Benazir Bhutto dead in suicide bombing

[palehorse]

Originally posted by: rchiu

Originally posted by: palehorse74

Originally posted by: senseamp
Last I checked, she was Muslim too.

...which makes AQ's perversion or their faith, and her murder, all the more despicable.

People can twist any religion to justify anything they want. Hell, some of our own neocons are actively preparing for the Rapture in the middle east

perhaps they are, but AFAIK, they haven't blown up any markets in downtown D.C... yet.

I said this earlier:

As long as you recognize, and remember, that the fanatical element of Islam does not represent the whole, and that the majority of Muslims the world over are peaceful, you must still include the "Islam factor" in any analysis and planning.

While attempting to understand the culture and motivations of our enemies, and the enemies of the peaceful Muslims as well, it would be a deadly mistake to ignore their faith as a factor.

Those of you, like Aimster and Sensecamp, who propose to leave Islam out of the equation entirely, will never be able to make a fully informed plan of action to combat the problem. The faith of our enemies is too important a factor to ignore!

So, as long as one remembers that they do not represent the Muslim majority, it is perfectly acceptable to discuss their being Muslim.

So far the one thing all major news media can agree on is that IT IS NOT KNOWN who was responsible for the assassination. Why do you guys insist on putting the blame on Islam? There are plenty of non Islamic countries that have seen their opposition leaders killed, disappeared, do you guys wanna bash the main religion in those countries too?

We can start talking about the role of religion in this killing if it is confirmed that extremist was involved and their motivation was purely religion. But until then, please leave your anti-Islam rhetorics where it belongs.

Do you have a fvcking reading disorder?! Seriously?!

Nowhere in my post did I "blame Islam" for anything. In fact, I went out of my g'damn way to explain to you nutjobs that it's important to remember that Islamic terrorists do not represent Islam itself!

That said, when studying and confronting the issue, it's also vitally important to study the impact their chosen faith has on their activities! It's one of hundreds of biographical factors that must be included, and considered, in any thorough investigation or analysis.

Don't be so fvcking paranoid... not everyone out here "hates teh evul Moozlims!"

 

[Lemon law]

As the link mayanks098 correctly states, we have what amounts to one phone call from a known Al-Quida name claiming to take responsibility for Bhutto assassination. The point being, that phone call may or may not have been a fake. And may or may not be genuine. If our State department is on the fence on the matter, why should we jump to conclusions.

As I recall, right after 911, the GWB administration was likewise cautious about blaming Al-Quida. And only after looking at the logs of whose was aboard the various planes, and then cross checking known terrorists, was it possible to realize that 911 was definitely an Al-Quida operation. A process of connecting the dots that took many days. Meanwhile Ossama Bin Laden denied responsibility. And it was not until a year or so later that Ossama, in taped conversations, formally admitted Al-Quida done it.

Given that pattern, its somewhat surprising to see Al-Quida admit it so early in the game. And the unbiased should still be open to the possibility that the real perp may have faked that alleged Al-Quida call to drag a red herring to confuse everyone. But in terms of claim cred, JOS was the first to my knowledge to make the claim it was Al-Quida, and another poster cited the AKI link which elevated it to being linked to something more than a total rumor. And as the AKI link states, anyone could have made that phone call claiming to be a
known Al-Quida name.

But late last night, I saw on yahoo news that Bin Laden is releasing another tape concerning Al-Quida in Iraq. Given the transit times it takes to cover the back trail, its unlikely to mention Bhutto, but the other gem is the Al-Quida number two will soon field journalist questions over the internet. I don't have the link handy, but that may shed some light on if
Al-Quida will take formal responsibility for Bhutto's death.

 

[Nitemare]

Pointing the finger from the grave...

http://www.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/...to.security/index.html

 

[Pabster]

Originally posted by: cliftonite
What do you think shoudl be done about this? Should we put an end to Islam because a few of its belivers are terrorists?

