Bernie Sanders would destroy the economy...

[chucky2]

Voting is not same as accomplishing something. What has Bernie accomplished legislatively? Veto stick would preserve the Status Quo. So Sanders is the Status Quo candidate, not Clinton.

Bernie could pull the legislation to the Left since the Politicians would know ahead of time it'd have to be written slanted in the hope POTUS Bernie would sign it.

Even Status Quo isn't bad if things will get worse.

 

[BurnItDwn]

I think I would say the opposite. He seems focused on a broad theme, but when it comes to turning that theme into policies he doesn't seem to know what he's doing. His health care plan is a trillion dollars in the hole even after you accept its pretty unrealistic projections for savings, for example.

I think he's been able to spend most of his career not having to worry about actually writing legislation or crafting policy that works. Now that he's prominent enough that people are paying attention this really shows.

He's still light years better than any Republican candidate running, however. If you look at their plans they are even more comically inept.

On banking,
He says he wants to break up the big banks, and he has mentioned he supports reinstating the provisions of Glass-Steagall which had been repealed in the 80s and in 99. His method for breaking up the banks is sound, set a size target, and then let the banks divest how they would like.

As far as his health care plan. I agree that there is a lot of "napkin math", but overall, a single payer system should reduce costs due to the huge reduction in administrative needs. (for evidence of this, look to all other 1st world countries, and many developing countries) Taxes would go up, I believe sanders estimates are very optimistic, likely they would likely need to increase the rate more than the proposed 2.2% for individual income tax. Likely the 6.2% employer payroll tax will wind up costing the employee as well. Setting the capital gains tax to match earned income tax is IMO long overdue, but, it is conceivable that people will chose to hold onto their investments more rather than sell/trade things around so that they can defer taxes.
But, he has stated his proposed framework, and thrown in some rough numbers. It's not a final product, it's not even a blueprint, but, it's good for a rough framework.

Congress people and Senators haven't written any policy in recent decades. They are all written by lobbyists. So, if it appears that Sanders is inexperienced with some of the nuance of policy making, the same could be said of all of congress.

 

[Jhhnn]

They do when they're under Dem presidents.

Repubs are good with any deficit coming from top tier tax cuts & military spending.

Cuz taxes are bad, mkay? And cuz Commies! are bad, too. Wait- check that- Terrarists! are the new Commies. I forget.

 

[Exophase]

Third, eliminate the income limit to the payroll tax.

Would you remove the social security income limits from benefit calculation too? If not that's kind of going against the spirit of what the social security contribution is supposed to be (which leads back to why it was capped in the first place)

 

[Jhhnn]

Would you remove the social security income limits from benefit calculation too? If not that's kind of going against the spirit of what the social security contribution is supposed to be (which leads back to why it was capped in the first place)

The system was not designed to cope with changes in income distribution wrought by Free Market Reaganomics over the last 35 years. Nor does it offer any provisions to honor the efforts of boomers & genx'ers who've paid it forward to create the $2.7T trust fund we have today.

It's been a giant cash cow for decades & can be restored to that status by collecting just the employees' share on all income above the current limit & by raising the maximum payout to several times the median income. Contributions from employers could remain unchanged. The "trust fund" would grow forever & benefit levels could be maintained indefinitely w/o any drama whatsoever.

Yeh, there's no Freedumb! in that, is there?

 

[ivwshane]

On banking,
He says he wants to break up the big banks, and he has mentioned he supports reinstating the provisions of Glass-Steagall which had been repealed in the 80s and in 99. His method for breaking up the banks is sound, set a size target, and then let the banks divest how they would like.

