Bernie Sanders

[Greenman]

Yes, another Bernie thread.

I listened to him on the radio last night while driving home. While I'm a fairly conservative fellow, I found myself agreeing with much of what he had to say. He comes across as genuine and likable, I just don't see how we could pay for all of his ideas. Does he have an actual plan with real numbers laid out somewhere? I'd like to have a look.

We don't need the normal "he's a rat bastard/savior of humanity" discussion, there are twenty of those threads, I'd like some insight as to if his grand plans are possible.

 

[theeedude]

You are not a conservative fellow then. You are just lost.

 

[Subyman]

He is adjusting the tax rates with 54% being the highest bracket (I believe after $250k.) He is also proposing a phased in minimum wage of $15, which could provide more taxable income for the government. While corporations can massage profits, increasing the paycheck of employees could pull money away from companies and make it more visible to the IRS (W2's and such.) This means easier access to the tax stream.

He plans to eliminate loop holes for corporations stashing money over seas. He claimed 100B in additional tax will come from closing the loop holes. He says the effective tax rate for corporation is too low (meaning the amount they actually pay, not what the rate that is on the books.) He is planning to eliminate subsidies to many industries. He wants to adjust the estate tax. He wants a special "billionaire's" tax. Lift the cap on social security contributions and prevent those above a certain income from getting SS benefits.

Anyway, you can read a lot of his policies on his website. It is very readable. IMO he is using a shotgun approach and throwing everything out there. I highly doubt much of it is possible, but it is nice to have someone reconsidering how the bills are paid.

https://berniesanders.com/issues/how-bernie-pays-for-his-proposals/

 

[fskimospy]

Yes, another Bernie thread.

I listened to him on the radio last night while driving home. While I'm a fairly conservative fellow, I found myself agreeing with much of what he had to say. He comes across as genuine and likable, I just don't see how we could pay for all of his ideas. Does he have an actual plan with real numbers laid out somewhere? I'd like to have a look.

We don't need the normal "he's a rat bastard/savior of humanity" discussion, there are twenty of those threads, I'd like some insight as to if his grand plans are possible.

Sadly, the plans he has now don't actually work out math-wise.

http://fiscalfactcheck.crfb.org/analysis-of-the-sanders-single-payer-offsets/

That Sen. Sanders has shown a commitment to paying for his new initiatives and has proposed specific concrete changes to do so is quite encouraging. However, by our rough estimates, his proposed offsets would cover only three-quarters of his claimed cost, leaving a $3 trillion shortfall over ten years. Even that discrepancy, though, assumes that the campaign’s estimate of the cost of their single-payer plan is correct. An alternate analysis by respected health economist Kenneth Thorpe of Emory University finds a substantially higher cost, which would leave Sanders’s plan $14 trillion short. The plan would also increase the top tax rate beyond the point where most economists believe it could continue generating more revenue and thus could result in even larger deficits as a result of slowed economic growth.

 

[Indus]

Sadly, the plans he has now don't actually work out math-wise.

http://fiscalfactcheck.crfb.org/analysis-of-the-sanders-single-payer-offsets/

When's the last time plans worked out math wise? FDR?

Seriously we just pick the #1, 2, 3 priorities for the next 8 years and run with it because usually after #2 is done, the opposition is in full force to drag down so that #3 never gets done.

 

[fskimospy]

When's the last time plans worked out math wise? FDR?

Seriously we just pick the #1, 2, 3 priorities for the next 8 years and run with it because usually after #2 is done, the opposition is in full force to drag down so that #3 never gets done.

The ACA totally worked out math wise. In fact, it came in below cost projections.

 

[Jaepheth]

Sadly, the plans he has now don't actually work out math-wise.

http://fiscalfactcheck.crfb.org/analysis-of-the-sanders-single-payer-offsets/

Well, what you plan/want to do and what ends up happening are very different things.

Just ask a few of the folks at Guantanamo.

If in a 4 year term all he did was get a third of the tax and government procedure reforms he's talked about passed; I'd call that a win.

 

[Greenman]

You are not a conservative fellow then. You are just lost.

Not lost at all.
When I was a teenager I knew everything, probably the most well informed human on the planet. Several decades later I have a pretty clear understanding of how little I know. So based on the certainty that I have a lot to learn, I try to look at things I used to scoff at with a little more interest, every now and then I learn something.

 

[BoberFett]

You are not a conservative fellow then. You are just lost.

And you're useless. Go away. Preferably somewhere without the internet.

 

[chipwitch]

Not lost at all.
When I was a teenager I knew everything, probably the most well informed human on the planet. Several decades later I have a pretty clear understanding of how little I know. So based on the certainty that I have a lot to learn, I try to look at things I used to scoff at with a little more interest, every now and then I learn something.

Are you sure you're a conservative? Openness to learn? Realize you don't know everything? Formerly the most well informed human on the planet?

Sounds like a conservative turned liberal to me. 😉 It's the same route I took by the way.