Since when does a couple hundred million people encompass "a few"? :roll:

 

[Lemon law]

Originally posted by: Pabster

Originally posted by: cliftonite
What do you think shoudl be done about this? Should we put an end to Islam because a few of its belivers are terrorists?

Since when does a couple hundred million people encompass "a few"? :roll:

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Its time to challenge Pabster's BS. Two hundred million you say. I think you would run out of names after a few hundred at most. Unless you want to try the collective guilt BS we all bear some responsibility for.

Lets see---I am a white male from the USA---therefore I am responsible for the deaths Ted Bundy caused would be an example of the collective guilt Pabster must now rely on to make his case of 200 million.

But the gauntlet is thrown down Pabster---start naming names---how many can you come up with?

 

[Pabster]

Laugh as you wish, Lemon. The reality is that somewhere between 5 and 20 percent of Muslims are Radical Extremists (IE Islamofascists), depending on whose figures you'd like to believe. I average it out and figure 10%. With a total Muslim population at or approaching 2 billion people, that puts the figure around 200 million.

Of course we can't name them all; Most are not well known. But that encompasses everyone from the suicide bomber himself to the old lady down the street hiding him or covering up for him.

You may continue to bury your head in the sand now.

 

[randym431]

We use to do this kind of thing in our country (killing political opponents). Now we just fudge election results. Less violent, same result.

 

[Lemon law]

Originally posted by: Pabster
Laugh as you wish, Lemon. The reality is that somewhere between 5 and 20 percent of Muslims are Radical Extremists (IE Islamofascists), depending on whose figures you'd like to believe. I average it out and figure 10%. With a total Muslim population at or approaching 2 billion people, that puts the figure around 200 million.

Of course we can't name them all; Most are not well known. But that encompasses everyone from the suicide bomber himself to the old lady down the street hiding him or covering up for him.

You may continue to bury your head in the sand now.

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Lets see, in the USA, 50% of the people voted for GWB&co, some ungodly percentage of Christians believe in the creation myth and hence reject science, another 4% are in prison,
another 4% are either Gay or Lesbian, and that and other irrationalities easily adds up to over 100% of the 300 million of us in the USA. Yet somehow we keep extreme beliefs bottled up and so does your 90% of more rational Muslims.

In short Pabster, anytime you have a large group as Muslims are, its easy to make the case they are all wacky, but in fact, they are no more wacky than Christians or Atheists. And the xenophobia you have shown is downright dangerous.

Terrorism is an equal opportunity employer and the only way to reduce it is to foster trust, understanding, and moderate views that defuse tensions. And our so called war on terrorism is doing the opposite and we see more and more terrorism partly driven by xenophobia views such as yours.

You can either think with your brains or think with your emotions. The choice is yours.

 

[Stoneburner]

Originally posted by: Lemon law

Originally posted by: Pabster
Laugh as you wish, Lemon. The reality is that somewhere between 5 and 20 percent of Muslims are Radical Extremists (IE Islamofascists), depending on whose figures you'd like to believe. I average it out and figure 10%. With a total Muslim population at or approaching 2 billion people, that puts the figure around 200 million.

Of course we can't name them all; Most are not well known. But that encompasses everyone from the suicide bomber himself to the old lady down the street hiding him or covering up for him.

You may continue to bury your head in the sand now.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Lets see, in the USA, 50% of the people voted for GWB&co, some ungodly percentage of Christians believe in the creation myth and hence reject science, another 4% are in prison,
another 4% are either Gay or Lesbian, and that and other irrationalities easily adds up to over 100% of the 300 million of us in the USA. Yet somehow we keep extreme beliefs bottled up and so does your 90% of more rational Muslims.

In short Pabster, anytime you have a large group as Muslims are, its easy to make the case they are all wacky, but in fact, they are no more wacky than Christians or Atheists. And the xenophobia you have shown is downright dangerous.