As far as his health care plan. I agree that there is a lot of "napkin math", but overall, a single payer system should reduce costs due to the huge reduction in administrative needs. (for evidence of this, look to all other 1st world countries, and many developing countries) Taxes would go up, I believe sanders estimates are very optimistic, likely they would likely need to increase the rate more than the proposed 2.2% for individual income tax. Likely the 6.2% employer payroll tax will wind up costing the employee as well. Setting the capital gains tax to match earned income tax is IMO long overdue, but, it is conceivable that people will chose to hold onto their investments more rather than sell/trade things around so that they can defer taxes.
But, he has stated his proposed framework, and thrown in some rough numbers. It's not a final product, it's not even a blueprint, but, it's good for a rough framework.

Congress people and Senators haven't written any policy in recent decades. They are all written by lobbyists. So, if it appears that Sanders is inexperienced with some of the nuance of policy making, the same could be said of all of congress.

Bernie's game plan requires a completely new and willing congress to work with him to reach his goals. That right there stops anything and everything he wants to do. Bernie sanders is up there with ted Cruz as the most partisan senator and people think he will somehow accomplish the biggest policy ideas he's ever had in his career despite achieving exactly zero policies during his 25+ years as a politician. I don't think so. Bernie, like Ron Paul, are big on stating what the problems are and they even have solutions but what they don't have is a path , any path, to get from A to C.

Bernie "revolution" requires not only getting people to support him but it also requires other politicians to support him and he's been doing jack shit to help those down ballot (except for three politicians who have given their support to him).

Is a snake oil salesman still a snake if he's selling something other than snake oil?

 

[werepossum]

So to be clear you think the left worships tax increases but wants ever increasing budget deficits. Wouldn't it be easier to have larger budget deficits if you didn't raise taxes? Also it is amusing to watch you selectively assign credit or blame for deficits based on what is convenient.

You are seriously just a ranting uncle at thanksgiving, haha. I don't know what is funnier, your insane ideas about what liberals think or your idea that you're a moderate for thinking so. There's so much self delusion here.

Of course it would be easier to have larger budget deficits if you didn't raise taxes - but then you'd have no cover for the glorious big government programs. And you'll never see me describe myself as a moderate. I have some far right positions, some far left positions, and some populist positions that don't fit either side.

Bernie's game plan requires a completely new and willing congress to work with him to reach his goals. That right there stops anything and everything he wants to do. Bernie sanders is up there with ted Cruz as the most partisan senator and people think he will somehow accomplish the biggest policy ideas he's ever had in his career despite achieving exactly zero policies during his 25+ years as a politician. I don't think so. Bernie, like Ron Paul, are big on stating what the problems are and they even have solutions but what they don't have is a path , any path, to get from A to C.

Bernie "revolution" requires not only getting people to support him but it also requires other politicians to support him and he's been doing jack shit to help those down ballot (except for three politicians who have given their support to him).

Is a snake oil salesman still a snake if he's selling something other than snake oil?

Look at their voting records. Sanders is merely Hillary with ethics and penis except for two big areas, Wall Street/banking and foreign wars. Surprisingly, even though these are the things you guys claim to most hate, you are most supporting the candidate who has the most Republican positions on both.

 

[Jhhnn]

Bernie's game plan requires a completely new and willing congress to work with him to reach his goals. That right there stops anything and everything he wants to do. Bernie sanders is up there with ted Cruz as the most partisan senator and people think he will somehow accomplish the biggest policy ideas he's ever had in his career despite achieving exactly zero policies during his 25+ years as a politician. I don't think so. Bernie, like Ron Paul, are big on stating what the problems are and they even have solutions but what they don't have is a path , any path, to get from A to C.

Bernie "revolution" requires not only getting people to support him but it also requires other politicians to support him and he's been doing jack shit to help those down ballot (except for three politicians who have given their support to him).

Is a snake oil salesman still a snake if he's selling something other than snake oil?

I agree with much of that but calling Bernie a snake oil salesman questions his sincerity. I don't think he's insincere at all. I grant the same sincerity to Clinton, as well.

I think Clinton will better advance a progressive agenda because she'll pick her battles well, not go tilting at windmills. She's also well acquainted with the levers of govt power in ways that no other contender can match. When you want something done, hire somebody who already knows who to call upon & how to do it.

