Bernard Lewis Lecture

cwjerome

Diamond Member
Sep 30, 2004
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Bernard Lewis usually has some interesting things to say, and I agree with him -generally- on many issues. For those interested in history and the modern Arab/Islamic situation:
A Lecture by Bernard Lewis

I agree with his thesis that Arabs "..[can] develop democratic institutions ...." On the other hand, in supporting that thesis he states that the Arab authoritarian regimes "have no roots whatever in the Arab or Islamic past," which is going way too far. Linking failed Arab regimes exclusively to doctrines imported from Europe is far too "western-centric," because the Arabs are independent actors who have brought a lot of their own history to bear and who have reworked significantly whatever they imported.

He seems to forget the myriad of ways Arabs are deeply rooted in their own deeply rooted governmental traditions in principles.

The reality is, both Nazi fascist and Soviet influences were comparatively modest and fleeting. Accepting that the Arabs themselves have contributed to the unsatisfactory performance of their governments and their economies, it follows that improvement can only occur if they reshape the internal doctrines and attitudes that shaped those inadequate governments and economies. Merely turning away from sketchy "Western" doctrines like Nazism or Communism will not work.
 

conjur

No Lifer
Jun 7, 2001
58,686
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Communism is "western"?

But, communism (at least of the Soviet variety) didn't have much effect in, say, Iraq. The Iraqi Communist Party (which was oh so close to taking power in the 50s and turning Iraq into a stable nation) was fought against by US interests despite having little to no relationships with the Soviet empire. It was more nationalistic in nature.

I'll have to check into this link.

Thanks.
 

Rainsford

Lifer
Apr 25, 2001
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Interesting, but I have a problem taking an essay like that seriously when the author not only assumes a totally generic and homogeneous "Islamic world" but uses the terms Arab and Muslim interchangeably. Various groups within the Islamic world have different outlooks, agendas, goals, etc, and understanding and dealing with them requires something a little more sophisticated than the 30,000 ft view of them being a bunch of interchangeable "Arabs/Muslims".
 

conjur

No Lifer
Jun 7, 2001
58,686
3
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Originally posted by: Rainsford
Interesting, but I have a problem taking an essay like that seriously when the author not only assumes a totally generic and homogeneous "Islamic world" but uses the terms Arab and Muslim interchangeably. Various groups within the Islamic world have different outlooks, agendas, goals, etc, and understanding and dealing with them requires something a little more sophisticated than the 30,000 ft view of them being a bunch of interchangeable "Arabs/Muslims".
I didn't come away from that that the author was interchanging Arab and Muslim.

It was a rather high-level review of recent history in the area and much of it has been touched upon in many other outlets (Power of Nightmares BBC documentary, Lawrence Wright's latest work, writings from Tariq Ali, etc.)
 

BMW540I6speed

Golden Member
Aug 26, 2005
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The current spat of terrorism (from 9/11 onward)didn't happen overnight. It was festering years ago and included the induction of children into a mindset of self-destruction. Until some Muslims sects are prevented from the indoctrination of children into an environment of hatred it will have an inexhaustible source of suicide bombers.

I disagree with the premise that converting to a strict form of Islam would work because there is no indication that different Muslim sects can work and play well together in Islamic countries. What makes the religion (pertaining to sects & fundie islamic movements)so dangerous is a lack of centralized leadership. Any man who has logged enough Quran hrs can declare himself an Imam and start an army. There is no certification or dedicated platform within each sect. The closest thing to an organized religious hierarchy is Turkey's political system. They control the religious doctrine right down to the Friday sermon which is sent to each Mosque.

Islam has to fix itself from within. They need a Martin Luther level of reform that transforms the religion "as a whole" into one of peace. Muslims have to want the change or it won't happen and it certainly won't happen overnight. All we can do is promote the personal freedom necessary to achieve it.
 

cwjerome

Diamond Member
Sep 30, 2004
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When you look at macro issues, especially in a historical context, the use of general terms is not a crime Rainsford.