Terrorism is an equal opportunity employer and the only way to reduce it is to foster trust, understanding, and moderate views that defuse tensions. And our so called war on terrorism is doing the opposite and we see more and more terrorism partly driven by xenophobia views such as yours.

You can either think with your brains or think with your emotions. The choice is yours.

BUTHEYWANNAEATHISBABIES!

 

[her209]

Originally posted by: Drift3r

Originally posted by: her209

Originally posted by: JohnOfSheffield
Terrorism cannot breed wildly in order and democracy because the people will oppose it.

Tell that to Emmett Till.

Apples and oranges comparison.

Why? Because the U.S. is neither orderly nor democratic?

 

[betasub]

Originally posted by: Lemon law
Saddam Hussein was somewhat an exception because he had a very efficient police State set up. And Pakistan is especially handicapped because large parts of their military actively sympathizes with the Taliban.

Saddam Hussein's Iraq was different from Pakistan, yes, but not a great exception. Just look at the police states in Syria, Egypt and Libya (amongst others).

 

[Pabster]

Originally posted by: Lemon law
In short Pabster, anytime you have a large group as Muslims are, its easy to make the case they are all wacky, but in fact, they are no more wacky than Christians or Atheists. And the xenophobia you have shown is downright dangerous.

Ah, yes. And I'm sure you can show me where I have made the case that they are all wacky. I said clearly that between 5 and 20 percent are of the radical, extremist variety. A small percentage, yes, but a huge number of people nonetheless.

Terrorism is an equal opportunity employer and the only way to reduce it is to foster trust, understanding, and moderate views that defuse tensions. And our so called war on terrorism is doing the opposite and we see more and more terrorism partly driven by xenophobia views such as yours.

Of course it is. :roll:

Those we are fighting are not equal opportunity employers. They're violent, radical, extremist Muslims. And that's just fact.

 

[Harvey]

Originally posted by: Pabster
Laugh as you wish, Lemon. The reality is that somewhere between 5 and 20 percent of Muslims are Radical Extremists (IE Islamofascists), depending on whose figures you'd like to believe. I average it out and figure 10%. With a total Muslim population at or approaching 2 billion people, that puts the figure around 200 million.

Where do you get your numbers?

 

[GrGr]

Originally posted by: Harvey

Originally posted by: Pabster
Laugh as you wish, Lemon. The reality is that somewhere between 5 and 20 percent of Muslims are Radical Extremists (IE Islamofascists), depending on whose figures you'd like to believe. I average it out and figure 10%. With a total Muslim population at or approaching 2 billion people, that puts the figure around 200 million.

Where do you get your numbers?

And how do you propose to defeat 200 million (if that is an accurate number) of "radical extremists"?

Let's take the economic angle, so far killing say 100,000 "extremists" has cost about 1 trillion dollars. The US cannot afford a 10 trillion dollar war, and 10 trillion will kill about 1 million "radical extremists" unless the US turns to full scale genocide to control the "Arab Street". That leaves the US utterly broke with 199 million radical extremists left to defeat.

 

[UberNeuman]

Originally posted by: GrGr

Originally posted by: Harvey

Originally posted by: Pabster
Laugh as you wish, Lemon. The reality is that somewhere between 5 and 20 percent of Muslims are Radical Extremists (IE Islamofascists), depending on whose figures you'd like to believe. I average it out and figure 10%. With a total Muslim population at or approaching 2 billion people, that puts the figure around 200 million.

Where do you get your numbers?

And how do you propose to defeat 200 million (if that is an accurate number) of "radical extremists"?

Let's take the economic angle, so far killing say 100,000 "extremists" has cost about 1 trillion dollars. The US cannot afford a 10 trillion dollar war, and 10 trillion will kill about 1 million "radical extremists" unless the US turns to full scale genocide to control the "Arab Street". That leaves the US utterly broke with 199 million radical extremists left to defeat.

That's the underlying wish of people such as Pabsmear and his merry little gaggle of internet keyboard troopers - but they'll lack the balls to come out and proclaim it....

