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"Begging the Question," Stupidity Has Won

Perknose

Forum Director & Omnipotent Overlord
Forum Director
In the midst of this overall interesting article on the ongoing devolution of the English language, the author confirms the sad news that I have repeatedly observed of late: The original meaning of "begging the question" has been lost to the ignorant hordes.

Ah, well!

Is it literally too late to stop the drift?

BEN YAGODA has a slightly silly but thought-provoking essay at Slate in which he proposes a two-part scale for determining which words (and phrases) we should try to stop from changing their meanings fundamentally. The usual suspects are familiar: nonplussed, presently, decimate, beg the question, fulsome and disinterested are now all used to mean something quite different from what they once meant. Mr Yagoda accepts that language changes, but some shifts may do more damage than others, and so proposes a two-part test for which changes to arrest: 1) how far along is the change?, and 2) how irreplaceable is the word undergoing the shift? If his math is a little unserious (he just multiplies his two factors), and his data a little dodgy (he simply uses the first 20 Google-search results for his usage corpus), the two questions are pretty good ones.

The first question can, in theory, be answered with a little finer tools than Mr Yagoda's. For example the Google N-Gram Viewer shows that "data" is still used as a plural in most books (works carefully and slowly written and edited). The red line below is the frequency of "the data are", and the blue is the frequency of "the data is."

data.png


But "data" is more likely to be singular on the internet as a whole: "the data is" returns 260m pages as a Google Search, "the data are" just 78m. So the vox populi is slowly completing the shift, but we still have an open case in which most careful writers will want to stick with plural data.
What about Mr Yagoda's second question, the "utility rating" of the sense of the word being lost? This obviously doesn't lend itself to easy math. Mr Yagoda gives a 0 to 3 score: "the lion's share" is a cliché he doesn't mind losing, and so gets a 0. "Disinterested" is very interesting to him, so he gives it the maximum 3. I use "disinterested" the way he does, but I don't think it's irreplaceable: "impartial" means nearly the same thing, only with a different etymology ("of no party" rather than "not having a stake"). He wants to keep "to beg the question" to mean "to assume the conclusion". I do too, but unfortunately his Google data show what we all know. Nearly nobody uses it that way any more.

I'm surprised one popular peeve item didn't make his list: "literally". If the storehouse of traditional vocabulary were fire and I could only save a few items, it'd be one of the ones I'd grab on my way out of the building. "Literally" literally has no neat replacement that I know of; if I try to imagine myself replacing it in a sentence, I only imagine myself saying it louder and more insistently.

Me: It was literally miles away.
Interlocutor: [unimpressed] Hm, really?
Me: No, I mean it was literally miles away. We walked forever. Not literally forever, mind you...

When used properly (as in my attempted joke here), "literally" can pack an irreplaceable punch. And while I can't think of how to tabulate it exactly, my sense is that plenty of people still use "literally" to mean "not figuratively", as I do. The fight isn't over yet on literally, as I suspect it is for "beg the question". So I'm for saving the ones we can. I might literally fight this one to my dying day.
"Language drift" is inevitable and has been going on as long as established languages have stood, this is true.

Still . . . the acceleration of the debasement of the English language from what I see as the twin factors of idiot internet usage and English's present status as the world's lingua franca effing well annoys me.

To paraphrase Mr. Berra, "Can't nobody here speak this language?" 😛

Especially, the devolution of the noble and formerly clearly understood phrase "begging the question" by the ignorant and unwashed into meaning, "asking the question" is, literally (<---- Per the article, see I how just correctly used this word?), a triumph of rank, know-nothing, stupidity.

Fie on you arrant knaves! :biggrin:

Get off my language lawn! 😛
 
The way idiots use "literally" literally annoys the shit out of me.

That's right. I am so annoyed that shit starts seeping from my rectum.
 
Sadly, I have literally never in my life heard anyone correctly use the phrase "beg[ging/s] the question" except in the context of explaining what it means. And I'm using the traditional definition of literally here, which literally means "literally" and not something short of that.
 
The way idiots use "literally" literally annoys the shit out of me.

That's right. I am so annoyed that shit starts seeping from my rectum.

That's not unusual for you...when you're happy, shit seeps from your rectum...when you're bored, shit seeps from your rectum...

Personally, I think it's the result of spending so many weekends in Oldsmoboat's basement...
 

^^^ A classic symptom of this ongoing disease. Smug ignorance smugly choosing not only to remain ignorant, but to smugly advertise it, combined with and fueled by the attention span of a newt.*








With my sincere apologies to newts. 😛
 
That's not unusual for you...when you're happy, shit seeps from your rectum...when you're bored, shit seeps from your rectum...