In any case, here's another interesting piece from Lewis in the Wall Street Journal a while back.
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During the Cold War, both sides possessed weapons of mass destruction, but neither side used them, deterred by what was known as MAD, mutual assured destruction. Similar constraints have no doubt prevented their use in the confrontation between India and Pakistan. In our own day a new such confrontation seems to be looming between a nuclear-armed Iran and its favorite enemies, named by the late Ayatollah Khomeini as the Great Satan and the Little Satan, i.e., the United States and Israel. Against the U.S. the bombs might be delivered by terrorists, a method having the advantage of bearing no return address. Against Israel, the target is small enough to attempt obliteration by direct bombardment.

It seems increasingly likely that the Iranians either have or very soon will have nuclear weapons at their disposal, thanks to their own researches (which began some 15 years ago), to some of their obliging neighbors, and to the ever-helpful rulers of North Korea. The language used by Iranian President Ahmadinejad would seem to indicate the reality and indeed the imminence of this threat.

Would the same constraints, the same fear of mutual assured destruction, restrain a nuclear-armed Iran from using such weapons against the U.S. or against Israel?

There is a radical difference between the Islamic Republic of Iran and other governments with nuclear weapons. This difference is expressed in what can only be described as the apocalyptic worldview of Iran's present rulers. This worldview and expectation, vividly expressed in speeches, articles and even schoolbooks, clearly shape the perception and therefore the policies of Ahmadinejad and his disciples.

Even in the past it was clear that terrorists claiming to act in the name of Islam had no compunction in slaughtering large numbers of fellow Muslims. A notable example was the blowing up of the American embassies in East Africa in 1998, killing a few American diplomats and a much larger number of uninvolved local passersby, many of them Muslims. There were numerous other Muslim victims in the various terrorist attacks of the last 15 years.

The phrase "Allah will know his own" is usually used to explain such apparently callous unconcern; it means that while infidel, i.e., non- Muslim, victims will go to a well-deserved punishment in hell, Muslims will be sent straight to heaven. According to this view, the bombers are in fact doing their Muslim victims a favor by giving them a quick pass to heaven and its delights -- the rewards without the struggles of martyrdom. School textbooks tell young Iranians to be ready for a final global struggle against an evil enemy, named as the U.S., and to prepare themselves for the privileges of martyrdom.

A direct attack on the U.S., though possible, is less likely in the immediate future. Israel is a nearer and easier target, and Mr. Ahmadinejad has given indication of thinking along these lines. The Western observer would immediately think of two possible deterrents. The first is that an attack that wipes out Israel would almost certainly wipe out the Palestinians too. The second is that such an attack would evoke a devastating reprisal from Israel against Iran, since one may surely assume that the Israelis have made the necessary arrangements for a counterstrike even after a nuclear holocaust in Israel.

The first of these possible deterrents might well be of concern to the Palestinians -- but not apparently to their fanatical champions in the Iranian government. The second deterrent -- the threat of direct retaliation on Iran -- is, as noted, already weakened by the suicide or martyrdom complex that plagues parts of the Islamic world today, without parallel in other religions, or for that matter in the Islamic past. This complex has become even more important at the present day, because of this new apocalyptic vision.

In Islam, as in Judaism and Christianity, there are certain beliefs concerning the cosmic struggle at the end of time -- Gog and Magog, anti-Christ, Armageddon, and for Shiite Muslims, the long awaited return of the Hidden Imam, ending in the final victory of the forces of good over evil, however these may be defined. Mr. Ahmadinejad and his followers clearly believe that this time is now, and that the terminal struggle has already begun and is indeed well advanced. It may even have a date, indicated by several references by the Iranian president to giving his final answer to the U.S. about nuclear development by Aug. 22. This was at first reported as "by the end of August," but Mr. Ahmadinejad's statement was more precise.