 

[CaptnKirk]

Originally posted by: Harvey

Originally posted by: Pabster
Laugh as you wish, Lemon. The reality is that somewhere between 5 and 20 percent of Muslims are Radical Extremists (IE Islamofascists), depending on whose figures you'd like to believe. I average it out and figure 10%. With a total Muslim population at or approaching 2 billion people, that puts the figure around 200 million.

Where do you get your numbers?

Hey Rocky, watch me pull a rabbit out of my ass . . . .

 

[Harvey]

Originally posted by: CaptnKirk
Hey Rocky, watch me pull a rabbit out of my ass . . . .

Oh, BullShinkle... Not that old trick, again... :laugh:

 

[JohnOfSheffield]

Originally posted by: compuwiz1

Originally posted by: JohnOfSheffield

Originally posted by: compuwiz1

Originally posted by: JohnOfSheffield

Originally posted by: GrGr

Originally posted by: JohnOfSheffield

Originally posted by: Lemon law

Originally posted by: JohnOfSheffield
Al Quaida has taken responsibility for her death.

As if anyone expected anyone else to have done it that style.

This isn't going too well.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

To JOS,

Do you have any link to that claim? I have been trolling various new source and see no evidence of your claim. Which does not disprove what you are saying, but in times like this
rumors can be just as valid as facts for starting mobs moving

I don't really know how to respond to that, now i wish i hadn't mentioned it at all.

Source from Pakistan claims AQ did it

Thank you. *wipes sweat from forehead and vows never to say anything like that again until i read it in the news*

From news site:

?We terminated the most precious American asset which vowed to defeat [the] mujahadeen,? Al-Qaeda?s commander and main spokesperson Mustafa Abu Al-Yazid told Adnkronos International (AKI) in a phone call from an unknown location, speaking in faltering English. Al-Yazid is the main al-Qaeda commander in Afghanistan."

And what religion is Al-Qaeda based on again? To those who were saying keep Islam and Muslims out of this, all I can is stop this bullshit. You know the truth, or is this denial in it's purest form?

You know, i think i'm wildly different from most people, i don't hate Muslims, i don't hate Al Quaida because they claim to be Muslims either, i hate them because of their actions, if they were Hindu's or Buddhists or Evangelicals i'd hate them just as much but i still wouldn't blame Hindu's or Buddhists or Evangelicals for their crimes.

This black and white us vs them has to be applied to us vs the terrorists, not us vs Muslims or i don't want any part of either side.

Right... I see your point. I don't hate because of their religion, but I do hate what they have done. I am speaking of the extremists, obviously, not the peaceful, law abiding citizens, who happen to be Muslim. Still, denying certain factions of Islam / Muslims is part of the equation, is just going through life partially blind.

No one is denying shit let's call them what they are, fundamentalists, they were Hindus responsible for more acts of terror before the US invasion of Irak, now they are Muslim, and frankly my dear, i don't give a damn what faith they adhere to, i just put a bullet in them to be done with it.

Terrorism is one thing, faith is another, fights of faith we are familiar with here in England, i won't tell you how well aware of that i am because you'd just use that against future claims, but the truth is, religion does not matter at all.

You can go on blaming "other religions" if that makes you happy, to me, the enemy is the enemy no matter what he believes in.

 

[JohnOfSheffield]

Originally posted by: palehorse74

Originally posted by: JohnOfSheffield

Originally posted by: Lemon law

Originally posted by: JohnOfSheffield
Al Quaida has taken responsibility for her death.

As if anyone expected anyone else to have done it that style.

This isn't going too well.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

To JOS,

Do you have any link to that claim? I have been trolling various new source and see no evidence of your claim. Which does not disprove what you are saying, but in times like this
rumors can be just as valid as facts for starting mobs moving

I don't really know how to respond to that, now i wish i hadn't mentioned it at all.

LOL...

Yeah, you LOL, you know what it's like to report shit and then think..."wait, is this to become public knowledge"...