 

[mrjminer]

Bernie Sanders supporters are morons. Yea, everything sounds grand --- until you realize nothing can be paid for. Any other candidate could easily propose the bullshit this Marxist proposes, but most candidates at least try to have a realistic plan for how to pay for things. Free college? I'm sure Trump would propose that if he wasn't immediately going to become a laughingstock when there's no way to pay for it. Healthcare? I'm sure Cruz would love to toss that one under his belt... minus the part about not being able to pay for it.

Bernie Sanders is a fucking joke. Pay for nothing, take away more of your rights and/or choices, and transition us even further from a hard-working society to a society of leeches. Also, the whole continually expanding the pathetic federal government we have while doing it thing. Sounds like a loser in all regards.

I mean, think about this: how many people do you personally know that you work harder than? Now, ask yourself if you want to keep working harder than those shitheads so they can have the things you work hard for. If you don't mind, then feel free to vote for Sanders. If you do mind, any other candidate, even Clinton (and trust me, I hate Clinton), is better.

 

[ivwshane]

Bernie Sanders supporters are morons. Yea, everything sounds grand --- until you realize nothing can be paid for. Any other candidate could easily propose the bullshit this Marxist proposes, but most candidates at least try to have a realistic plan for how to pay for things. Free college? I'm sure Trump would propose that if he wasn't immediately going to become a laughingstock when there's no way to pay for it. Healthcare? I'm sure Cruz would love to toss that one under his belt... minus the part about not being able to pay for it.

Bernie Sanders is a fucking joke. Pay for nothing, take away more of your rights and/or choices, and transition us even further from a hard-working society to a society of leeches. Also, the whole continually expanding the pathetic federal government we have while doing it thing. Sounds like a loser in all regards.

I mean, think about this: how many people do you personally know that you work harder than? Now, ask yourself if you want to keep working harder than those shitheads so they can have the things you work hard for. If you don't mind, then feel free to vote for Sanders. If you do mind, any other candidate, even Clinton (and trust me, I hate Clinton), is better.

What's funny is that none of the candidates proposals work out math wise. So who do you vote for? The guy who has a consistent message throughout his career and who has been fighting for the middle class or other candidates who's policies will benefit the ultra rich and could potentially harm the middle class? Or do you go with the candidate whose policies come closest to reality mathematically speaking and policy wise?

I can tell you who definitely wouldn't get my vote!

 

[mrjminer]

What's funny is that none of the candidates proposals work out math wise. So who do you vote for? The guy who has a consistent message throughout his career and who has been fighting for the middle class or other candidates who's policies will benefit the ultra rich and could potentially harm the middle class? Or do you go with the candidate whose policies come closest to reality mathematically speaking and policy wise?

I agree that Ted Cruz should be the next President.

 

[theeedude]

We are seeing a lot of "conservative fellows" start to figure out something is wrong. It's not trickling down.

 

[mysticjbyrd]

Yes, another Bernie thread.

I listened to him on the radio last night while driving home. While I'm a fairly conservative fellow, I found myself agreeing with much of what he had to say. He comes across as genuine and likable, I just don't see how we could pay for all of his ideas. Does he have an actual plan with real numbers laid out somewhere? I'd like to have a look.

We don't need the normal "he's a rat bastard/savior of humanity" discussion, there are twenty of those threads, I'd like some insight as to if his grand plans are possible.

Raise taxes, cut offense spending, stop endless wars, close corporate loopholes.

capital gains tax. Billionaires pay a lower percentage than their secretaries!
Raise of 250k cap on social security
wall street speculation tax

The healthcare basically pays for itself, Instead of paying insurance companies,which have to work for profit, you pay the govt in taxes.

 

[mysticjbyrd]

When's the last time plans worked out math wise? FDR?

Seriously we just pick the #1, 2, 3 priorities for the next 8 years and run with it because usually after #2 is done, the opposition is in full force to drag down so that #3 never gets done.

Except he is talking out of his ass! No sources!

What's funny is that none of the candidates proposals work out math wise. So who do you vote for? The guy who has a consistent message throughout his career and who has been fighting for the middle class or other candidates who's policies will benefit the ultra rich and could potentially harm the middle class? Or do you go with the candidate whose policies come closest to reality mathematically speaking and policy wise?

I can tell you who definitely wouldn't get my vote!

Bernie's plans do work, because he is the only one raising taxes.

Hillary's plans work out as well, but only because she doesn't plan to change anything. It's easy to have a 'balanced' plan, when you don't change anything.

 

[flexy]

I just don't see how we could pay for all of his ideas.

Well...why not pay for "his ideas" the same way many Western European nations do it? His "ideas" are not so much utopic theories which need to be tested, they're working in some countries for 40+ years already.

 

[sandorski]

Bernie Sanders supporters are morons. Yea, everything sounds grand --- until you realize nothing can be paid for. Any other candidate could easily propose the bullshit this Marxist proposes, but most candidates at least try to have a realistic plan for how to pay for things. Free college? I'm sure Trump would propose that if he wasn't immediately going to become a laughingstock when there's no way to pay for it. Healthcare? I'm sure Cruz would love to toss that one under his belt... minus the part about not being able to pay for it.

