'Been thinking about the universe and how it was made.

[DivideBYZero]

You're wrong.

 

[Fritzo]

Originally posted by: nakedfrog

Originally posted by: Greenman
Am I the only one who finds it odd that so many of you have no problem believing that the universe exploded out of a mono block, or was squirted into existence from another dimension, but scoff at the idea of it being created by God? Would creationism be more palatable if we said the universe was created by Fred? Then further state that Fred has no rules of behavior that we should follow? I often wonder if it's not the concept of a God that causes such consternation, but the idea that accepting the existence of God implies the existence of God's law, and along with that, the fear that we might be breaking it? To put it another way, is atheism nothing more than an exercise in plausible deniability?

Or perhaps the notion that a being capable of creating such vastness from nothingness would concern itself with the day-to-day minutiae of some organisms on one of a ridiculous number of planets?

God seems to be invoked when something can't be understood. When we get to a point when we do understand it, God's influence gets pushed back.

For instance- We once thought God caused weather. We now know that air pressure and the Sun cause weather. We once thought that God created the planet. We now know that planet creation is a result of gravity. Any subject that is beyond our current comprehension is goind to be credited to God.

My view: God created physics, and we're the result of these rules. What we do with these rules is up to us.

 

[Oceandevi]

Originally posted by: Fritzo

Originally posted by: nakedfrog

Originally posted by: Greenman
Am I the only one who finds it odd that so many of you have no problem believing that the universe exploded out of a mono block, or was squirted into existence from another dimension, but scoff at the idea of it being created by God? Would creationism be more palatable if we said the universe was created by Fred? Then further state that Fred has no rules of behavior that we should follow? I often wonder if it's not the concept of a God that causes such consternation, but the idea that accepting the existence of God implies the existence of God's law, and along with that, the fear that we might be breaking it? To put it another way, is atheism nothing more than an exercise in plausible deniability?

Or perhaps the notion that a being capable of creating such vastness from nothingness would concern itself with the day-to-day minutiae of some organisms on one of a ridiculous number of planets?

God seems to be invoked when something can't be understood. When we get to a point when we do understand it, God's influence gets pushed back.

For instance- We once thought God caused weather. We now know that air pressure and the Sun cause weather. We once thought that God created the planet. We now know that planet creation is a result of gravity. Any subject that is beyond our current comprehension is goind to be credited to God.

My view: God created physics, and we're the result of these rules. What we do with these rules is up to us.

And when we understand physics and can manipulate the rules?

do we become gods?

 

[Greenman]

Read the few posts after my first one. It's always the same result. The concept can't even be considered by most people. The term magic is always thrown in to dismiss God, but when we talk about the universe being created out of a gravitational point source, magic never enters the picture. It's interesting that given two logically imposable scenarios one is accepted as fact while the other is dismissed as a fairytale.

 

[jjones]

Originally posted by: Greenman
Am I the only one who finds it odd that so many of you have no problem believing that the universe exploded out of a mono block, or was squirted into existence from another dimension, but scoff at the idea of it being created by God? Would creationism be more palatable if we said the universe was created by Fred? Then further state that Fred has no rules of behavior that we should follow? I often wonder if it's not the concept of a God that causes such consternation, but the idea that accepting the existence of God implies the existence of God's law, and along with that, the fear that we might be breaking it? To put it another way, is atheism nothing more than an exercise in plausible deniability?

Well, even if there is a god, where did it come from? What is its plane of existance? Are there other gods?

If god is everything, all of existance in its entirety of whatever was and whatever will be, again, where did that everything come from? Who or what created the creator?

I tend to think it was man who created god, not the other way around.

 

[Oceandevi]

Originally posted by: Greenman
Read the few posts after my first one. It's always the same result. The concept can't even be considered by most people. The term magic is always thrown in to dismiss God, but when we talk about the universe being created out of a gravitational point source, magic never enters the picture. It's interesting that given two logically imposable scenarios one is accepted as fact while the other is dismissed as a fairytale.

I am sure most here think that something better than big bang theory will come along someday. Right now though its the best we have.

Old myths from a barbaric past are no help.

