Ben Stein Accuses Ron Paul of Anti-Semitism on Larry King

Zebo

Elite Member
Jul 29, 2001
39,398
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I like Ron Paul but his statements about Islam and WOT are incredibly naive.

Flight 253 jihadist from his personal blog:

"I imagine how the great jihad will take place, how the muslims will win (Allah willing) and rule the whole world and establish the greatest empire once again"


And we support Israel because it's right after being murdered and run out of every European, Muslim, Asian country for centuries to have their ancestral home.
 

Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
38,548
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I don't like Ben Stein. He gave a speech in early 2008 with his economic views - that the economy was great and the people who had cautions were deserving of mockery, because this is a great country.

Did he ever take any responsibility for being so wrong? Hardly.

After the crash, he was a guest on Dr. Phil as an expert advisor on dealing with the crash.

Comcast paying him as a spokesman gives me one more reason to look as Dish TV.

He was a speechwriter for Nixon, and has long been a right-wing apologist.
 
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Oct 27, 2007
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Oh look, two of the least relevant American celebrities who have been propped up by loyal but misguided and ultimately below average fans are having a cat fight. How cute.
 

Vic

Elite Member
Jun 12, 2001
50,422
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I like Ron Paul but his statements about Islam and WOT are incredibly naive.

Flight 253 jihadist from his personal blog:

"I imagine how the great jihad will take place, how the muslims will win (Allah willing) and rule the whole world and establish the greatest empire once again"


And we support Israel because it's right after being murdered and run out of every European, Muslim, Asian country for centuries to have their ancestral home.

Just imagine what we might find in Pat Robertson's personal diary! :rolleyes:

BTW, do you also support giving back the Native Americans the American continent? WTF is this commie nonsense about ancestral homes? There is not a tribe on this planet that has not been conquered and run out of its homeland, mine (Celtic) and I'll bet yours included.
 

Zebo

Elite Member
Jul 29, 2001
39,398
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We have Indian nations, about 500 of them. Think of Israel as a reservation after being slaughtered everywhere.

Re Flight 253 jihadist: Paul said he did attack because we attacked Yemen. I just quoted the guy's real thoughts.
 

First

Lifer
Jun 3, 2002
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The "they're occupying us" argument is totally overblown, overly simplistic, widely discredited, and just frankly naive. Americans and Israelis (as just two examples) have clearly been terrorized by extremists in the ME. To say that because the U.S. or Israel has made mistakes in dealing with the ME (be it Palestinians, Iraqis or Afghans) that there is an equivilence in the magnitudes of the complaints is ludicrous and easily demonstratable in the following way; how often do you see Americans flying over to Iraq and Afghanistan to commit suicide bombings (in the name of a religion) specifically to kill innocent women and children? How often do you see Israelis flying over to the Palestine territories to suicide bomb women and children? The answer is that it has, literally, never happened. This is quite unlike Muslim fundamentalists.
 
Oct 27, 2007
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The "they're occupying us" argument is totally overblown, overly simplistic, widely discredited, and just frankly naive. Americans and Israelis (as just two examples) have clearly been terrorized by extremists in the ME. To say that because the U.S. or Israel has made mistakes in dealing with the ME (be it Palestinians, Iraqis or Afghans) that there is an equivilence in the magnitudes of the complaints is ludicrous and easily demonstratable in the following way; how often do you see Americans flying over to Iraq and Afghanistan to commit suicide bombings (in the name of a religion) specifically to kill innocent women and children? How often do you see Israelis flying over to the Palestine territories to suicide bomb women and children? The answer is that it has, literally, never happened. This is quite unlike Muslim fundamentalists.
Americans are responsible for the deaths of more innocent Middle Easterners than any terrorist could ever dream of killing.
 

Craig234

Lifer
May 1, 2006
38,548
350
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The point flew well over your head. Read it again.

You have that backwards.

Your argument is that the west's century-long aggression in the Middle East is outweighed by one radical group killing 3,000 westerners one day and some smaller isolated attacks?

It's the old "our military's armaments killing masses of you is ok , but you beheading 10 people is a crime against humanity" type argument.
 

JEDIYoda

Lifer
Jul 13, 2005
33,986
3,321
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Oh look, two of the least relevant American celebrities who have been propped up by loyal but misguided and ultimately below average fans are having a cat fight. How cute.

so I guess that applies to you...loyal and misguided and below average...lol

Gotta love yourt blanket statements that bear no semblence of fact!
 

Dari

Lifer
Oct 25, 2002
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knee-jerk reaction after Ron Paul used the word 'occupier'. Stein is stupid.
 

Rainsford

Lifer
Apr 25, 2001
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The "they're occupying us" argument is totally overblown, overly simplistic, widely discredited, and just frankly naive. Americans and Israelis (as just two examples) have clearly been terrorized by extremists in the ME. To say that because the U.S. or Israel has made mistakes in dealing with the ME (be it Palestinians, Iraqis or Afghans) that there is an equivilence in the magnitudes of the complaints is ludicrous and easily demonstratable in the following way; how often do you see Americans flying over to Iraq and Afghanistan to commit suicide bombings (in the name of a religion) specifically to kill innocent women and children? How often do you see Israelis flying over to the Palestine territories to suicide bomb women and children? The answer is that it has, literally, never happened. This is quite unlike Muslim fundamentalists.

