Best Bang-4-Buck PERFORMANCE - Final O/C'ing results

[apoppin]

Originally posted by: Markfw900
OK, if you go cheap with the Intel, go $87 with the AMD system for the motherboard (chipset actually rates faster SIS 755-A), and it still wins(bang/buck),

$87 + $227= $314 (AMD, faster stock) vs $179(reduced monday)+$127 = $306 Intel.

Other parts the same no matter what you do. Faster at stock.

NOW What do you do ???????

huh?

Which MB are you referring to?

Quit saying "AMD, faster stock"; both systems WILL be O/C'd.


I am STILL trying to decide; but I really do appreciate all the input - I am giving up old desktop on Saturday and NEED a replacement next week . . . it'll be SOON (and it's something I have to "live" with for quite awhile WITHOUT buyer's remorse).

 

[apoppin]

Originally posted by: Markfw900
First, did you notice my edits ???

Second, AGAIN, WHICHEVER WAY YOU GO, BETTER RAM IS ALLWAYS BETTER FOR OCING.

I believe so; I am trying to keep up my own edits . . .

OK, the Kingston is OUT and Buffalo PC3700 is IN for $19 more - whichever system . . . I just haven't heard ANYthing about "buffalo" (I don't want to get buffaloed).

Noow WHICH SIS-based MB are you referring to for the A-64? And how does it compare with the Asus KV8 deluxe?

I am not going cheap ANYwhere with the Intel system . . . (the MB, case and RAM are all "minumum-compromise" for good O/C'ing perf) . . .

 

[mechBgon]

You probably shouldn't listen to me, I'm more than a little biased Now I just need the rest of the goodies to go with that thing.

 

[Markfw]

This motherboard, the same one NFS4 has

And I keep saying stock, since whatever OC you get will probably be similar depending on the RAM you choose. So until the actual results of the OC are in, it is hard to say. I just think with memory being the same, that the end result OC (whatever is is either way) would end up with the AMD winning in games. For example, if you get 3.4 with the $94 memory on the Intel (don't know the chances, probably OK), You only need to get to 210-215 HTT with the A64 to beat it I think, as you will probably get 218 or so, maybe higher.

Way too many variables here for a real guaranteed call, so you make the call. I just think the Athlon64 is the better bang for the buck (why do you think I bought it ?)

Edit: and I think mechbgon is saying biased to the A64, as I think that is his HSF for an A64. Mech, please correct me if I am wrong!!!

OK, and obviously I like the K8V better than the 755-A ECS board. Read the reviews on both, and decide. I got mine before the 755-A came out, but it rated better than the K8V, but the OC'abilty ???? Don't know. Haven't read enough since to decide. They both appear great and stable, and have different features. You need to read up on them for yourself, there are differences.

Edit: OK, I can't resist. A couple more things.. I am SOOO happy that the Athlon64 comes with an idiot-proof HSF and they do run cool, I think cooler than the P4, and definitely cooler than the Prescott from what I have read.

 

[apoppin]

Originally posted by: Markfw900
This motherboard, the same one NFS4 has

And I keep saying stock, since whatever OC you get will probably be similar depending on the RAM you choose. So until the actual results of the OC are in, it is hard to say. I just think with memory being the same, that the end result OC (whatever is is either way) would end up with the AMD winning in games. For example, if you get 3.4 with the $94 memory on the Intel (don't know the chances, probably OK), You only need to get to 210-215 HTT with the A64 to beat it I think, as you will probably get 218 or so, maybe higher.

Way too many variables here for a real guaranteed call, so you make the call. I just think the Athlon64 is the better bang for the buck (why do you think I bought it ?)

Edit: and I think mechbgon is saying biased to the A64, as I think that is his HSF for an A64. Mech, please correct me if I am wrong!!!

I believe he is saying his is biased toward the A-64 system (see I DO read your edits).

You haven't addressed the differences between the two MBs (yours' and NSF4's).

Money really does make a difference right now; or else I wouldn't be so persistent . . . .

It's not a bad situation to be in - I could still be stuck with my Tualatin Celeron @1.5Ghz and PC-133.





Again, thanks for all your help . . . ultimately i may toss a coin . . .

. . . probably not

EDIT: I see your MB edit - thanx

 

[mechBgon]

Yeah, that's an AMD64 cooler from Alpha It is a little indulgent, since the A64 is not much of a hot-running chip to start with, and there are some other nice heatsinks out there too. It looked purty, and I fell for it At least it should be useful for quite some time to come.