 

[KarmaPolice]

You are not the first to think of this and to wonder. I think a lot of people realize just how big of an idea it is, and that we will likely never know the answer. I am all for the idea of other dimensions, and would like the to think that one day in my life time we find out some crazy new shit about how space really works. I wonder if that Mass Collider being built will actually come up with anything after they study the heck out of the results. As for me, I don't count out anything until its really proven that it couldn't be it. I mean, I believe there could be a god that created the universe. I don't agree with any religion on this planet, but that doesn't mean I can't believe that something out their created us. Until some proves to me exactly what happened, and how we all got her, I am open to looking into all ideas. I don't know a lot about physics but I find it very interesting.

 

[KarmaPolice]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Large_Hadron_Collider

That stuff is amazing.

I often wonder how solid these theories are..I will never understand this stuff but how much stuff is behind all these physic theories.

 

[Fritzo]

Originally posted by: Oceandevi

Originally posted by: Fritzo

Originally posted by: nakedfrog

Originally posted by: Greenman
Am I the only one who finds it odd that so many of you have no problem believing that the universe exploded out of a mono block, or was squirted into existence from another dimension, but scoff at the idea of it being created by God? Would creationism be more palatable if we said the universe was created by Fred? Then further state that Fred has no rules of behavior that we should follow? I often wonder if it's not the concept of a God that causes such consternation, but the idea that accepting the existence of God implies the existence of God's law, and along with that, the fear that we might be breaking it? To put it another way, is atheism nothing more than an exercise in plausible deniability?

Or perhaps the notion that a being capable of creating such vastness from nothingness would concern itself with the day-to-day minutiae of some organisms on one of a ridiculous number of planets?

God seems to be invoked when something can't be understood. When we get to a point when we do understand it, God's influence gets pushed back.

For instance- We once thought God caused weather. We now know that air pressure and the Sun cause weather. We once thought that God created the planet. We now know that planet creation is a result of gravity. Any subject that is beyond our current comprehension is goind to be credited to God.

My view: God created physics, and we're the result of these rules. What we do with these rules is up to us.

And when we understand physics and can manipulate the rules?

do we become gods?

If you think about it...yes, we would be. However, that's unlikely to happen.

 

[Jeff7]

Originally posted by: Greenman
Am I the only one who finds it odd that so many of you have no problem believing that the universe exploded out of a mono block, or was squirted into existence from another dimension, but scoff at the idea of it being created by God? Would creationism be more palatable if we said the universe was created by Fred? Then further state that Fred has no rules of behavior that we should follow? I often wonder if it's not the concept of a God that causes such consternation, but the idea that accepting the existence of God implies the existence of God's law, and along with that, the fear that we might be breaking it? To put it another way, is atheism nothing more than an exercise in plausible deniability?

The creation of a complex Universe would require the existence of an even more complex being. Seems easier to believe the formation of finitely complex realm of space, time, and energy, guided by a bunch of "rules," laws of physics, which are based simply on the nature of those components, rather than the existence of an infinitely complex being, guided by laws which, by definition, cannot ever be comprehended.

And, if you can simply say, "Well, God always existed, he didn't need to be created," then why can I not say, "Ok, then the Universe always existed in some form."?
Indeed, one theory is that space and time erupted from the singularity of the Big Bang. If both of these things were formed, we have no way of describing anything that came before it, because ultimately, there was no "before" in any sense that our laws of nature can describe. There was no place, no time. There was probably something, but what it was would have been like nothing we experience here. Maybe we will eventually find a way to peek beyond space and time, maybe after 50,000 years of progress, maybe after a million. I do think that someday, life will find a way to see past these constraints. But not anywhere near our lifetimes.

It's a complex Universe for tiny life forms like us to comprehend. We see this grandeur, and compare it to ourselves, and think, "Someone powerful must have created this." We try to fit it all into the realm of what we know, our daily lives. Here on Earth, we like cause and effect - if we see a car, we know that someone created it. But if a tree falls in the woods and no one's around, who did that? Was it God? No, either the tree was dead and rotting, or else a strong gust of wind took it down. It was nature just being nature.