It's hard to argue that the negative effect Western countries have on the Middle East isn't far greater than whatever damage Islamic terrorists have been able to inflict on the West. You're arguing that intent mattes, and I'd agree, but not to the point where you can totally dismiss Western actions in the ME as "making mistakes".

While I'd agree that trying to draw a moral equivalence between intentionally targeting innocent people and harming them by accident is "overly simplistic", I'd also argue that your point is pretty naive as well. If you want to demonstrate that Western actions are "good", or at least easily dismissed, you need to do more than show that the terrorists are worse. In the world outside of junior high debate class, more than one side in a conflict can be in the wrong, especially because outside of that class, most conflicts have more than two sides.

The mechanic in Iraq who's house we accidentally blew up, and who's son we arrested and held without trial for several years because we thought he might be a bad guy, probably isn't going to be comforted by an argument that at least we don't intentionally target innocent people. He might agree that the terrorists are worse, but we're probably not going to win his heart or mind anytime soon...and the more first-hand negative experience he has with Americans, the less convincing third-person stories about terrorists are going to be.

Hamas enjoys popular support with Palestinians, while Israelis are vilified, for one basic reason. To a Palestinian, Hamas is the group that builds schools and provides medical care and food, while the Israelis are the people who blow up apartment buildings to get bad guys. An argument about Hamas being morally worse than the Israelis is convincing in the abstract, but in the real world, it's hard to sell that to the Palestinians.

The fact is that America has a horrendously low level of popularity in the Muslim world, and it can't be explained by branding EVERYONE there a terrorist. Our popular support isn't justification for terrorism, obviously, but the eventual solution to the conflict between the ME and the west will HAVE to come from improving relations between the two sides. And a big step forward there would be not setting the behavior of murders and terrorists as the moral baseline.
 

ahenkel

Diamond Member
Jan 11, 2009
5,357
3
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Oh gee Stein pulled out the Anti Semite card. What a shock

I just watched his "documentary" Expelled and basically he came to the conclusion that Darwinism(his term basically to turn evolution into a ideology like Marxism) was responsible for the Nazi's because the discredited pseudoscience of eugenics equals what Darwin believed.
 

First

Lifer
Jun 3, 2002
10,518
271
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It's hard to argue that the negative effect Western countries have on the Middle East isn't far greater than whatever damage Islamic terrorists have been able to inflict on the West. You're arguing that intent mattes, and I'd agree, but not to the point where you can totally dismiss Western actions in the ME as "making mistakes".

While I'd agree that trying to draw a moral equivalence between intentionally targeting innocent people and harming them by accident is "overly simplistic", I'd also argue that your point is pretty naive as well. If you want to demonstrate that Western actions are "good", or at least easily dismissed, you need to do more than show that the terrorists are worse. In the world outside of junior high debate class, more than one side in a conflict can be in the wrong, especially because outside of that class, most conflicts have more than two sides.

The mechanic in Iraq who's house we accidentally blew up, and who's son we arrested and held without trial for several years because we thought he might be a bad guy, probably isn't going to be comforted by an argument that at least we don't intentionally target innocent people. He might agree that the terrorists are worse, but we're probably not going to win his heart or mind anytime soon...and the more first-hand negative experience he has with Americans, the less convincing third-person stories about terrorists are going to be.

Hamas enjoys popular support with Palestinians, while Israelis are vilified, for one basic reason. To a Palestinian, Hamas is the group that builds schools and provides medical care and food, while the Israelis are the people who blow up apartment buildings to get bad guys. An argument about Hamas being morally worse than the Israelis is convincing in the abstract, but in the real world, it's hard to sell that to the Palestinians.

The fact is that America has a horrendously low level of popularity in the Muslim world, and it can't be explained by branding EVERYONE there a terrorist. Our popular support isn't justification for terrorism, obviously, but the eventual solution to the conflict between the ME and the west will HAVE to come from improving relations between the two sides. And a big step forward there would be not setting the behavior of murders and terrorists as the moral baseline.

Motive is almost literally the entire point, to dismiss intent off hand is pretty funny and not really all that worthy of discussing. The weight that should be given to it is self-explanatory. Otherwise why does anyone, anywhere, get prosecuted for attempted manslaughter or murder, to waste time?

But from here, it's still pretty easy to see why virtually nothing can be done about a ME citizen that has no way of informing themselves about history when they don't live in areas with schools or a basic rule of law. What's hypocritical is that the same people against the U.S. occupying these ME countries will readily acknowledge their lack of schools and basic infrastructure, but would rather pull out and not nation build because it isn't worth it as if the two concepts can be reconciled. To say we can't afford it is one thing (which I would agree with is a good argument), but the problem with that is it's a recent argument that by itself isn't compelling (since it wouldn't actually bankrupt us, for one). Anti-war guys, and pacifists and what have you, don't use that line of reasoning enough anyway to matter.