What is the significance of Aug. 22? This year, Aug. 22 corresponds, in the Islamic calendar, to the 27th day of the month of Rajab of the year 1427. This, by tradition, is the night when many Muslims commemorate the night flight of the prophet Muhammad on the winged horse Buraq, first to "the farthest mosque," usually identified with Jerusalem, and then to heaven and back (c.f., Koran XVII.1). This might well be deemed an appropriate date for the apocalyptic ending of Israel and if necessary of the world. It is far from certain that Mr. Ahmadinejad plans any such cataclysmic events precisely for Aug. 22. But it would be wise to bear the possibility in mind.

A passage from the Ayatollah Khomeini, quoted in an 11th-grade Iranian schoolbook, is revealing. "I am decisively announcing to the whole world that if the world-devourers [i.e., the infidel powers] wish to stand against our religion, we will stand against their whole world and will not cease until the annihilation of all them. Either we all become free, or we will go to the greater freedom which is martyrdom. Either we shake one another's hands in joy at the victory of Islam in the world, or all of us will turn to eternal life and martyrdom. In both cases, victory and success are ours."

In this context, mutual assured destruction, the deterrent that worked so well during the Cold War, would have no meaning. At the end of time, there will be general destruction anyway. What will matter will be the final destination of the dead -- hell for the infidels, and heaven for the believers. For people with this mindset, MAD is not a constraint; it is an inducement.

How then can one confront such an enemy, with such a view of life and death? Some immediate precautions are obviously possible and necessary. In the long term, it would seem that the best, perhaps the only hope is to appeal to those Muslims, Iranians, Arabs and others who do not share these apocalyptic perceptions and aspirations, and feel as much threatened, indeed even more threatened, than we are. There must be many such, probably even a majority in the lands of Islam. Now is the time for them to save their countries, their societies and their religion from the madness of MAD.
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Lewis deserves praise for observing issues calmly and honestly, with historical evidence.
 

palehorse

Lifer
Dec 21, 2005
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Originally posted by: BMW540I6speed
Islam has to fix itself from within. They need a Martin Luther level of reform that transforms the religion "as a whole" into one of peace. Muslims have to want the change or it won't happen and it certainly won't happen overnight. All we can do is promote the personal freedom necessary to achieve it.
very well said... and absolutely correct.

To all: Everything by Bernard Lewis is worth reading if this subject interests you at all...
 

daniel49

Diamond Member
Jan 8, 2005
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Originally posted by: palehorse74
Originally posted by: BMW540I6speed
Islam has to fix itself from within. They need a Martin Luther level of reform that transforms the religion "as a whole" into one of peace. Muslims have to want the change or it won't happen and it certainly won't happen overnight. All we can do is promote the personal freedom necessary to achieve it.
very well said... and absolutely correct.

To all: Everything by Bernard Lewis is worth reading if this subject interests you at all...

It already is a religion of peace haven't you heard?
Darfur is an exellent example where arab Muslims are now spreading the Genocide into eastern Chad.
Who is leading the charge to prevent arab muslums from slaughtering african muslums?
One would think it would be other Muslums of the religion of peace...one would be wrong.
 

palehorse

Lifer
Dec 21, 2005
11,521
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Originally posted by: daniel49
Originally posted by: palehorse74
Originally posted by: BMW540I6speed
Islam has to fix itself from within. They need a Martin Luther level of reform that transforms the religion "as a whole" into one of peace. Muslims have to want the change or it won't happen and it certainly won't happen overnight. All we can do is promote the personal freedom necessary to achieve it.
very well said... and absolutely correct.

To all: Everything by Bernard Lewis is worth reading if this subject interests you at all...

It already is a religion of peace haven't you heard?
Darfur is an exellent example where arab Muslims are now spreading the Genocide into eastern Chad.
Who is leading the charge to prevent arab muslums from slaughtering african muslums?
One would think it would be other Muslums of the religion of peace...one would be wrong.
I'm always saying that the "peaceful" 99.9% of Islam must begin cleaning out the infected fanatical 0.1%, or we will be forced to continue doing it for them. I'd much prefer that they do so themselves, but they are not. So here we are.