Similarly, the Universe works the same way - it's just nature being nature. That involves energy coalescing into matter during the very early stages of development. That involves mass producing a gravitational field, and atoms produce their own gravitational analogue, in the form of their shorter-range strong and weak nuclear forces. Gravity clumps the matter together. Once there's enough of it, the gravitational pressure is enough to cause friction to heat up the matter, and when it's hot enough, and of sufficient pressure, the nuclei begin to bond, they fuse together, and produce energy. Congratulations, you now have a star.
More gravitational interaction bonds the stars together into groupings which we refer to as galaxies. All of this requires no guiding hand, save the laws of physics, which are just properties of the matter, energy, space, and time, nothing more. There is no "why," any more than there is a real "why" to that tree falling in the woods. That tree falling wasn't some amazing, devine plan. It just fell. That's it. The laws of physics just exist the way they are. That's it.

If they didn't exist the way they do, if gravity was 10x weaker than it is, or if the strong nuclear force were half the strength it is, well then atoms might never have formed, and we wouldn't be around to ask, "How did we form if atoms don't exist?" We are here because this environment happened to be "just right" for us to exist. If it wasn't "just right," we wouldn't be here, simple as that.

 

[Fritzo]

Originally posted by: KarmaPolice
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Large_Hadron_Collider

That stuff is amazing.

I often wonder how solid these theories are..I will never understand this stuff but how much stuff is behind all these physic theories.

I always transpose the r and the d in Hadron, and it makes me giggle.

 

[Jeff7]

Originally posted by: Fritzo

Originally posted by: KarmaPolice
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Large_Hadron_Collider

That stuff is amazing.

I often wonder how solid these theories are..I will never understand this stuff but how much stuff is behind all these physic theories.

I always transpose the r and the d in Hadron, and it makes me giggle.

Large Hardon Collider? What a coincidence, that's what I call your girlfriend whenever she spends the night with me!

 

[SsupernovaE]

"God" is just a placeholder for "The Explanation". This does not preclude the existence of God, just that I believe an explanation may be simple and beautiful enough to be confused with a higher power.

puff puff pass

 

[Fritzo]

Originally posted by: Jeff7

Originally posted by: Fritzo

Originally posted by: KarmaPolice
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Large_Hadron_Collider

That stuff is amazing.

I often wonder how solid these theories are..I will never understand this stuff but how much stuff is behind all these physic theories.

I always transpose the r and the d in Hadron, and it makes me giggle.

Large Hardon Collider? What a coincidence, that's what I call your girlfriend whenever she spends the night with me!

Don't tell my wife I have a girlfriend

 

[Vic]

Originally posted by: Oceandevi

Originally posted by: Greenman
Read the few posts after my first one. It's always the same result. The concept can't even be considered by most people. The term magic is always thrown in to dismiss God, but when we talk about the universe being created out of a gravitational point source, magic never enters the picture. It's interesting that given two logically imposable scenarios one is accepted as fact while the other is dismissed as a fairytale.

I am sure most here think that something better than big bang theory will come along someday. Right now though its the best we have.

Old myths from a barbaric past are no help.

You all missed his point. Which is that it is quite obvious that the Big Bang theory is just the new myth for a barbaric present. They even sound about the same, except the Bible mentions God, doesn't include the math, and screwed up on the timeframe. Otherwise, the chain of events is nearly identical. In fact, modern science has not even really removed God from the equation, it's just said that God is unnecessary. So while we have figured out when and how, we are still stuck with the problem of not knowing where or why.

Originally posted by: nakedfrog
Or perhaps the notion that a being capable of creating such vastness from nothingness would concern itself with the day-to-day minutiae of some organisms on one of a ridiculous number of planets?

The universe is only vast in time and space to us because our relative position within it. From the speculated multiversal position, it would actually be young and tiny.
That's pure speculation, of course, as time and space came into existence at the Big Bang from our perspective. In the Hawking books mentioned above, he "answers" the question of "What happened before the Big Bang?" by asking "What's north of the north pole?"
Hawking does speculate though that the universe is like a bubble (or "brane") within an infinity of such bubbles, each one operating according to its own physical laws.
Seems plausible to me, however Hawking has fallen somewhat out of favor among the elite physicists in the past couple decades mostly due to disagreements over the black hole information paradox.