Personally, I think it's the result of spending so many weekends in Oldsmoboat's basement...

You might be on to something....
 
Sadly, I have literally never in my life heard anyone correctly use the phrase "beg[ging/s] the question" except in the context of explaining what it means. And I'm using the traditional definition of literally here, which literally means "literally" and not something short of that.

I could figuratively kiss you on the lips right now. 😛
 
^^^ A classic symptom of this ongoing disease. Smug ignorance smugly choosing not only to remain ignorant, but to smugly advertise it, combined with and fueled by the attention span of a newt.*

With my sincere apologies to newts. 😛


See...that was teh hole poynt...

newt-gingrich.jpg


Newt gives Perk the finger...
 
That's not unusual for you...when you're happy, shit seeps from your rectum...when you're bored, shit seeps from your rectum...

Personally, I think it's the result of spending so many weekends in Oldsmoboat's basement...

Wow, with the close quarters in olds basement that could be a real problem for a tl:dr mouth breather like yourself, n'est-ce pas? 😛 :biggrin:
 
"The committee is comprised of 12 people" is wrong!

Should be "The committee comprises 12 people" or "The committee is composed of 12 people."

That one sort of bothers me, maybe because a lot of people do it and it's turning the word "comprise" into a synonym for "compose" when there's no need. "Could of," "would of," etc. are annoying as well, but I think more people realize those are wrong.

And don't even get me started on people who put two spaces after a period. It is wrong!! And it's not debatable, it's just flat wrong!
 
In other news, Cantonese and Japanese speakers want Mandarin speakers to stop using &#39135; and &#39154; as nouns. Similarly, Mandarin speakers want Cantonese and Japanese speakers to stop using them as verbs!
 
I disagree on 'begging the question'. While that is a phrase which has a specific meaning (that I only found out about now), it's literal meaning makes sense in the way it's currently used. To say that 'begging the question' does not mean what's trying to be communicated is incorrect. Someone without prior knowledge of either usage would interpret the phrase as it's currently used (or misused, depending on who you're talking to).

It would be akin to me objecting to the usage of the phrase 'high as a kite' in reference to something that is in the air at the approximate height a kite would fly, because the phrase actually refers to being very intoxicated.

The usage of literally is a completely different story, since you're using the word to mean the opposite of its true meaning.
 
I disagree on 'begging the question'. While that is a phrase which has a specific meaning (that I only found out about now), it's literal meaning makes sense in the way it's currently used. To say that 'begging the question' does not mean what's trying to be communicated is incorrect. Someone without prior knowledge of either usage would interpret the phrase as it's currently used (or misused, depending on who you're talking to).

It would be akin to me objecting to the usage of the phrase 'high as a kite' in reference to something that is in the air at the approximate height a kite would fly, because the phrase actually refers to being very intoxicated.

The usage of literally is a completely different story, since you're using the word to mean the opposite of its true meaning.

Agree on the "begging the question" part. I never had the phrase explained to me growing up so I always just assumed it meant the same as "raising the question." As in, "This man has gotten 10 DUIs. This situation begs for a question to be asked, and that question is, 'why is he still driving?'"
 
What does "the lion's share" mean, properly used? I thought it essentially meant 'the vast majority' or something like that...
 
I disagree on 'begging the question'. While that is a phrase which has a specific meaning (that I only found out about now), it's literal meaning makes sense in the way it's currently used. To say that 'begging the question' does not mean what's trying to be communicated is incorrect. Someone without prior knowledge of either usage would interpret the phrase as it's currently used (or misused, depending on who you're talking to).

It would be akin to me objecting to the usage of the phrase 'high as a kite' in reference to something that is in the air at the approximate height a kite would fly, because the phrase actually refers to being very intoxicated.

That is because you are using the word begging wrong as well. Begging in this instance means, 'dodge, avoid answering, or take for granted'. I can't even come up with what definition of begging you are using to make your version of that phrase work. I guess it would have to be 'begging for a question' but that is not even close to the phrase.

Agree on the "begging the question" part. I never had the phrase explained to me growing up so I always just assumed it meant the same as "raising the question."

Complete failure of our school systems. Logic and debate needs to be taught.
 
In other news, Cantonese and Japanese speakers want Mandarin speakers to stop using &#39135; and &#39154; as nouns. Similarly, Mandarin speakers want Cantonese and Japanese speakers to stop using them as verbs!

I am presently nonplussed and yet decimated by the fulsomeness of my disinterest in this information.

This begs the question, "Why did you post this?" :whiste:
 
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