 

[Markfw]

OK, only found one decent review so far, but crap, my ASUS board is lacking. Here is a quote about the 755-A :

SiS has decided to appeal to the overclocking community: its PDF product presentations laud the 10% overclocking potential offered by the SiS 755. Another useful feature is the ability to run the PCI and AGP busses independently of the HyperTransport channel - i.e., at 33 MHz and 66 MHz, respectively. That means that you can increase the HyperTransport clock without overclocking the Southbridge dependent components.

Damn !!!! May have to try that one. No gigbit ethernet on the 755-A (who cares) and no frewire (1394) unless I missed it, but I don't use that anyway. The OC potential seems better on the $87 755-a !!!!!!

 

[apoppin]

Ok, it's narrowed to these two . . . one of which I will order for next weekend (unless I get more budget/perf options):

Intel P-4
Buffalo Technology 184 Pin 512MB DDR PC-3700 w/ Micron Module - OEM - $94
Intel Pentium 4/ 2.8C GHz 800MHz FSB, 512K Cache, Hyper Threading - $199.00
SLK3700AMB - Antec 350w/ case - $60
Asus "P4P800 Deluxe" -RETAIL - $127
for a total of $480 (minus the likely $20 Intel price drop on Monday) . . .


A-64 system
ECS SiS 755 Chipset Motherboard for AMD Socket 754 CPU, Model "755-A" -RETAIL - $87.00
AMD Athlon 64 3000+, 512KB L2 Cache 64-bit Processor - Retail - $227
Buffalo Technology 184 Pin 512MB DDR PC-3700 w/ Micron Module - OEM - $94
ANTEC Solution Series Case with 350W Power Supply, Model "SLK3700AMB" - $60
Total $468

LAST question: is 350w sufficient for the A64?

If SO . . . and since i AM a gamer, I guess I am NOW leaning toward the AMD system . . . thanks!

EDIT: I will go with the SIS MB; no worries about Firewire, I already have PCI card . . .

 

[Markfw]

I think an Antec 350 watt should be fine for the A64. Somebody correct me if I am wrong.

And at the same rated (3000+ vs 3.0c) speed FOR A GAMER the A64 will win, I don't think anybody will argue that one, not even Duvie.

Going to bed apoppin, good luck, I will followup this thread tomorrow.... And thanks mech for your input. I wouldn't have spent this much time normally, but apoppin is an old regular, and I am bored tonight.

 

[mechBgon]

I don't know if it matters to you guys, but the ECS 755-A is in bad odor at the moment because it's holding the memory back to 333MHz/PC2700. Ask NFS4 if he's happy about that. They've got an A2 revision coming out, but this looks to be a board that came outta the oven only partly baked. News from AT front page

I'd get a basic ~$100 nForce 150 board before I'd saddle myself with substandard memory performance. I'm still trying to hold out for the nForce3 250Gb chipset though. Hmm, but they will be available in Socket754... could buy CPU now with basic mobo, then upgrade....

/fevered ranting & mumbling

 

[JBT]

I don't get why you are going with the Buffalo PC3700 Micron memory? I have never heard of anyone use that it also is CAS 3 stock.
Why not look at this Mushkin PC3500 Level I 2-3-3 stuff?

 

[apoppin]

Originally posted by: Markfw900
I think an Antec 350 watt should be fine for the A64. Somebody correct me if I am wrong.

And at the same rated (3000+ vs 3.0c) speed FOR A GAMER the A64 will win, I don't think anybody will argue that one, not even Duvie.

Duvie might . . . in a PM.

The PS is my last concern . . . I will have a 9800 Radeon, 1GB RAM, CD-RW, DVD drive, 2 HDs and the usual 3 or 4 PCI cards . . .

Since both the P4 and the A64 3000+ should each get a good O/C, either system should be fine for awhile . . .


thanks for the tips AND geting my system WELL-UNDER $600!!!

 

[Markfw]

Originally posted by: mechBgon
I don't know if it matters to you guys, but the ECS 755-A is in bad odor at the moment because it's holding the memory back to 333MHz/PC2700. Ask NFS4 if he's happy about that. They've got an A2 revision coming out, but this looks to be a board that came outta the oven only partly baked. News from AT front page

I'd get a basic ~$100 nForce 150 board before I'd saddle myself with substandard memory performance. I'm still trying to hold out for the nForce3 250Gb chipset though. Hmm, but they will be available in Socket754... could buy CPU now with basic mobo, then upgrade....

/fevered ranting & mumbling

OK, one more update. This is the article I was reading :

Tomshardware

Yes, I know Toms svcks sometimes. Just a little input. Have to sleep......................

 

[apoppin]

Originally posted by: JBT
I don't get why you are going with the Buffalo PC3700 Micron memory? I have never heard of anyone use that it also is CAS 3 stock.
Why not look at this Mushkin PC3500 Level I 2-3-3 stuff?

WHY???