 

[ivwshane]

Of course it would be easier to have larger budget deficits if you didn't raise taxes - but then you'd have no cover for the glorious big government programs. And you'll never see me describe myself as a moderate. I have some far right positions, some far left positions, and some populist positions that don't fit either side.


Look at their voting records. Sanders is merely Hillary with ethics and penis except for two big areas, Wall Street/banking and foreign wars. Surprisingly, even though these are the things you guys claim to most hate, you are most supporting the candidate who has the most Republican positions on both.

And what exactly is bernie's qualifications for wall Street and foreign wars? What legislation has he proposed? What politicians did he sway?

I've said it before and I'll say it again, bernie has been on the right side of history 100% of the time but so what? So was I, so what makes him better than me accomplishments wise?

 

[werepossum]

And what exactly is bernie's qualifications for wall Street and foreign wars? What legislation has he proposed? What politicians did he sway?

I've said it before and I'll say it again, bernie has been on the right side of history 100% of the time but so what? So was I, so what makes him better than me accomplishments wise?

And Mrs. Clinton's achievements are . . . ?

 

[flexy]

I think Clinton will better advance a progressive agenda because she'll pick her battles well, not go tilting at windmills. She's also well acquainted with the levers of govt power in ways that no other contender can match. When you want something done, hire somebody who already knows who to call upon & how to do it.

This is true, but whether she wants to advance a progressive agenda I have my doubts. I don't see anything indicating she is a "progressive" at all, in fact one could shift her over to the Rep side, she'd do well over there.

What makes her progressive in your opinion?

TBH, all she has "going for her", IF ANYTHING, is that she's a woman and is now tooting the equality/LGBT horn - but she does that with ANY special group, she is saying whatever people want to hear. She is SAYING she is progressive, she is even saying she wants to take on WallStreet (her, from all candidates...)...she comes across as a lying person who'd say anything as long as it makes her get the presidency. I don't trust her one bit. She is an establishment-whore who is now pretending to be against it.

 

[ivwshane]

And Mrs. Clinton's achievements are . . . ?

•Co-founded Arkansas Advocates for Children and Families
•created Arkansas's Home Instruction Program for Preschool Youth
•led a task force that reformed Arkansas's education system
•Instrumental in passage of the State Children's Health Insurance Program
•Promoted nationwide immunization against childhood illnesses
•Successfully sought to increase research funding for prostate cancer and childhood asthma at the National Institutes of Health
•Worked to investigate reports of an illness that affected veterans of the Gulf War (now recognized as Gulf War Syndrome)
•Helped create the Office on Violence Against Women at the Department of Justice
•Initiated and shepherded the Adoption and Safe Families Act
•Helped create Vital Voices, an international initiative to promote the participation of women in the political processes of their countries.
•Instrumental in securing $21 billion in funding for the World Trade Center site's redevelopment
•Leading role in investigating the health issues faced by 9/11 first responders.
•In the aftermath of September 11th, she worked closely with her senior Senate counterpart from New York, Sen. Charles Schumer, on securing $21.4 billion in funding for the World Trade Center redevelopment.
• Middle East ceasefire. In November 2012, Secretary of State Clinton brokered a ceasefire deal between Israel and Hamas.
•Introduced the Family Entertainment Protection Act, intended to protect children from inappropriate content found in video games.

I would also add that the whole issue of health care reform has been brought to the forefront because of her and her 30+ year fight for health care reform. This list also doesn't include her influence on bills that were amended and passed nor does it include personal accomplishments such as being a SoS.

The fact that you don't know of any of hillarys accomplishments is a testament to just how poor of a politician hillary is.

It's also pretty telling that you didn't bother or even attempt to answer my question about what bernie has accomplished.

 

[ivwshane]

This is true, but whether she wants to advance a progressive agenda I have my doubts. I don't see anything indicating she is a "progressive" at all, in fact one could shift her over to the Rep side, she'd do well over there.

