainly not make it faster. The slower clocked 1600 would be even worse. Yes, you can overlcock it, but everyone might not want to do that, and the results are not guaranteed. As for prices, at least on NewEgg, the 8400 and 1600X are listed (last time I checked) at the same price, so the only difference is perhaps 50.00 for the motherboard, a cost which will be eliminated soon when cheaper motherboards are available.

 

[VirtualLarry]

Revisiting this thread in a few months when lower-cost 300-series Intel chipset mobos should prove elucidating.

I look forward to building more entry-level i3-8100 rigs for people, with B360 boards and cheaper DDR4-2400 RAM (the fastest that the combination of i3-8100 (2400) and B360 chipset (no DRAM OCing) support.

Assuming that slower DDR4 might drop in price slightly, these components could replace the G4560 in ultra-budget builds. Certainly enough for the non-gaming crowd. Maybe investigate Intel SRT / Optane caching (which, being an i3 rather than Pentium, should support).

Here's a build at Newegg. I chose a 512GB Adata M.2 PCI-E NVMe SSD, over the Optane route, after reading the reviews on Optane. I also chose a 550 Seasonic Focus+ Platinum PSU for $100, because modular and 10-year warranty, as well as a current $20 rebate making it $80.

(wishlist deleted)

I think that this is a really kick-butt rig for ~$650 AR, although it does not have a dGPU. Add a GTX1070 ITX "shorty" card, for $380-400, and you'll be rocking for gaming too.

Case was just a cheap, but windowed and 2x USB3.0 / 2x USB2.0 front-panel ports.

 

[AMDisTheBEST]

entry level? Get ryzen or pentium.

 

[VirtualLarry]

entry level? Get ryzen or pentium.

But why spend $90 on a Pentium Gold CPU, when you can spend ~$120 on a Coffee Lake 8th-Gen i3 CPU, and get a true quad-core?

And Ryzen at the low end is out, because need a dGPU for basic video output and video decoding. Not even a contender. (Unless AMD does a promotion to throw in a free RX 550 (maybe a further cut-down, RX 540, with 384 or 256 shaders?) card with purchase of a Ryzen CPU.

 

[AMDisTheBEST]

But why spend $90 on a Pentium Gold CPU, when you can spend ~$120 on a Coffee Lake 8th-Gen i3 CPU, and get a true quad-core?

And Ryzen at the low end is out, because need a dGPU for basic video output and video decoding. Not even a contender. (Unless AMD does a promotion to throw in a free RX 550 (maybe a further cut-down, RX 540, with 384 or 256 shaders?) card with purchase of a Ryzen CPU.

when has pentium hit $90??? threaded ryzen with two extra cores is still a step up.

 

[VirtualLarry]

when has pentium hit $90??? threaded ryzen with two extra cores is still a step up.

Street price for a G4560 is $90-100. Intel re-branded it as "Pentium Gold G4560", and MSRP is like $86.

And what do you mean by "threaded Ryzen"? The cheapest Ryzen 5 that supports SMT is the 1400, which is like $150. Coffee Lake i3-8100 is cheaper, way cheaper if you include the fact that you need a dGPU for Ryzen.

 

[bigboxes]

Street price for a G4560 is $90-100. Intel re-branded it as "Pentium Gold G4560", and MSRP is like $86.

And what do you mean by "threaded Ryzen"? The cheapest Ryzen 5 that supports SMT is the 1400, which is like $150. Coffee Lake i3-8100 is cheaper, way cheaper if you include the fact that you need a dGPU for Ryzen.

I got a G4400 for $50. That and an MSI board cost me around $100 total. I believe I got a couple of sata3 controller cards as well. Rock solid file server on the cheap.

 

[epsilon84]

Revisiting this thread in a few months when lower-cost 300-series Intel chipset mobos should prove elucidating.

I look forward to building more entry-level i3-8100 rigs for people, with B360 boards and cheaper DDR4-2400 RAM (the fastest that the combination of i3-8100 (2400) and B360 chipset (no DRAM OCing) support.

Assuming that slower DDR4 might drop in price slightly, these components could replace the G4560 in ultra-budget builds. Certainly enough for the non-gaming crowd. Maybe investigate Intel SRT / Optane caching (which, being an i3 rather than Pentium, should support).

