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davmat787

Diamond Member
Nov 30, 2010
5,514
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That guy is so fat he couldn't even possibly shoot using a proper Weaver stance, and so lazy he needs a fully automatic handgun. Sheesh.

Now to be on topic: I did not read the full text in the OP's link, but after several paragraphs I doubted it was written by a teacher. Can't point to any exact sentence that made me feel that way, it just did.

Anyway, culture change often needs to come from within. External pressure is viewed as negative. I had hoped Obama could do something in this regard, but then again folks like Cosby who has attempted to even broach the subject is viewed as an Uncle Tom sellout.

Since it is virtually impossible right now to have an open and honest discussion among those who have influence, what are the odds for any thing to change?

What are three realistic things the black community would like to see changed that would allow or provide a positive impact? Seriously, what are some examples of programs or laws that could provide a positive impact?
 
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Doppel

Lifer
Feb 5, 2011
13,313
2
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I laughed while reading this because it's so over the top. I have no idea how accurate it is, honestly none at all. It could be very truthful, it could be entirely made up. I, like I suspect the majority of the people in this thread, have never spent much or any time at a predominantly black school so I truly have no idea what they are like.

EDIT: as I read more I assume the guy was trolling, some of the questions he asked his kids seem just there to illicit a stereotypical answer so I cannot really be sure they were asked, for all I know the guy made up the entire thing just to post on various websites.
 
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Jun 26, 2007
11,925
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That guy is so fat he couldn't even possibly shoot using a proper Weaver stance, and so lazy he needs a fully automatic handgun. Sheesh.

Now to be on topic: I did not read the full text in the OP's link, but after several paragraphs I doubted it was written by a teacher. Can't point to any exact sentence that made me feel that way, it just did.

Anyway, culture change often needs to come from within. External pressure is viewed as negative. I had hoped Obama could do something in this regard, but then again folks like Cosby who has attempted to even broach the subject is viewed as an Uncle Tom sellout.

Since it is virtually impossible right now to have an open and honest discussion among those who have influence, what are the odds for any thing to change?

What are three realistic things the black community would like to see changed that would allow or provide a positive impact? Seriously, what are some examples of programs or laws that could provide a positive impact?
There is a lot of truth to that too, when the role models are arseholes what will become of their fans?

The whole fucking thing is like we have with our Asians (and before anyone jumps on me screaming, in the UK Asians are indians and pakis, SE asians, everyone oriental is Chinese) who have arseholes as rolemodels and are doing their best to emulate them. That generalisation isn't true for everyone but for a great majority it is.
 
Jun 26, 2007
11,925
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I laughed while reading this because it's so over the top. I have no idea how accurate it is, honestly none at all. It could be very truthful, it could be entirely made up. I, like I suspect the majority of the people in this thread, have never spent much or any time at a predominantly black school so I truly have no idea what they are like.
It's as true as a summer snowstorm in Spain i tells ya.
 

woolfe9998

Lifer
Apr 8, 2013
12,562
7,437
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I laughed while reading this because it's so over the top. I have no idea how accurate it is, honestly none at all. It could be very truthful, it could be entirely made up. I, like I suspect the majority of the people in this thread, have never spent much or any time at a predominantly black school so I truly have no idea what they are like.

EDIT: as I read more I assume the guy was trolling, some of the questions he asked his kids seem just there to illicit a stereotypical answer so I cannot really be sure they were asked, for all I know the guy made up the entire thing just to post on various websites.
Where I went to high school, it was majority white but 25-30% were black kids bused in from the local suburban ghetto. These were not assimilated blacks but rather more in the vein of what that article describes. The movie "Dangerous Minds" (Michelle Pffeifer) was based on a book by a teacher recounting her experience at my school, several years after I graduated.

I would say that there are obvious superficial cultural differences that the author clearly despises - differences in dialect, dress, musical preference and many other aspects of overt but relatively harmless behavior. I'd also say that the author's obsession with painting these differences in the most negative light possible is the first red flag about the article.

Other observations of mine are similar but on a lesser scale than what is described. Certainly these kids did poorer in their classes than did the white kids, with exceptions of course. Violence? Not very common. There was one serious black on black fight (girls, actually) in my 4 years there. No interracial violence during that period of time.

What I really had a problem with in this article is the author basically shooting down any attempt to try different strategies to achieve better outcomes. Coupled with the passing reference to the Bell Curve, it's reasonably clear that the author puts these problems down to genetics, which is why he maligns any attempt to improve the situation and offers no alternatives.
 
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jman19

Lifer
Nov 3, 2000
11,161
570
126
Racist, generalizing junk about an extremely impoverished part of the country.

Says a lot about the OP...
 