What we know for a fact is that these ME children are literally told lies about what these wars are about, what the U.S.' intentions actually are. They are literally told that the U.S. is actively targeting women and children. We know that despite any pullout from the ME, the U.S. (and Israel) would continue to be blamed for past transgressions in either case or blamed for the transgressions of other countries we have no control over, but are connected with via strategic alliances and would therefore be lumped in with (Britain). What's naive is thinking, above all else, that things would be better if the U.S. suddenly pulled out of Afghanistan and Iraq, ignoring that the U.S. wasn't actually occupying the ME for at least 10 years prior to 9/11, unless you consider the presence of embassies a good reason to kill 3000 innocent civilians (and btw, U.S. embassies are bombed frequently yet their crimes are what, exactly?).

According to these terrorists it's because of past transgressions from previous decades, or it's because of isolated incidents around the world from recent times, that the U.S. should be attacked. People actually still argue that because we helped train the Afghans (mujaheddin) defeat the USSR in the 80's, that we are responsible for 9/11 because, uh, we trained them so they wouldn't be murdered in their homes? I mean that is literally the type of drivel you hear from people who just don't get it.

The whole idea of not occupying another country is sound in the sense that there is consider collateral damage that will inevitably occur and inevitably lead to disgruntled persons. And I agree with this wholeheartedly from the vantage point of not wanting to inflame a populace with little means of educating themselves. The problem with using that as the crux of your argument is that terrorists use any excuse to attack a foreign country, because the crux of their argument rests on the poor, uneducated ME citizen not realizing that his extremist Imam is advocating an immorally equivalent retaliation against the U.S. (Britain, whoever) using the supposed "same" tactics and reasoning as the enemy. They use the non-intervention of foreign countries as a reason to attack. This is all well documented, and it's why 9/11 was predictable despite the 90's being one of the least ME occupation-laden decades of the century. Nothing like the 80's in Afghanistan, and certainly nothing like anything previous to that. You still have terrorists referring to the U.K.-backed setup of the state of Israel 60+ years ago as a reason to attack both the U.K. and U.S. (because they were and still are allied with both).

Again, there's just no credibility to the argument that not occupying the ME would simply solve the problem or even significantly improve things. These guys don't actually desire peace, that's why they kill innocent people to begin with. It's beyond naive to think that these terrorists wouldn't simply use our alliance with Israel or all our past combined transgressions for decades to come as justifications for attack on the U.S. and our allies. At which point you have to ask yourself; is it better to stay out of there completely and simply let innocent people die when you know you can stop it? Should we have just let millions of Africans die over the past decade instead of steaming the tide of that slaughter? Should we let the ME go without basic infrastructure or basic schools when both have proven successful in Iraq and Iran? Pulling out totally and completely from the ME does nothing to solve these problems. It merely delays the problem into the future. Not being proactive cost the U.S. dearly on 12/7/41, as delayed involvement in WWII merely gave Italy, Germany and Japan more time to collect themselves. It costs Jews in Germany and Poland even more dearly.
 
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Mani

Diamond Member
Aug 9, 2001
4,808
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Ben Stein is a twat, and I'm starting to warm up to RP's views. The guy has his heart in the right place - question is whether his vision for America is a pipe dream.
 

Hacp

Lifer
Jun 8, 2005
13,923
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Lets leave the Israelis alone. Let them pay for their own defense. We have enough on our hands, trillions went to national security and the Obama Administration still can't stop a guy with a syringe hidden in his underwear.
 

Rainsford

Lifer
Apr 25, 2001
17,515
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Motive is almost literally the entire point, to dismiss intent off hand is pretty funny and not really all that worthy of discussing. The weight that should be given to it is self-explanatory. Otherwise why does anyone, anywhere, get prosecuted for attempted manslaughter or murder, to waste time?
...

Let me just stop you right there, because your legal analogy makes pretty much the point I was trying to make. At least in the United States, if you kill someone, "I didn't MEAN to" does not get you off the hook completely. Involuntary manslaughter (killing without intent) is still a crime, although a lesser one than murder. If motive was the entire point, only murder would be a crime.

If you read my last post carefully (or at all, really), you might notice I didn't say intent should be dismissed, in fact I said quite the opposite several times. But the effect of a person or nations actions is important TOO. Our negative impact on the Middle East doesn't become positive just because we didn't have evil intent at the onset.

The real problem is that we're treating the conflict there as an incomplete choice for the people there. In order to gain popular support and eventually reach peace in the region, we need something more than showing how the radicals are worse, and then claiming the good guy position by default. The obvious third alternative, which I suspect many people choose, is to reject both the West and the radicals, and attempt to improve things themselves.

Edit: Basically the root of my argument is something I said in my previous post. Our popular support in the ME is horrible, and it doesn't seem reasonable to me that everyone who doesn't like us there (which is around 90% of the population for a lot of countries) holds that opinion because they are violent radicals.
 

Zargon

Lifer
Nov 3, 2009
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Also dont forget to keep ignoring that the ME has been a bloodbath FOREVER, with out without the US or the crusades they have been murdering each other there since history begain.