I kept asking about Buffalo (several times) . . . you were the first with a relatively cheap alternative . . . I could definitely spend the xtra $11 for better memory!

EDIT: Now the SIS may be OUT!

From THG:

The system was unfairly clocked at 2.010 MHz, which should give it a slight edge over the competition. However, not even this extra boost was enough to make the board shine: VIA's K8T800 beat it out in several disciplines nonetheless.

oops 3rd edit:and from AT news

Latest Articles & News
ECS pulls a fast one...changes mem spec to DDR333 on website for 755-A Athlon 64 board


News | Brandon Hill on Jan 28th, 2004 8:01 PM from Email



After touting that its SiS755 based 755-A 1.0a motherboard supported DDR400, DDR333, DDR266 and DDR200 memory speeds, ECS has pulled back. I found the problem out first hand and posted a thread here at OCworkbench which got quite a bit of attention. Our own Wesley Fink ran into the problem and posted about it in this thread:

We received the 755A several weeks ago and there is a problem with the memory controller running DDR400 at DDR333. The board is also very limited on tweak adjustments. We have been working with ECS to fix these issues and they have just released the 755-A2 which they say corrects these problems. We supposedly have an A2 on the way. We also mentioned the A2 revision in our CES coverage.

THIS is the reason, I have chosen Intel in the past.



THANKS for bring this up!

Last EDIT: I am heading to bed - I'll bring this up again in the morning and i will also hpefully be a little clearer.

 

[microAmp]

Originally posted by: mechBgon
I don't know if it matters to you guys, but the ECS 755-A is in bad odor at the moment because it's holding the memory back to 333MHz/PC2700. Ask NFS4 if he's happy about that. They've got an A2 revision coming out, but this looks to be a board that came outta the oven only partly baked. News from AT front page

I'd get a basic ~$100 nForce 150 board before I'd saddle myself with substandard memory performance. I'm still trying to hold out for the nForce3 250Gb chipset though. Hmm, but they will be available in Socket754... could buy CPU now with basic mobo, then upgrade....

/fevered ranting & mumbling

I'll throw my 2 cents in about the ECS 755-A board, I wouldn't get it, inf act I returned mine, there is also another member here who did the same thing and returned it. With the latest BIOS the memory would run at 166 MHz even though you set it to 200 MHz. Over at AMDMB forums someone flashed the BIOS using the 755-A2 BIOS and was able to get 200 MHz but last I saw the thread it wasn't stable for him/her/it/thing.

I would recommend the VIA chipset over the nForce 150, it performs a little bit better but you trade it off for no AGP/PCI lock on the VIA boards and nForce boards have the lock.

 

[mechBgon]

Just to make this even more difficult, Wesley Fink says in the comments about that news bit:

Our review of the 755-A2 revision is complete and should be posted by tomorrow. The DDR400 problem is fixed on Revision A2 and the performance is much more in line with what I found in the SiS 755 Reference Board review. In fact for a value board, I think you will be peasantly surprised at the performance of the 755-A2. It even overclocks very well.

:Q

/me spreads pins & needles evenly across chair and sits on them

 

[mrweirdo]

I would stay clear of ECS I have A KS75A and the thing was a terible bitch to get to run stable enough so i can use it without crashes because of all the problems it had. 3rd party bios, soldering, chipset heatsink replacement, etc wich took countless hours of my time I have seen other ECS boards from that time frame up untill now in systems and about 80% have some kind of stability issue with them. They seem to be a terible mobo brand then and it would seem not much has changed.

 

[Bovinicus]

I suggest the Athlon 64 over the Pentium 4 for a few reasons:

One, you may have a useable upgrade path if you go with the 3000+. AMD has said they will continue making socket 754 processors as long as their customer's demand such a thing. However, socket 478 processors are going to stop at 3.4GHz.

Two, the Athlon 3000+ will perform better than the 3.2GHz P4 in many games and general usage applications. Also, you should be able to overclock by 100-200MHz. Since the Athlon 64 scales very well with clockspeed, you should see some significant gains from an overclock of that level. It is always good to go with whichever CPU is clocked higher by default, if their estimated OC performance is similar. Why? Because overclocking is luck of the draw; the difference between a P4 system that overclocks poorly and an Athlon 64 system that overclocks well will be less than the difference between a P4 system that overclocks well and an Athlon 64 system that overclocks poorly.

Three, if you plan on keeping this system for a decent length of time, then 64-bit software support may become more prevalent. This will definitely give the Athlon 64 a nice boost in performance. As well, because of the infancy of Athlon 64 based system, performance should improve in other areas. Improved chipset drivers, motherboard BIOSes, and other software support should all help the performance of the Athlon 64 platform over time. The Pentium 4 is pretty mature, so I expect performance increases to be less noticeable.