Munky

Diamond Member
Feb 5, 2005
9,379
0
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And the political correctness drones come out in full force. Hell, you don't even have to go to a black school - ride the bus or a train in any typical city, and as soon as a group of 5 or more blacks get on, the noise levels increase by at least double. But don't let inconvenient facts get in the way of feel good dogma.
 

thraashman

Lifer
Apr 10, 2000
10,911
1,063
126
When you find that the prime group that agrees with your view is stormfront, you should reconsider that perhaps you're the problem.
 

Dari

Lifer
Oct 25, 2002
17,136
37
91
And the political correctness drones come out in full force. Hell, you don't even have to go to a black school - ride the bus or a train in any typical city, and as soon as a group of 5 or more blacks get on, the noise levels increase by at least double. But don't let inconvenient facts get in the way of feel good dogma.
Not true. It can be 5 of more of anyone. But it happens a lot with teenagers.
 

davmat787

Diamond Member
Nov 30, 2010
5,514
24
76
When you find that the prime group that agrees with your view is stormfront, you should reconsider that perhaps you're the problem.
Forget the article in the OP, the problem is the disparity in educational outcomes and expectations. The statistics are easily found.

What are some things you (or anyone else, I've asked before) would do if you were president for a day? Like I said earlier, it seems like cultural change has to come from within that culture, outside attempts are viewed as attacks and/or racist. Hell, even inside attempts are sometimes viewed as attacks, look what happened to Cosby for broaching the subject with truth.

It is not a comfortable subject to talk about, but if even attempts to discuss it with facts (again, ignoring the article in the OP) are viewed as attacks or racist, what to do? Obama, as the second black President (I've been told Clinton was the first, must of been his 'sax) has missed a golden opportunity to help "his" people by at least starting a conversation.

I guess all those chants of hope and change were for something else, because change has to begin within, and that person or culture has to WANT to change. Hell, you have to first admit there IS a problem if you want to fix it. And no, I am not an AA counselor, nor been through that program. :colbert:
 
Jun 26, 2007
11,925
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And the political correctness drones come out in full force. Hell, you don't even have to go to a black school - ride the bus or a train in any typical city, and as soon as a group of 5 or more blacks get on, the noise levels increase by at least double. But don't let inconvenient facts get in the way of feel good dogma.
Yes, if you don't buy the outright lies presented by Neo Nazis you are PC...

Just piss off you fucking clown.
 
Jun 26, 2007
11,925
2
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Forget the article in the OP, the problem is the disparity in educational outcomes and expectations. The statistics are easily found.

What are some things you (or anyone else, I've asked before) would do if you were president for a day? Like I said earlier, it seems like cultural change has to come from within that culture, outside attempts are viewed as attacks and/or racist. Hell, even inside attempts are sometimes viewed as attacks, look what happened to Cosby for broaching the subject with truth.

It is not a comfortable subject to talk about, but if even attempts to discuss it with facts (again, ignoring the article in the OP) are viewed as attacks or racist, what to do? Obama, as the second black President (I've been told Clinton was the first, must of been his 'sax) has missed a golden opportunity to help "his" people by at least starting a conversation.

I guess all those chants of hope and change were for something else, because change has to begin within, and that person or culture has to WANT to change. Hell, you have to first admit there IS a problem if you want to fix it. And no, I am not an AA counselor, nor been through that program. :colbert:
1. Reinstitute a democratic republic where bribery known as lobbyism is illegal and punishable by life in prison or castration and exported to Scotland.

2. find out how to fix this by actually recruiting local groups that could be of help and RAISING TEACHERS SALARIES.

3. Murder stupid people.

Apart from 3 i am serious.
 

woolfe9998

Lifer
Apr 8, 2013
12,562
7,437
136
Forget the article in the OP, the problem is the disparity in educational outcomes and expectations. The statistics are easily found.

What are some things you (or anyone else, I've asked before) would do if you were president for a day? Like I said earlier, it seems like cultural change has to come from within that culture, outside attempts are viewed as attacks and/or racist. Hell, even inside attempts are sometimes viewed as attacks, look what happened to Cosby for broaching the subject with truth.

It is not a comfortable subject to talk about, but if even attempts to discuss it with facts (again, ignoring the article in the OP) are viewed as attacks or racist, what to do? Obama, as the second black President (I've been told Clinton was the first, must of been his 'sax) has missed a golden opportunity to help "his" people by at least starting a conversation.

I guess all those chants of hope and change were for something else, because change has to begin within, and that person or culture has to WANT to change. Hell, you have to first admit there IS a problem if you want to fix it. And no, I am not an AA counselor, nor been through that program. :colbert:
You're right to point out that trying to talk people into bettering themselves often results in hostility, resentment, and/or charges of racism. In the long run, only real integration will solve this problem. And by that, I don't mean you send some black kids to a white school where they spend all their time interacting only amongst themselves, and neither groups makes much of an attempt to interact with the other. I mean real integration which results in real assimilation. This kind of integration can't be forced. It may just have to happen organically, at a glacial pace, in dribs and drabs, over time.

