Been out of the game awhile...

[leeland]

In my earlier years I had a decent home theater (before LCD's and HD)

I still have my speakers, Sub, Preamp and Amp and am looking to get a new 52 inch LCD Toshiba

I might try to ebay my old Marantz AV550(still undecided) and was looking for any recommendations on a newer or couple year old model preamp...

Problem is I have been out so long I don't know where to start looking and don't have a ton of time to read review after review...

Can anyone make some general recommendations for a new preamp processor? I would like to try to keep it under 500 dollars but if someone feels one is a "must have" I would like to hear about them too!

I would be using at the moment an upscaling DVD player and a Xbox 360 (both HDMI)


Here is the current setup I have along with speakers and amp:

Boston VR12 Center Channel Speaker

Boston VR35 Front Channel Speakers

Boston VR950 Rear Channel Speakers

SVS Sub

harmon kardon 2.1 signature series Amp


Thanks for looking!
Lee

 

[YOyoYOhowsDAjello]

For the most features and the ability to get audio over HDMI if you're planning on getting a Blu-ray player, you'd probably be best served with a current or 1 year old receiver with pre-outs. Onkyo 706? Denon 1909? HK 254? Pioneer 1018?

If you're content without audio over HDMI, then you'd have a lot more possibilities for a dedicated pre-pro or a higher end receiver with pre-outs. There are a lot of people out there trying to get rid of outdated equipment as they upgrade to HDMI capable units meaning that you could potentially get a pretty solid used unit if HDMI isn't a priority for you.

 

[s44]

You could ebay both pre-pro and amp and get an Onkyo SR876 receiver ($1000)... It has Audyssey MultEQ XT room correction, Audyssey Dynamic Volume and Dynamic EQ, and a Reon HQV upscaler. I believe the cheapest pre-pro with all of these is the even more expensive (!) Onkyo Pro SC886P (aka Integra 9.9), which is pretty much the same thing without the amp section.

Edit: if you're not worried about SD video processing, you can get the Denon 2809ci/989 -- which has the same Audyssey features -- for a bit less than the Onkyo.

 

[erwos]

I second the 876 suggestion (it'll upscale HDMI sources - awesome!), but I've heard the 875 had a slightly better amp section or something. *shrugs*

 

[s44]

Originally posted by: erwos
I second the 876 suggestion (it'll upscale HDMI sources - awesome!), but I've heard the 875 had a slightly better amp section or something. *shrugs*

I think that was 705/706 and 805/806. The 876 is, IIRC, exactly the same with some fixes.

 

[leeland]

Originally posted by: YOyoYOhowsDAjello
For the most features and the ability to get audio over HDMI if you're planning on getting a Blu-ray player, you'd probably be best served with a current or 1 year old receiver with pre-outs. Onkyo 706? Denon 1909? HK 254? Pioneer 1018?

If you're content without audio over HDMI, then you'd have a lot more possibilities for a dedicated pre-pro or a higher end receiver with pre-outs. There are a lot of people out there trying to get rid of outdated equipment as they upgrade to HDMI capable units meaning that you could potentially get a pretty solid used unit if HDMI isn't a priority for you.

Since I have yet to own a BR player...and don't know all the caveats of the setup...ect.

Is there any other way to set up BR player outside of HDMI? is it like the old DVD players that use an optical connection or is that now defunct?

I would like to be utilize the 5 channel amp and stay current to some degree with processor.

Side question if you have a 7.1 channel receiver that has pre-outs...could I use the 5 main ones (2 fronts, 2 rears, 1 center) and connect it to my existing 5 channel amp and use the other two channels from the receiver to power to additional speakers if I went that route and got two more floor speakers?

I can't break the bank so unless I can get a killer deal somewhere on one of the higher end model receivers \ processors recommended I would have to stick to the 300 - 500 range.

I guess i am looking for something that has the functionality that everyone is recommending (HDMI..and some of the other cool bell and whistles) but in a married w/ 3 kids budget 😀.

If you guys could put a finger on the "most important" feature(s) of the newer receivers...your must have options...

I read some reviews regarding HDMI "pass-through" vs. "upscaling"

I think that the "pass-through" is worse but can anyone tell me why it would be so much better to get a receiver that performs "upscaling"?


Thanks again for the recommendations it is very helpful to look back at this stuff!