 

[sash1]

weed gives you some good thoughts

 

[narcotic]

Maybe you are the ONE!

Edit: take the blue pill when they come

 

[Greenman]

Originally posted by: narcotic
Maybe you are the ONE!

That's almost certain. The universe was created the day I was borne, it will cease to exist the day I die. Everything else is pure conjecture.

 

[nakedfrog]

Originally posted by: Jeff7

Originally posted by: Greenman
Am I the only one who finds it odd that so many of you have no problem believing that the universe exploded out of a mono block, or was squirted into existence from another dimension, but scoff at the idea of it being created by God? Would creationism be more palatable if we said the universe was created by Fred? Then further state that Fred has no rules of behavior that we should follow? I often wonder if it's not the concept of a God that causes such consternation, but the idea that accepting the existence of God implies the existence of God's law, and along with that, the fear that we might be breaking it? To put it another way, is atheism nothing more than an exercise in plausible deniability?

The creation of a complex Universe would require the existence of an even more complex being. Seems easier to believe the formation of finitely complex realm of space, time, and energy, guided by a bunch of "rules," laws of physics, which are based simply on the nature of those components, rather than the existence of an infinitely complex being, guided by laws which, by definition, cannot ever be comprehended.
[trimmed for your convenience]

Douglas Adams had some good stuff on the subject

 

[meltdown75]

as plausible as any theory i've heard.

 

[narcotic]

Originally posted by: Greenman

Originally posted by: narcotic
Maybe you are the ONE!

That's almost certain. The universe was created the day I was borne, it will cease to exist the day I die. Everything else is pure conjecture.

Oh... its that "if a tree falls deep in the forest and nobody hears it, does it make any sound" sort of thing?

Edit: like if you're not there to experience it, it didn't happen...?

 

[nakedfrog]

Originally posted by: Greenman

Originally posted by: narcotic
Maybe you are the ONE!

That's almost certain. The universe was created the day I was borne, it will cease to exist the day I die. Everything else is pure conjecture.

I won't have a figment of my imagination pulling the old 'Cogito Ergo Sum' on ME, dagnabit!

 

[Jeff7]

Originally posted by: nakedfrog

Douglas Adams had some good stuff on the subject

Good stuff. The puddle analogy is especially relevant.


And I just like this one:
"The fact that we live at the bottom of a deep gravity well, on the surface of a gas covered planet going around a nuclear fireball 90 million miles away and think this to be normal is obviously some indication of how skewed our perspective tends to be."

 

[sjwaste]

Originally posted by: Fritzo

Originally posted by: nakedfrog

Originally posted by: Greenman
Am I the only one who finds it odd that so many of you have no problem believing that the universe exploded out of a mono block, or was squirted into existence from another dimension, but scoff at the idea of it being created by God? Would creationism be more palatable if we said the universe was created by Fred? Then further state that Fred has no rules of behavior that we should follow? I often wonder if it's not the concept of a God that causes such consternation, but the idea that accepting the existence of God implies the existence of God's law, and along with that, the fear that we might be breaking it? To put it another way, is atheism nothing more than an exercise in plausible deniability?

Or perhaps the notion that a being capable of creating such vastness from nothingness would concern itself with the day-to-day minutiae of some organisms on one of a ridiculous number of planets?

God seems to be invoked when something can't be understood. When we get to a point when we do understand it, God's influence gets pushed back.

For instance- We once thought God caused weather. We now know that air pressure and the Sun cause weather. We once thought that God created the planet. We now know that planet creation is a result of gravity. Any subject that is beyond our current comprehension is goind to be credited to God.

My view: God created physics, and we're the result of these rules. What we do with these rules is up to us.

Same here. People look at me crooked when I say that last sentence. It's apparently just right to bother both the hardcore religious and the hardcore anti-religious (whatever they call themselves these days).

 

[SlickSnake]

Fritzo said:

What he posted is actually true---physics is now leaning towards the existance of a multiverse. I think this is tied in with string theory (all particles are composed of strings- one end is here, the other end in another universe). There may even be a near copy of our own universe, but with a different series of events that took place. Mind blowing stuff really.

Yea, it's SLIDERS

Puff...Puff...

This things almost a nub, OP needs to roll us another one!