As for Obama, you're wrong that he hasn't started this conversation. His speech on race in 2008 said exactly that - that the black community must take a hard look at itself and assume responsibility for its plight. He's continued that conservation. Example:

http://articles.washingtonpost.com/2013-05-19/politics/39376713_1_president-obama-morehouse-college-martin-luther-king-jr
 
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davmat787

Diamond Member
Nov 30, 2010
5,514
24
76
You're right to point out that trying to talk people into bettering themselves often results in hostility, resentment, and/or charges of racism. In the long run, only real integration will solve this problem. And by that, I don't mean you send some black kids to a white school where they spend all their time interacting only amongst themselves, and neither groups makes much of an attempt to interact with the other. I mean real integration which results in real assimilation. This kind of integration can't be forced. It may just have to happen organically, at a glacial pace, in dribs and drabs, over time.

As for Obama, you're wrong that he hasn't started this conversation. His speech on race in 2008 said exactly that - that the black community must take a hard look at itself and assume responsibility for its plight. He's continued that conservation. Example:

http://articles.washingtonpost.com/2013-05-19/politics/39376713_1_president-obama-morehouse-college-martin-luther-king-jr
Thanks for the correction in regards to Obama conversing on cultural changes among those in the black community that needs it, will look into this some more. I guess I was expecting to see some evidence of improvement by now in those communities. Admittedly, I am not in an area where I would notice any improvements to be honest.

But, as you said these changes will be glacial and generational.

I was just thinking, if a large part of the problem is a lack of expectations from parent(s) and teachers, and poverty, they most likely largely or wholly depend on government assistance. Knowing that this assistance will be there no matter what how one does in school, and your culture, friends, and neighborhoods accept the lifestyle this provides along with any supplemental income one might receive from legal and/or illicit activities, where is the incentive to do well in school?

I seem to recall one states attempt to tie welfare benefits to how well ones children did in school, or perhaps it was attendance. I have no idea where that stands now, but as and old cynic I unfortunately assume it was met with accusations of racism and went nowhere. Maybe they should have instead provided additional welfare, rather than suggest reducing.
 

Munky

Diamond Member
Feb 5, 2005
9,379
0
76
Not true. It can be 5 of more of anyone. But it happens a lot with teenagers.
It can be, but speaking from my own observations, it happens with blacks more than anyone else. And I've lived in areas with tons of teenagers and college kids.
 

woolfe9998

Lifer
Apr 8, 2013
12,562
7,437
136
Thanks for the correction in regards to Obama conversing on cultural changes among those in the black community that needs it, will look into this some more. I guess I was expecting to see some evidence of improvement by now in those communities. Admittedly, I am not in an area where I would notice any improvements to be honest.

But, as you said these changes will be glacial and generational.

I was just thinking, if a large part of the problem is a lack of expectations from parent(s) and teachers, and poverty, they most likely largely or wholly depend on government assistance. Knowing that this assistance will be there no matter what how one does in school, and your culture, friends, and neighborhoods accept the lifestyle this provides along with any supplemental income one might receive from legal and/or illicit activities, where is the incentive to do well in school?

I seem to recall one states attempt to tie welfare benefits to how well ones children did in school, or perhaps it was attendance. I have no idea where that stands now, but as and old cynic I unfortunately assume it was met with accusations of racism and went nowhere. Maybe they should have instead provided additional welfare, rather than suggest reducing.
I'm not entirely clear on the role that welfare plays in this. It probably isn't a good role, though I think the welfare system has its place in society, in any society which cannot employ all its citizens.

I will say this - most people aspire to have more or to be more than what a welfare life provides. It isn't always a lofty goal. It may just be wanting to have lots of hot women, fast cars, and anything else materially they want. Our broader American culture certainly encourages this way of thinking, so I doubt aspiring to be on welfare is all that common. The trouble is that with this particular sub-culture, the path to achieving more is often viewed as one of criminality (or sports or entertainment - very limited options).

This is the result of learned helplessness - a cross-generational indoctrination into the notion that black people cannot succeed, at least not legitimately, in what they perceive as a white dominated world. These kinds of attitudes persist even though they become less legitimate as time passes, and they won't go away except through real integration. Not even a series of good presidential speeches by a black president are likely to make more than a minor dent. It's more likely to be hundreds of minor dents over a long period of time.

Some social problems just can't be solved through immediate, direct action. This unfortunately is one of them.
 
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