God i wish i had my head screwed on straight all the time, don't we all.

 

[palehorse]

Originally posted by: JohnOfSheffield

Originally posted by: palehorse74

Originally posted by: JohnOfSheffield

Originally posted by: Lemon law

Originally posted by: JohnOfSheffield
Al Quaida has taken responsibility for her death.

As if anyone expected anyone else to have done it that style.

This isn't going too well.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

To JOS,

Do you have any link to that claim? I have been trolling various new source and see no evidence of your claim. Which does not disprove what you are saying, but in times like this
rumors can be just as valid as facts for starting mobs moving

I don't really know how to respond to that, now i wish i hadn't mentioned it at all.

LOL...

Yeah, you LOL, you know what it's like to report shit and then think..."wait, is this to become public knowledge"...

God i wish i had my head screwed on straight all the time, don't we all.

Why do you think I LOL'd?!

been there...

 

[Drift3r]

Originally posted by: her209

Originally posted by: Drift3r

Originally posted by: her209

Originally posted by: JohnOfSheffield
Terrorism cannot breed wildly in order and democracy because the people will oppose it.

Tell that to Emmett Till.

Apples and oranges comparison.

Why? Because the U.S. is neither orderly nor democratic?

That was a crime. A criminal act committed by individual racists which is way different then an actual terrorist network and or group. Did we have to carpet bomb white suburbs in the States to get rid of white supremacists?

 

[Rainsford]

Originally posted by: palehorse74
...
Do you have a fvcking reading disorder?! Seriously?!

Nowhere in my post did I "blame Islam" for anything. In fact, I went out of my g'damn way to explain to you nutjobs that it's important to remember that Islamic terrorists do not represent Islam itself!

That said, when studying and confronting the issue, it's also vitally important to study the impact their chosen faith has on their activities! It's one of hundreds of biographical factors that must be included, and considered, in any thorough investigation or analysis.

Don't be so fvcking paranoid... not everyone out here "hates teh evul Moozlims!"

Yeah, but enough people DO hate Muslims for it to be a serious concern, and not one you can just ignore by saying "well, *I* don't hate Muslims".

Of course religion is a valid piece of background information when considering the motives and actions of a terrorist, but most people aren't intelligence analysts, the way THEY look at it is "Islam made them be a terrorist, so Islam is BAD!". Please don't tell me you think that attitude isn't a problem.

 

[palehorse]

Originally posted by: Rainsford

Originally posted by: palehorse74
...
Do you have a fvcking reading disorder?! Seriously?!

Nowhere in my post did I "blame Islam" for anything. In fact, I went out of my g'damn way to explain to you nutjobs that it's important to remember that Islamic terrorists do not represent Islam itself!

That said, when studying and confronting the issue, it's also vitally important to study the impact their chosen faith has on their activities! It's one of hundreds of biographical factors that must be included, and considered, in any thorough investigation or analysis.

Don't be so fvcking paranoid... not everyone out here "hates teh evul Moozlims!"

Yeah, but enough people DO hate Muslims for it to be a serious concern, and not one you can just ignore by saying "well, *I* don't hate Muslims".

Of course religion is a valid piece of background information when considering the motives and actions of a terrorist, but most people aren't intelligence analysts, the way THEY look at it is "Islam made them be a terrorist, so Islam is BAD!". Please don't tell me you think that attitude isn't a problem.

yes, it's a problem.

 

[Lemon law]

For once I agree with palehorse74 when he says people in the US who blame Islam for terrorism is creating a huge problem for our military.

In fact we just had a cite of a Pakistani poll that shows most Pakistanis believe that much of the US occupation is in fact a war on Islam.

Despite GWB assurances to the contrary few believe, it still goes back to an emotion being as valid as a fact. And given the torture and other factors, I can see why many see
it that way. Collective guilt cuts both ways.

 

[Nitemare]

Police were covering up the cause of death now...

http://www.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/...tan.autopsy/index.html