Four, if you go with the P4 system, you will either have to buy 2x256MB sticks of memory, or you will have to go with a single channel setup. So, you either have to reduce the upgradability of your system, or you have to have temporarily reduced performance.

Here is the build I have put together:

Case: Antec SLK3700AMB ($60)
Mobo: Gigabyte GA-K8VT800 ($100)
CPU: AMD Athlon 64 3000+ Retail ($227)
Memory: Buffalo PC3700 512MB Winbond Module ($102)

Total (Shipped to MD): $504

Beyond the system setups you and the other posters have mentioned, you should also consider an Athlon XP system. You could get a 2500+ and attempt to overclock it to 3200+ levels. A lot of people have had success going this route. You could save a lot of money on the CPU and motherboard. You could take that money and put it towards a faster video card. That Radeon 8500 is going to limit the performance of your system. I know, you probably plan on getting a better video card later, but I just thought I would throw in this suggestion for whatever it is worth.

 

[Viper96720]

I think 350W should be ok. Using 330W Truepower with
A64 3000
512MB ram
36gb raptor and 80gb wd
dvd
cd-rw
sb audigy
9500 Pro
hpna card

 

[RaNDoMMAI]

U raelly never need more then 350

i know penty of ppl who overclocking using a 300WPSU

Here is a thread that has a bunch of high end rigs running with a 300W PSU stable

300W rig thread

and here is a very good thread explaining PSU ratings
PSU rating

Hoped i helped, i am still learning
~RaNDoM

 

[JBT]

Originally posted by: Bovinicus
Memory: Buffalo PC3700 512MB Winbond Module ($102)

Newegg barely if ever has those in stock they have 2 left right now... They are BH-5 chips that should perform VERY well. It has been months since I have seen those in great quanitities and I recommend grabbing those ASAP if you can. If you can't the Mushkin Level I I show you should be good too.

 

[Markfw]

I like Bovinicus answer. I take back the 755-A recommendation.

 

[apoppin]

Originally posted by: Markfw900
I like Bovinicus answer. I take back the 755-A recommendation.

So, we're agreed that for an A-64 Mobo, Gigabyte GA-K8VT800 ($100) is the best bang for the buck.

However, does it have an AGP/PCI lock? And how important is that?

As to RAM, it DOES appear the Buffalo is a good O/C'er (or just about any brand-name PC3500/3700 on sale).

Finally, we're agreed the 350w PS is fine.

I am still not too sure the P4 route is inferior as far as upgrading goes . . . even though Socket 478 ENDS with 3.4Ghz, those final steppings of the P4 will no doubt finally top out O/C'd around 4Ghz . . . with AMD we just don't know . . . I wouldn't count on NOT replacing the MB . . .

As to needing TWO ram modules to feed the hungry P4, no problem as I don't mind putting up with "slow" for about a month until I get the second one . . . it'll still be a LOT faster than my current ancient setup (and I WILL have 1GB RAM for EITHER A-64 or P4).

Reassure me.


What's the difference between the Buffalo Ram with Winbond and the one with Micron module? They are both Cas3 and the price/perf sems similar

 

[RussianSensation]

If you are concerned with gaming performance as your top priority, then the Athlon 64 3000+ not overclocked will be similar in performance to a 3.4ghz p4. However if you get it to 2.2ghz, then it might be slightly faster, but it all depends on the game. You shouldn't worry too much about overclocking on a via chipset that does not have AGP/PCI lock, since you are probably going to want to aim at 10x220 for the 3200+ speeds. The ECS 755-A revision is a bad choice because it has a problem with supporting 400mhz DDR memory, that is why they have come out with ECS 755-A2 to correct the problem. I think your gigabyte motherboard should suffice. The winbond chips are known to provide very good overclocks, but if this memory is already clocked at 3700, that means it can easily run at ~233mhz and you will probably never get your 3000+ to that speed anyways. So it's more of a long-term investment in the future in case when you upgrade to another cpu and you can take it to higher than 220. Personally I run 2.6@3.2ghz with my TurboLink 350Watt power supply which is rated horribly hhehe...but the system runs fine. I think a good 350 power supply by Antec should be sufficient.

 

[apoppin]

I am really surprised to NOT hear from Intel supporters . . . there used to be quite a vocal group here . . .

Is the A-64 really better bang-for-the-buck even over a moderately O/C'd P4 system? (gaming)
WOW . . . I'm speechless . . . I was going for the P4 before this thread.

No problem . . . I am ordering something this coming week. . . . looks like A-64
(no Athlon XP, please)



EDIT: Thanks for all your help . . . there is a lot of valuable info summarized in this thread.

I am heading to work (to finish paying for this hardware) and will check in later . . . mahalos.