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Best 2.x liter 4-cylinder engine............

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You know, the QR25 2.5L in the Nissans is a good engine for power/torque, but its not the best engine for longevity... Just has some weird problems. The VQ35 in the Altima is a much better powerplant 😉
 
Originally posted by: Insane3D
From a technical standpoint is how I'm looking at it. A stock MZR engine puts out 160HP...

Also, look at what simple AFR tuning did for a Speed 3...

http://pics.apartment808.com/users/Insane3D/BEGi_MS3_stockandXede.jpg

The problem is, the MZR engine pretty much flies under the radar because Mazda is not where people expect this kind of an engine.

As for problems, I've been immersed in Mazda forums since I got the Speed, and I'm not seeing any engine related problems...

There are a couple people who have had leak problems on the speed, but it's nowhere near widespread unless two or three people on a forum makes something widespread...
Click to expand...


K20Z1 (RSX-S) is ~200 HP
K24A2 (TSX) is ~205 HP
K24A8 (accord) is 166 HP
K23A1 (RDX) is 240 HP

The above numbers are all new, more strict SAE ratings.

The 2.3L mazda 3 engine is actually 156 HP now, new SAE standards made everyone lose power on paper. link

Also what's interesting is the mazda 3 engine loses another 5 HP to gain PZEV emissions rating, making it 151 HP, PZEV cars are sold in CA and the northeast region. Nissan and toyota take a similar hit for their 2.4, 2.5L engines. The accord 2.4L loses nothing to gain the same PZEV emissions rating, it stays 166 HP.

Finally, a fine print note on your dyno graph, the correction factor is listed as uncorrected, which is up to 10% higher than with SAE correction.


 
Ok, I will admit I'm fairly new the 4 cylinder performance engines, but I have a few questions...

When listing the HP figures for the Mazda, you did it to a HP, 156, 151, but the other motors, you felt fine to use the ~. Like...200HP exactly, or ~200HP?

So, from a technical standpoint, not just raw HP output, what makes the K2xx motors better than the MZR? Also, the 2.3L 3 motor is not the same animal as the upgraded one in the speeds...

Also, you are listing worst case scenario from correction, but make no comment on the incredible gains on that dyno from simple AFR tuning?

 
Originally posted by: Insane3D
Ok, I will admit I'm fairly new the 4 cylinder performance engines, but I have a few questions...

When listing the HP figures for the Mazda, you did it to a HP, 156, 151, but the other motors, you felt fine to use the ~. Like...200HP exactly, or ~200HP?

So, from a technical standpoint, not just raw HP output, what makes the K2xx motors better than the MZR? Also, the 2.3L 3 motor is not the same animal as the upgraded one in the speeds...

Also, you are listing worst case scenario from correction, but make no comment on the incredible gains on that dyno from simple AFR tuning?
Click to expand...

I am trying to compare similar engines, NA to NA and same size. I don't have much knowledge of turbo builds.

I didn't know the acura ones exactly off the top of my head, since the rating method changed last year, but just now acura.com says 205 HP for TSX, 201 HP for RSX-S. New SAE ratings.

I'm not sure how honda exactly manages to squeeze out a couple more HP out of their engines against similar ones. I don't have as much knowledge of the teardown details of the other engines, and there are much less good NA mods for them anyways. The toyo/nissan/mazda engines are similar configuration and technology level. I suspect it's the cylinder head design. All these engines are undersquare, relatively long stroke to narrow bore. This means the valve area relative to displacement is low and thus a large limiting factor. So who ever has the best flowing head will make more power. I remember some engine builder on the honda forums once mentioned even the current runty accord heads flow just as well as the old B series integra GSR heads on a flow bench, which was a performance engine for it's day.


i noticed just now the dyno runs are list #1 and then #16. So they ran the dyno 14 times inbetween. That's troubling, especially for uncorrected, changes in ambient conditions can affect changes even more. Strapping and unstrapping alone can change the output also. Exact gains should be back to back runs especially if it is something as simple as retune. Not saying it's completely BS but the info is just sloppy, you know better than I if the source is reputable.

this discussion is getting a little too involved for me 😛
 
Fair enough...

You do seem to be the resident Honda fanboy, so maybe I can be the resident Mazda fanboy...😛

One last thing...I would say Honda has a lot more R & D at it's disposal than Mazda does...

🙂
 
Originally posted by: SketchMaster
Originally posted by: MrMajestyk
The US market is denied some great European diesel technology.

0-60 8.6 secs

40 MPG

BMW 320d
Click to expand...

Don't even get me started on this, I get mad every time I think about the crap we have to buy here in the US.

Funny story.