What makes her progressive in your opinion?

TBH, all she has "going for her", IF ANYTHING, is that she's a woman and is now tooting the equality/LGBT horn - but she does that with ANY special group, she is saying whatever people want to hear. She is SAYING she is progressive, she is even saying she wants to take on WallStreet (her, from all candidates...)...she comes across as a lying person who'd say anything as long as it makes her get the presidency. I don't trust her one bit. She is an establishment-whore who is now pretending to be against it.

Thirty years of anti Hillary propaganda has solidified with low information voters like yourself who simply can't be bothered to fact check a single damn thing. You don't trust her because you've been told not to trust her.

 

[HamburgerBoy]

lol, did you literally copy and paste those from a list somewhere? I mean, fucking video games, really?

EDIT: Yeah, you apparently just copied that from some random news comment section unless you're 1Mister from Disqus.

 

[ivwshane]

lol, did you literally copy and paste those from a list somewhere? I mean, fucking video games, really?

EDIT: Yeah, you apparently just copied that from some random news comment section unless you're 1Mister from Disqus.

Yeah, did you think I had a list of hillary accomplishments on the top of my head? Would you like to dispute anything on that list?

 

[HamburgerBoy]

How many Israeli ceasefires have been brokered and then later broken? Who doesn't support immunizing kids? Is a $21 billion redevelopment project at the WTC site anything more than feel-good money blowing? If you're going to attack Bernie for being ineffective as a legislator, you should be able to do better than a copy pasted list of easy and/or meaningless crap for your own candidate.

 

[ivwshane]

How many Israeli ceasefires have been brokered and then later broken? Who doesn't support immunizing kids? Is a $21 billion redevelopment project at the WTC site anything more than feel-good money blowing? If you're going to attack Bernie for being ineffective as a legislator, you should be able to do better than a copy pasted list of easy and/or meaningless crap for your own candidate.

Wait, so your argument is that hillarys accomplishments aren't valid because you say so or because you don't like them? Compelling! Go ahead and dispute every single one listed and then maybe you can post bernie's accomplishments that meet your same criteria. I doubt you will though.

 

[woolfe9998]

She's had other accomplishments as well. For example, she played a major role in getting China and Russia to agree to tough sanctions against Iran, which is what more recently brought Iran to the negotiating table.

But there is little point in quoting or linking to information which is readily available. You can just google "hillary clinton accomplishments" and see for yourself.

 

[ivwshane]

She's had other accomplishments as well. For example, she played a major role in getting China and Russia to agree to tough sanctions against Iran, which is what more recently brought Iran to the negotiating table.

But there is little point in quoting or linking to information which is readily available. You can just google "hillary clinton accomplishments" and see for yourself.

These people are impervious to facts. I pointed out facts about what bernie's record is and his chances of achieving anything he has proposed and they just go ape shit.


Btw, I've Google'd bernie's accomplishments and they read like the other half of hillarys accomplishments, nothing but fluff. He's a career politician with little to show for it. He's served his purpose this election year which was to pull hillary further left and to bring to attention, more so than it was, money in politics.

 

[woolfe9998]

These people are impervious to facts. I pointed out facts about what bernie's record is and his chances of achieving anything he has proposed and they just go ape shit.


Btw, I've Google'd bernie's accomplishments and they read like the other half of hillarys accomplishments, nothing but fluff. He's a career politician with little to show for it. He's served his purpose this election year which was to pull hillary further left and to bring to attention, more so than it was, money in politics.

For me, the real test for Sanders is how he will behave when he loses the nomination to Clinton. Will he try to unify the party by endorsing her, or will he instead be vindictive? It's important because of the nature of many of his supporters who have convinced themselves that Clinton is not better than the GOP field. Some of that assumption comes from the way Sanders has chosen to campaign against Clinton, such as putting so much emphasis on campaign donations from Wall Street. But Sanders knows better. He knows that Clinton is 1000x better than Trump or Cruz. Let's see if he acknowledges it.