Lee

 

[YOyoYOhowsDAjello]

With a blu-ray player, you'll be playing movies that have more advanced (lossless) audio on them compared to DVDs that have Dolby Digital or DTS. In order to get the higher quality audio playback, you'll either need a receiver that can accept audio over HDMI (all of the $300-$600 receivers I mentioned above do this), or you could get a Blu-ray player that can decode these audio formats internally and send out 5.1 or 7.1 analog. Alternatively, you can also hook up via toslink or digital coaxial just like a DVD player, but you will not be getting the newest sound formats (that's temporarily what I'm doing until I upgrade my pre-pro).

I believe you can get a decent blu-ray player that can send 7.1 analog for around $300?
http://forums.anandtech.com/me...=2282709&enterthread=y

$500 is enough though for your receiver purchase so that you wouldn't have to worry about that feature though. I recently bought a PS3 for $212 knowing that eventually I'd get a pre-pro that does audio over HDMI so I didn't worry about the multichannel analog output.


With a 7.1 receiver, yes, you should be able to use the built-in amps for rear speakers.

If you're willing to go used, audiogon, videogon, ebay, etc will probably all have good deals on receivers that were higher end at the time of their release vs. what's available for $500 now.

On the other hand, a few things have come out recently that might make the new ones a better option. One of the big features of buying a used high-end unit would be better amplification at the expense of other updates. Since you're using an external amp, that's not going to matter. On a new receiver, you'll likely get some good auto setup and equalization. Onkyo and Denon have the very well regarded audyssey system (different flavors depending on the model). This will help you even out the response of the speakers and take room effects into consideration. There's also the benefit of better HDMI audio functionality that I already mentioned.

 

[Rio Rebel]

I keep looking at the preamp/amp path, but I keep coming to the conclusion that I wouldn't save anything unless I wanted to go really high end. You would think there would be a good preamp with all the features of a $1000 receiver, but only a fraction of the price because it doesn't include the amps. But I haven't seen anything like that. I keep coming back to the good old all-in-one receiver, and you have to upgrade every so often because technology gets past you (I'm fighting it, though...I have a Denon 3805 that I refuse to replace, so I have to use anlog inputs for high res audio because my receiver doesn't have HDMI).

Thank God speakers don't have to be replaced as often, or this would be an even more expensive endeavor...

 

[Rio Rebel]

I love that sub, by the way. Very nice.

 

[leeland]

Let me ask you this...is it a bad idea to use my amp and look to just get a receiver for the processing side of things? I bought them seperate back in the day for this very reason so all I would have to do is upgrade the pre-amp...but 5+ years later that doesn't seem like the best idea...

As for the recommendations about the BR player...I would probably want to stay on the side of letting the receiver handle all that vs. getting a DVD player that decodes the audio...like you mentioned above.

Lastly...if you wouldn't mind...what do you think of that Toshiba TV I listed above. I am not in love with it by any means...I know that if you look around people say it is "nice" but it is only 60 Hz vs. the new 120 Hz.

In your opinion do you notice the difference?

 

[erwos]

Originally posted by: leeland
I think that the "pass-through" is worse but can anyone tell me why it would be so much better to get a receiver that performs "upscaling"?

When people say "HDMI upscaling", they mean one of two things:
1. The receiver takes your analog inputs, upscales them to 1080p (or 1080i, or whatever), and pumps them out the HDMI output(s).
2. The receiver takes ANY inputs, including HDMI, upscales it to 1080p, and pumps them out the HDMI output(s).

Option 1 is fairly common at the $500 range. Option 2 is very uncommon, and you need a receiver like the Onkyo 876.

Why would you need to upscale HDMI sources? The obvious one that comes to mind is your TiVo or other STB/DVR, which is generally only going to upscale to 720p or 1080i. Some stand-alone media streamers might also benefit. You might also get a slight boost out of your PS3's output if you're into games running at 720p (very common) that aren't too dependent on timing (games like Disgaea 3).

 

[s44]

Optical is dead. Without HDMI audio you have to go back to using multichannel analog connections... Except since most pre-pros and AVRs don't process the signal from those so you have to rely on the player's bass management, room correction, etc.

You can use a power amp with several channels of pre-outs, yes. A lot of people use a 3-channel amp to power the fronts.