Here's a build at Newegg. I chose a 512GB Adata M.2 PCI-E NVMe SSD, over the Optane route, after reading the reviews on Optane. I also chose a 550 Seasonic Focus+ Platinum PSU for $100, because modular and 10-year warranty, as well as a current $20 rebate making it $80.

https://secure.newegg.com/Wishlist/MyWishlistDetail?ID=3844298

I think that this is a really kick-butt rig for ~$650 AR, although it does not have a dGPU. Add a GTX1070 ITX "shorty" card, for $380-400, and you'll be rocking for gaming too.

Case was just a cheap, but windowed and 2x USB3.0 / 2x USB2.0 front-panel ports.

I can see your point about motherboards, but cheaper Z370 motherboards are around the $100 mark these days, is it really worth waiting 3 months just to save $30 on a build? Not to mention that Z370 motherboards has the option to utilise the K series CPUs in future upgrades. That for me alone is worth a $30 premium. Of course, if $30 makes or breaks the bank for you... well, maybe you should consider low end Ryzens. Of course you need a dGPU for one, as you mentioned.

You said it yourself the rig cost is $650, so obviously you aren't cheaping out on the other components. But you make it sound like $30 for a better motherboard is a deal breaker, when $30 is about 5% of the total cost of your proposed system. You could easily shave $30 off that system with slight tweaks to the configuration, or simply pay $680 instead of $650. My point is, in the context of a system build, $30 really isn't much, unless you are going absolutely super low end, bottom of the barrel Celeron level type systems.

 

[VirtualLarry]

I got a G4400 for $50. That and an MSI board cost me around $100 total. I believe I got a couple of sata3 controller cards as well. Rock solid file server on the cheap.

That might be fine for a file-server, but I wouldn't go lower than a Kaby Lake Pentium w/HT for a client box these days, that might have an A/V running, and would want to watch VP9 videos on YouTube, possibly at 4K.

 

[VirtualLarry]

You said it yourself the rig cost is $650, so obviously you aren't cheaping out on the other components. But you make it sound like $30 for a better motherboard is a deal breaker, when $30 is about 5% of the total cost of your proposed system. You could easily shave $30 off that system with slight tweaks to the configuration, or simply pay $680 instead of $650. My point is, in the context of a system build, $30 really isn't much, unless you are going absolutely super low end, bottom of the barrel Celeron level type systems.

That example build, is what I would build *today*, for someone wanted a CFL entry-level quad-core build, without skimping on components. Call it a "deluxe budget build". It wasn't intended to be a "wait two months for new chipsets" build. Only that I wanted to re-visit this thread when they were out, and come up with some cheaper "economy budget builds", and compare.

 

[bigboxes]

That might be fine for a file-server, but I wouldn't go lower than a Kaby Lake Pentium w/HT for a client box these days, that might have an A/V running, and would want to watch VP9 videos on YouTube, possibly at 4K.

I hear ya. Just saying that those cheap Pentiums have a use (good one) for me. My rig in my sig, my HTPC (i7 920/GTX 950) and my wife's rig (7850K Kaveri) can handle any of these tasks

 

[VirtualLarry]

I hear ya. Just saying that those cheap Pentiums have a use (good one) for me.

BCLK OC on a locked Skylake Pentium is fun too. I did that for a while, that was my plan with my Skylake rigs.

 

[bigboxes]

BCLK OC on a locked Skylake Pentium is fun too. I did that for a while, that was my plan with my Skylake rigs.

You always got a plan. I like that in you.

 

[VirtualLarry]

Well, sorry, it seems like I've never been able to come up with a Newegg wishlist that was actually public.

Maybe this will work?
https://secure.newegg.com/Wishlist/SharedWishlistDetail?ID=qRr3Rz5eUac=

 

[bigboxes]

Well, sorry, it seems like I've never been able to come up with a Newegg wishlist that was actually public.

Maybe this will work?
https://secure.newegg.com/Wishlist/SharedWishlistDetail?ID=qRr3Rz5eUac=

Those memory prices are through the roof.

 

[VirtualLarry]

Yes, RAM is crazy-expensive right now. I'm kicking myself for not investing more money into RAM back when I was able to get a 32GB kit of DDR4-2133 for $110.

Should have purchased enough kits of that to max out my RAM on all of my rigs.