 

[werepossum]

•Co-founded Arkansas Advocates for Children and Families
•created Arkansas's Home Instruction Program for Preschool Youth
•led a task force that reformed Arkansas's education system
•Instrumental in passage of the State Children's Health Insurance Program
•Promoted nationwide immunization against childhood illnesses
•Successfully sought to increase research funding for prostate cancer and childhood asthma at the National Institutes of Health
•Worked to investigate reports of an illness that affected veterans of the Gulf War (now recognized as Gulf War Syndrome)
•Helped create the Office on Violence Against Women at the Department of Justice
•Initiated and shepherded the Adoption and Safe Families Act
•Helped create Vital Voices, an international initiative to promote the participation of women in the political processes of their countries.
•Instrumental in securing $21 billion in funding for the World Trade Center site's redevelopment
•Leading role in investigating the health issues faced by 9/11 first responders.
•In the aftermath of September 11th, she worked closely with her senior Senate counterpart from New York, Sen. Charles Schumer, on securing $21.4 billion in funding for the World Trade Center redevelopment.
• Middle East ceasefire. In November 2012, Secretary of State Clinton brokered a ceasefire deal between Israel and Hamas.
•Introduced the Family Entertainment Protection Act, intended to protect children from inappropriate content found in video games.

I would also add that the whole issue of health care reform has been brought to the forefront because of her and her 30+ year fight for health care reform. This list also doesn't include her influence on bills that were amended and passed nor does it include personal accomplishments such as being a SoS.

The fact that you don't know of any of hillarys accomplishments is a testament to just how poor of a politician hillary is.

It's also pretty telling that you didn't bother or even attempt to answer my question about what bernie has accomplished.

I'd have to do some investigation to see how much of that cut-and-paste list is (A) true and (B) an actual accomplishment. Such accomplishments are pretty loose among politicians. For instance, Obama's supposed accomplishment in all his years as an Illinois state senator was passage of a children's health care bill, but when you look into it, it was a Republican bill written and sponsored by Republicans to expand a previous Republican bill in a Republican-controlled state government. I do however have another you can add: found the Rose Law Firm billing records. In her own home. The day after the statute ran.

As far as Bernie's accomplishments, I'll leave that to the Bern-Outs. From my perspective, he's one of very few CongressCritters not to use his office to make himself fabulously wealthy, and his speeches actually match his voting record. Both are rare in D.C. and that gains my respect. And of course, he hasn't orchestrated a way to put himself above the Freedom of Information Act.

 

[Bowfinger]

[ ... ] But Sanders knows better. He knows that Clinton is 1000x better than Trump or Cruz. Let's see if he acknowledges it.

He already has: link.

If only Clinton's rabid supporters could be so gracious.

 

[ivwshane]

I'd have to do some investigation to see how much of that cut-and-paste list is (A) true and (B) an actual accomplishment. Such accomplishments are pretty loose among politicians. For instance, Obama's supposed accomplishment in all his years as an Illinois state senator was passage of a children's health care bill, but when you look into it, it was a Republican bill written and sponsored by Republicans to expand a previous Republican bill in a Republican-controlled state government. I do however have another you can add: found the Rose Law Firm billing records. In her own home. The day after the statute ran.

As far as Bernie's accomplishments, I'll leave that to the Bern-Outs. From my perspective, he's one of very few CongressCritters not to use his office to make himself fabulously wealthy, and his speeches actually match his voting record. Both are rare in D.C. and that gains my respect. And of course, he hasn't orchestrated a way to put himself above the Freedom of Information Act.

By all means look in to it.

If your idea of presidential is a 30+ year politician who has basically collected a paycheck for showing up to work, then more power to you.

I do think it's odd that you would be willing to vote for bernie without doing any examination of his record while dismissing hillary as an option while simultaneously going through her record with a fine tooth comb.