I was driving a friend home from work in my new car and I was telling him that I really wanted the diesel version of it. He riped into me with the usual misconceptions about diesel (Poor power, loud, dirty, etc.) and if I wanted good MPG I should get a Honda. I pointed to a car in front of us and asked what he thought about that car.

Him: ?What, the Jetta? Ya, thats a good car.?

Me: ?Thats a diesel.?

Him: ?...?
Click to expand...

I like my 1.8t ok but I would love a TDI.
 
mazda chassis are good for their respective classes, I don't really care for their engines, but like you say, they have less r&d at their disposal.

Toyo/nissan cut cost to the point that they use nonindependent rear dead beam suspension in their small cars, which is a slap in the face to anyone semi knowledgeable, but mazda does nothing of that sort. Even honda unfortunately now has crappy dead beams in the european civic hatchback, which they haven't insulted the US with yet.

I'm not necessarily a blind honda fan, they had their share of slip ups such as a generation of crappy V6 auto trannies, but i just say something when there are posts here which I feel are misleading.

 
Originally posted by: Insane3D

Also, looks like Mazda gets 160HP out of it NA, and their champ car got 300HP out of it NA! :Q

http://www.mazdausa.com/MusaWeb/display...sCommon&sectionParameter=news70&bhcp=1
Click to expand...

Ok, just splitting hairs here, but that's not a Champ car. That's an Atlantic series car. BIG difference.

BTW, anybody remember the 2.1L Turbo Toyota engines used in the Eagle Mark IIIs in 1992 IMSA GTP racing? 760hp out of a 4 cylinder and they made it reliable.



 
Originally posted by: redgtxdi
So it appears as though the '08 Altima is sticking with Nissan's 2.5L 4-banger. I can't say I know much about the car at all.

I was impressed when Toyota finally went to a chain-based 4 vs. the old belt. I do love my 5sfe 4-cylinder Toyota motor, but based on today's current motors, I'm wonderin' which is the best among them.

Oh, and the reason I mentioned the Elantra is based on the "World Motor (?)" which Hyundai uses in the Sonata, but skipped using in the Elantra....(they stuck w/ the less refined 2.0).

I believe Mitsubishi uses that motor and perhaps others, too.....(?)
Click to expand...

The 2.5L 4cyl in the Alti is a chain based timing system.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nissan_QR_engine
 
I'd say the 1.8l Toyota engine in the Lotus Elise has got to be up there. When that baby hits 6grand in the revs it really pulls strong up to the 8k redline. 190hp out of a 1.8l NA engine is pretty good IMO.

For engine 2.0 or greater I'd have to go with the Subaru 2.5l turbocharged engine in the WRX-STI.

BTW-For the ultimate 4 banger ever I'd give the nod to the turbocharged BMW engines they entered into Formula One in the 1980s. Those suckers produced over 1000hp.
 
Stock?

Output for the US-spec 2004 Mitsubishi Lancer Evolution is 271 hp (202 kW) at 6500 rpm with 273 ft·lbf (370 N·m) of torque at 3500 rpm. It has a cast iron engine block and aluminum DOHC cylinder head. It uses MPI multi-point fuel injection, has 4 valves per cylinder, is turbocharged and intercooled and features forged steel connecting rods. With the release of the Lancer Evolution IX (286hp @ 6500rpm, 289ft*lb of @ 3500rpm, 7000rpm redline), it has received Mitsubishi's MIVEC variable valve timing system, which gives smoother power delivery and a flatter torque curve.
Click to expand...

Looks like only the EvoIX puts out more, and barely more for having a much larger turbo...
 
whatever it is that they use in the impreza wrx sti 400x 332w 60 prostock they sell in england. or maybe in the evo viii ix 400tq rally special they sell in england.
 
Originally posted by: Insane3D
Stock?

Output for the US-spec 2004 Mitsubishi Lancer Evolution is 271 hp (202 kW) at 6500 rpm with 273 ft·lbf (370 N·m) of torque at 3500 rpm. It has a cast iron engine block and aluminum DOHC cylinder head. It uses MPI multi-point fuel injection, has 4 valves per cylinder, is turbocharged and intercooled and features forged steel connecting rods. With the release of the Lancer Evolution IX (286hp @ 6500rpm, 289ft*lb of @ 3500rpm, 7000rpm redline), it has received Mitsubishi's MIVEC variable valve timing system, which gives smoother power delivery and a flatter torque curve.
Click to expand...

Looks like only the EvoIX puts out more, and barely more for having a much larger turbo...
Click to expand...

It has a larger turbo, but .3l less displacement. There's also an Evo FQ 300/320/340 (all with respective bhp output) with the same engine.

You'd be hard pressed to find a more proven, bullet-proof and performance oriented engine outside of the 2jz.
 
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