The $1000 Onkyo 876 *is*, in a sense, the killer deal, because besides this and its Onkyo Pro/Integra siblings, you have to spend $3000+ on a pre-pro to get its feature set. It's also THX Ultra2 Plus certified and has the same amp section as last year's Onkyo 875/Integra 8.8, which was measured to hit its rated spec of 120W per with 5 channels driven at once -- the same as your current HK amp. You really should consider selling both.

Besides HDMI, the biggest advance in recent years is in room correction, and I'd get something with the best version of Audyssey you can find. To get MultEQ XT you have to get either that Onkyo 876 or the ~$800 Denon 2809ci/989, but in your price range I think the only product with Audyssey MultEQ is the Denon AVR 1908/788. For a little more than $500, you can get Onkyo's SR706 or, if you can find it, the previous year's Onkyo SR705, which actually has MultEQ XT *and* a better amp section than the 706 (yeah, beats me -- I think the 706 has better upscaling tho).

Upscaling means that SD resolution video is processed to look better at HD resolution. But the better upscalers also do superior de-interlacing, which is the really tricky part. Again, the Onkyo 876's Reon HQV is by far the best in its class -- remember the $3000+ alternatives? -- but it really depends how much SD you're going to watch in the first place (and the answer is very often "a lot less than you thought before having HD alternatives"). Note that the Samsung P2500/P2550 Blu-Ray player (~$300 now) also has the Reon.

Edit: another option -- refurb Marantz 5003 (with MultEQ) for $540

 

[leeland]

What do you think is a fair market value for my pre-pro and the amp? I would seriously consider selling both of them if I could re-coup enough of the cost of the Onkyo receiver and have the same power give or take a little...

Originally posted by: Rio Rebel
I keep looking at the preamp/amp path, but I keep coming to the conclusion that I wouldn't save anything unless I wanted to go really high end. You would think there would be a good preamp with all the features of a $1000 receiver, but only a fraction of the price because it doesn't include the amps. But I haven't seen anything like that. I keep coming back to the good old all-in-one receiver, and you have to upgrade every so often because technology gets past you (I'm fighting it, though...I have a Denon 3805 that I refuse to replace, so I have to use anlog inputs for high res audio because my receiver doesn't have HDMI).

Thank God speakers don't have to be replaced as often, or this would be an even more expensive endeavor...

I thought that way and I guess that is just the niche market and everyone likes it all in one package...I guess it would make the most sense to sell off my current stuff and look at investing in the newer all in one receiver units...

As for the sub...I can't imagine what the more expensive versions sound like...in my situation the whole house shakes like a train is rolling through...when I had everything hooked up I used to love to show it off with the depth charge clip from U-571 😀

Originally posted by: erwos

Originally posted by: leeland
I think that the "pass-through" is worse but can anyone tell me why it would be so much better to get a receiver that performs "upscaling"?

When people say "HDMI upscaling", they mean one of two things:
1. The receiver takes your analog inputs, upscales them to 1080p (or 1080i, or whatever), and pumps them out the HDMI output(s).
2. The receiver takes ANY inputs, including HDMI, upscales it to 1080p, and pumps them out the HDMI output(s).

Option 1 is fairly common at the $500 range. Option 2 is very uncommon, and you need a receiver like the Onkyo 876.

Why would you need to upscale HDMI sources? The obvious one that comes to mind is your TiVo or other STB/DVR, which is generally only going to upscale to 720p or 1080i. Some stand-alone media streamers might also benefit. You might also get a slight boost out of your PS3's output if you're into games running at 720p (very common) that aren't too dependent on timing (games like Disgaea 3).

SO does the same work for an xbox 360 with HDMI? The video and audio would be plugged into your receiver and be upscaled to 1080p? How about the audio?

 

[leeland]

Originally posted by: s44
Optical is dead. Without HDMI audio you have to go back to using multichannel analog connections... Except since most pre-pros and AVRs don't process the signal from those so you have to rely on the player's bass management, room correction, etc.

You can use a power amp with several channels of pre-outs, yes. A lot of people use a 3-channel amp to power the fronts.

The $1000 Onkyo 876 *is*, in a sense, the killer deal, because besides this and its Onkyo Pro/Integra siblings, you have to spend $3000+ on a pre-pro to get its feature set. It's also THX Ultra2 Plus certified and has the same amp section as last year's Onkyo 875/Integra 8.8, which was measured to hit its rated spec of 120W per with 5 channels driven at once -- the same as your current HK amp. You really should consider selling both.