Bernie Sanders is a fucking joke. Pay for nothing, take away more of your rights and/or choices, and transition us even further from a hard-working society to a society of leeches. Also, the whole continually expanding the pathetic federal government we have while doing it thing. Sounds like a loser in all regards.

I mean, think about this: how many people do you personally know that you work harder than? Now, ask yourself if you want to keep working harder than those shitheads so they can have the things you work hard for. If you don't mind, then feel free to vote for Sanders. If you do mind, any other candidate, even Clinton (and trust me, I hate Clinton), is better.

Has anything since Nixon(ish) been "Paid for"?

 

[Indus]

Has anything since Nixon(ish) been "Paid for"?

You mean since FDR's atom bomb which Truman used on Japan to not make the war more expensive in terms of lives and money..

Lets see now.. Eisenhower's highway program.. worked beautifully but math?

Kennedy's Space Exploration to the moon..

LBJ's Vietnam..

and then there's ofcourse Nixon you were talking about..

 

[werepossum]

Not lost at all.
When I was a teenager I knew everything, probably the most well informed human on the planet. Several decades later I have a pretty clear understanding of how little I know. So based on the certainty that I have a lot to learn, I try to look at things I used to scoff at with a little more interest, every now and then I learn something.

Well said.

I agree that Ted Cruz should be the next President.

lol

I can't help feeling like I'm being unfair to Cruz. I don't think I've ever even heard the man speak, and I've never looked at any of his proposals. But he just gives me the creeps to look at him. Don't know why, he just does.

Are you sure you're a conservative? Openness to learn? Realize you don't know everything? Formerly the most well informed human on the planet?

Sounds like a conservative turned liberal to me. 😉 It's the same route I took by the way.

I'd happily consider myself a liberal except that you guys are allied with the progressives. Western liberalism performed a near miracle in acquiring individual liberty, establishing the rights of the minority and the individual against the power of government, promoting freedom both from government and from religion. The poor 17th century peasant was as powerless as his counterpart a thousand or more years earlier; the poor twentieth century peasant has boundless opportunities and liberties. Liberals established that the poor peasant has the same right to self-protection - even against the government and the aristocracy - as does the king. On the other hand:

Progressives want government to decide what the individual may drink with lunch, what the individual may say or write or even think. Progressives believe that all wealth belongs to government (i.e. "the people") and thus government taking a larger share today than a few hundred years ago is a good thing. The two aren't completely at odds - no two broad-based ideologies are - but much of the good that liberalism gave us, progressives want to take away. When liberals figure that out, I'll be ready. Until then, I'll try to conserve what the liberals have given us - without letting either side take it away.

 

[DrPizza]

The single payer healthcare thing is mind boggling. So, are the anti-Sanders people saying that it would increase healthcare spending in this country by trillions of dollars??

I would think it simply shuffles the money around, and eliminates one of the big, in it for profit, middle men. Further, they need to make sure the govt. can negotiate prices, not bend over and take it. There are a lot of things that could be much more efficient. "Hey, we need 100 new MRI machines." Instead of each hospital saying, "Hi, we'd like a new MRI machine."

 

[werepossum]

The single payer healthcare thing is mind boggling. So, are the anti-Sanders people saying that it would increase healthcare spending in this country by trillions of dollars??

I would think it simply shuffles the money around, and eliminates one of the big, in it for profit, middle men. Further, they need to make sure the govt. can negotiate prices, not bend over and take it. There are a lot of things that could be much more efficient. "Hey, we need 100 new MRI machines." Instead of each hospital saying, "Hi, we'd like a new MRI machine."

Imagine how wealthy politicians will be when they control a bid for 100 new MRI suites.

 

[Jaskalas]

We are seeing a lot of "conservative fellows" start to figure out something is wrong. It's not trickling down.

"Inequality for Fall" is revolutionary.
The message is sinking in that Republicans have no good answer to it, if any.

Instead of Dems appearing to attack working class 6 figure families, this has been rearranged as Wallstreet owning Washington and screwing us all over. That is catching on like wildifre. Now who is going to bust up American financials and actually do something good for the people?

 

[mysticjbyrd]

Imagine how wealthy politicians will be when they control a bid for 100 new MRI suites.

Hillary and ol' slick Willy made 125 million in speaking fees in like a decade! That's money from x group, into their personal bank account. It doesn't include anything under the table or campaign contributions....

You really think universal healthcare is what will cause corruption!??! Really?!!????!

You also have to take Bernie's potus picks into account. He is the only one interested in ensuring the scotus overturns citizens united, and corporations=people. It's safe to say he won't stop there to weed out the corruption, either.

 

[werepossum]

Hillary and ol' slick Willy made 125 million in speaking fees in like a decade! That's money from x group, into their personal bank account. It doesn't include anything under the table or campaign contributions....

You really think universal healthcare is what will cause corruption!??! Really?!!????!

You also have to take Bernie's potus picks into account. He is the only one interested in ensuring the scotus overturns citizens united, and corporations=people. It's safe to say he won't stop there to weed out the corruption, either.

That isn't really that unusual though; former Presidents are always in great demand, and every one except Truman has taken great advantage of that.