 

[Jhhnn]

This is true, but whether she wants to advance a progressive agenda I have my doubts. I don't see anything indicating she is a "progressive" at all, in fact one could shift her over to the Rep side, she'd do well over there.

What makes her progressive in your opinion?

TBH, all she has "going for her", IF ANYTHING, is that she's a woman and is now tooting the equality/LGBT horn - but she does that with ANY special group, she is saying whatever people want to hear. She is SAYING she is progressive, she is even saying she wants to take on WallStreet (her, from all candidates...)...she comes across as a lying person who'd say anything as long as it makes her get the presidency. I don't trust her one bit. She is an establishment-whore who is now pretending to be against it.

Gawd. Right wing FUD has def warped your perception, as intended. The notion that she won't advocate Democratic values & preserve programs near & dear to Democrats in general is absurd.

https://www.hillaryclinton.com/issues/

This whole "trust" routine is bullshit. How do I know? It's promulgated by right wing talking heads, always has been, and they're still furiously spinning trickle down economics & Neocon foreign policy. It's not like anybody who thinks with the head on their shoulders rather than the head on their dick trusts their picks in the slightest.

 

[sm625]

See, my blood-pressure has reached a point where I'm ready to log off for today, so I won't waste words. You think you know something, but you don't. Your aim is pointed off target. Did you read the link I posted about the Panama Papers?

The panama papers are nothing new to me. The key takeaway from the panama papers is the same old story. The masses arent going to pay attention to any of it. The masses dont care because that story will never make the corporate news. The only thing that surprises me about the panama papers is that I havent seen the "conspiracy theorist" pejorative thrown around as much as I first assumed it would.

We've been living in a kleptocracy, and it isn't "big government" that is the culprit. It is the kleptocracy which has circled its wagons of interest and influence around our government.

That is big government. It is the swarm of parasites that surround government that make it "big government". Laws and regulations are like rotting meat. The more you have, the more maggots you are going to have. That is why any rational person much be an advocate of a limited federal government. It is why the founders framed the constitution the way they did. They knew all about maggots back then. Maggots havent really changed in 200 years, even though they now carry smartphones.

Second, we're not going to assent to any Utopian solution that takes us back to pre-Roosevelt America. The slog uphill over some seven decades has been too hard to relinquish what we have. Further, nobody is going to vote for it in that way, for those types of radical reactionary ideas: there are too many losers and too few winners.

Constitutional is not radical. Restoring a limited government is not radical, it is American through and through. And yes it will happen if the country is to survive. Because it is not going to survive an invasion of low IQ leftists from low IQ 3rd world countries who have no desire for or respect for limited government. If they succeed in their invasion and their quest to outbreed the natives, then the country will simply be gone and replaced by a tin pot dictatorship with no bill of rights. That is what all these people want, its all they know.

I'd say we should start by accepting responsibility for Obama's predecessor and our misbegotten decision to elect him -- restore his tax cuts and even increase taxes to pay down some of the debt you cite.

Obama is his predecessor. Same neocon-led foreign policy. Same big government tax and spend fiscal policy. Same destruction of sovereignty. This singular fact is the well where Trump and Sanders spring from. Decades of globalists, parasites, crooks, con men, and their media tentacles. They are the ones who draw these fake lines of distinction between Bushes and Clintons and Obamas. But in every way that matters, they are in fact the same.

Then, there's the IRS. Increase staffing, crack down brutally hard on off-shore banking tax evasion, and begin collecting the $500 billion per year that slips through the cracks because they are so understaffed that they can't even adequately audit computer-selected taxpayers to the degree done during Reagan's first term.

Again this is completely wrong. The IRS is just another nest of parasites. The more you grow it the more parasites infest it. The answer is to cut the IRS. Eliminate the IRS. Replace it with a flat taxation on consumption, a tax that cannot be gamed, cannot be manipulated, cannot benefit in any way from an army of attorneys and lobbyists that only the rich can afford. This is the most basic premise of limited government.