Besides HDMI, the biggest advance in recent years is in room correction, and I'd get something with the best version of Audyssey you can find. To get MultEQ XT you have to get either that Onkyo 876 or the ~$800 Denon 2809ci/989, but in your price range I think the only product with Audyssey MultEQ is the Denon AVR 1908/788. For a little more than $500, you can get Onkyo's SR706 or, if you can find it, the previous year's Onkyo SR705, which actually has MultEQ XT *and* a better amp section than the 706 (yeah, beats me -- I think the 706 has better upscaling tho).

Upscaling means that SD resolution video is processed to look better at HD resolution. But the better upscalers also do superior de-interlacing, which is the really tricky part. Again, the Onkyo 876's Reon HQV is by far the best in its class -- remember the $3000+ alternatives? -- but it really depends how much SD you're going to watch in the first place (and the answer is very often "a lot less than you thought before having HD alternatives"). Note that the Samsung P2500/P2550 Blu-Ray player (~$300 now) also has the Reon.

Edit: another option -- refurb Marantz 5003 (with MultEQ) for $540

Reading up on your article referencing the MultiEQ XT...

is the article basically saying that the receiver would preform the same function as a professional installer would.

If that is the case, how does the receiver "evaluate" your room to determine the best sound?

Thanks for the great post and multiple references!

 

[YOyoYOhowsDAjello]

A used HK 2.1 amp with 1 channel blown went for $132 on ebay
There are a couple that had a $500/best offer price, but were unsold.

I don't know how comparable this one is to the other 5 channel HK amps, but it looks like $200-$300 is what they're going for?

Looks like the Marantz is worth about $100?

hmmm... I guess I kind of just did a price check for you 😛

 

[leeland]

Originally posted by: YOyoYOhowsDAjello
A used HK 2.1 amp with 1 channel blown went for $132 on ebay
There are a couple that had a $500/best offer price, but were unsold.

I don't know how comparable this one is to the other 5 channel HK amps, but it looks like $200-$300 is what they're going for?

Looks like the Marantz is worth about $100?

hmmm... I guess I kind of just did a price check for you 😛

Thanks for that price check on isle 4 😀


If you had to pick between the Onkyo 876 (900 plus dollars) and the 875 (800 dollar range) what is the real difference?

I like the reviews on these models...the only thing I have read so far from a negative aspect has been petty things and that it runs HOT...which is a little concerning...

However not being around high end home theater electronics it is hard for me to say if that is a deal breaker or not...

 

[s44]

Originally posted by: leeland
referencing the MultiEQ XT...

is the article basically saying that the receiver would preform the same function as a professional installer would.

If that is the case, how does the receiver "evaluate" your room to determine the best sound?

Thanks for the great post and multiple references!

Audyssey-enabled AVRs (and, in fact, pretty much *all* AVRs now -- every brand has some form of room correction) come with a mic you place at the listening position(s) so that the system can take measurements.

The 876 offers two new Audyssey features (Dynamic EQ -- so that the relative speaker levels are adjusted to account for volume changes -- and Dynamic Volume), an extra HDMI out, a music optimizer for lossy files, ISF video calibration functions for each input (instead of just one), and independent power supplies. I think it also fixes an odd 4:3 scaling issue of the 875...

As for heat... 😛

 

[YOyoYOhowsDAjello]

While the 805 vs 806 is questionable for what's better, I believe the 876 is equal or superior to the 875 in most if not all respects (if I remember correctly).

 

[leeland]

Originally posted by: YOyoYOhowsDAjello
While the 805 vs 806 is questionable for what's better, I believe the 876 is equal or superior to the 875 in most if not all respects (if I remember correctly).

Thanks for the reference...

I will keep that receiver on my radar and see what I can dump my current stuff for.


Thanks guys for all the recommendations...


LAST question...

Is the 120 Hz that noticable vs 60 Hz displays when you compare apples to apples or is that a feature for the higher end systems that want an ultra sharp visual experience.

don't get me wrong, I would like to have the best display ever...but when I see that TV I listed for 1200 dollars it is hard to pass up...

 

[s44]

It (the motion processing) is noticeable... But a lot of people don't like it.

120hz usually lets you do 5:5 pulldown of 24p material (all Blu-Ray movies), though.

 

[leeland]

well I pulled the trigger based on your guys suggestions and some further research on that Toshiba TV I listed above and on s44...he talked me into that Onkyo TX-SR876 receiver 😀

Thanks again guys!