Beams?

[DrPizza]

I've never done something like this before, so if anyone knows of any links, etc., that are good...

Basically: Exterior wall of my house (not really, it's an interior wall; but there's an addition to the house. Structurally, we can treat it as an exterior wall, one that is reinforced laterally)

There's a 4 1/2 foot doorway centered in an almost 12 foot section I'd like to to open up. Single story home, the wall is 2x4 construction, double plate stud wall, 16"oc., It supports the ceiling joists (2x6x12, resting on top of the wall) and roof rafters (not trusses), also 2x6's, with a bird's mouth cut out where they rest on top of the double plate. Joists and rafters are nailed together horizontally.

Goal: replace the double plate with a steel I-beam or H-beam. Due to only 7 foot ceilings, this would protrude from the ceiling by its depth, minus the thickness of the ceiling material. Thus, a 10" depth wooden beam would leave only about 6' 4" of head space - less than a typical doorway.

I have no idea what size steel beam replaces a 12" wooden beam (I think that's the size I need in wood) Width of the beam is not an issue; depth of the beam is. Tongue and groove ceilings, so boxing it in is not an issue. Electrical in the wall (3 outlets, 4 switches) - trivial. I have no idea where one buys beams either. I have no idea about different grades, the difference between I-beam and H-beam, etc. It's more or less, "hey, I was going to put 3 2x12's, 12 foot together for a beam, what kind of steel beam do you have that offers the same deflection, strength, etc.? Or, it could have been, "hey, I was going to laminate and bolt together a bunch of 2x4's to make a glulam beam. What width/depth steel beam will replace it, emphasis on as little depth as possible, thanks." Have pick-up, can travel, Western NY. I haven't looked, but I assume there are Youtube videos on installing it, which I presume means supporting the ceiling and roof prior to removing the supporting wall, and being able to lift something that's damn heavy.

edit: if needed, I can do all sorts of calculations of live loads, dead loads, etc. I've seen some calculators on U-Mass site, and lots of instruction. But, am hoping that, "okay, a single story house, 2x6 rafters 16"oc and 2x6 ceiling joists 16"oc, yeah, this size beam will be way more than strong enough."

 

[NutBucket]

I think you should really consult a pro to spec the proper beam. This is one job I wouldn't blindly DIY!

 

[TechBoyJK]

I've never done something like this before, so if anyone knows of any links, etc., that are good...

Basically: Exterior wall of my house (not really, it's an interior wall; but there's an addition to the house. Structurally, we can treat it as an exterior wall, one that is reinforced laterally)

There's a 4 1/2 foot doorway centered in an almost 12 foot section I'd like to to open up. Single story home, the wall is 2x4 construction, double plate stud wall, 16"oc., It supports the ceiling joists (2x6x12, resting on top of the wall) and roof rafters (not trusses), also 2x6's, with a bird's mouth cut out where they rest on top of the double plate. Joists and rafters are nailed together horizontally.

Goal: replace the double plate with a steel I-beam or H-beam. Due to only 7 foot ceilings, this would protrude from the ceiling by its depth, minus the thickness of the ceiling material. Thus, a 10" depth wooden beam would leave only about 6' 4" of head space - less than a typical doorway.

I have no idea what size steel beam replaces a 12" wooden beam (I think that's the size I need in wood) Width of the beam is not an issue; depth of the beam is. Tongue and groove ceilings, so boxing it in is not an issue. Electrical in the wall (3 outlets, 4 switches) - trivial. I have no idea where one buys beams either. I have no idea about different grades, the difference between I-beam and H-beam, etc. It's more or less, "hey, I was going to put 3 2x12's, 12 foot together for a beam, what kind of steel beam do you have that offers the same deflection, strength, etc.? Or, it could have been, "hey, I was going to laminate and bolt together a bunch of 2x4's to make a glulam beam. What width/depth steel beam will replace it, emphasis on as little depth as possible, thanks." Have pick-up, can travel, Western NY. I haven't looked, but I assume there are Youtube videos on installing it, which I presume means supporting the ceiling and roof prior to removing the supporting wall, and being able to lift something that's damn heavy.

edit: if needed, I can do all sorts of calculations of live loads, dead loads, etc. I've seen some calculators on U-Mass site, and lots of instruction. But, am hoping that, "okay, a single story house, 2x6 rafters 16"oc and 2x6 ceiling joists 16"oc, yeah, this size beam will be way more than strong enough."

Make sure you get a permit first.

 

[Humpy]

I'm not entirely clear on the circumstances here, IME steel = consult an engineer.

Is there the possibility of gaining enough headroom by recessing an LVL beam up into the ceiling/roof assembly and supporting the loads off the side of it with hangers? If that makes sense, it was a common remodeling approach we would take when dealing with what I think I understand is occurring in the OP.

 

[DrPizza]

I'm not entirely clear on the circumstances here, IME steel = consult an engineer.

Is there the possibility of gaining enough headroom by recessing an LVL beam up into the ceiling/roof assembly and supporting the loads off the side of it with hangers? If that makes sense, it was a common remodeling approach we would take when dealing with what I think I understand is occurring in the OP.

That's actually the approach I was considering taking when I get to the bedroom end of the house. The existing closet walls only hold up the ceiling joists - a pair of 2x6's that span the width of the house. This 3 bedroom 1 office is slowly being transformed into 2 bedroom bath, master bath, walk-in closet.

I kind of expected a lot of "consult an engineer" replies. I guess what I was hoping for is "in your situation, a axbxc beam is probably enough, but for an extra $100, this size beam is more than certain to have the strength and rigidity for your application. (Rather than spending a few hundred on an engineer. - Or, how much would I expect an engineer to cost?)

Techboy - per my town supervisor or whatever his title was - "are you increasing the square footage? No? You don't need a permit then."

 

[NutBucket]

Yeah, sounds about right. Screw permits. I pretty much assume any renovations done in a home are done sans permit

Especially in my market buyers could care less (unless sq footage doesn't match).

 

[herm0016]

Dr. pizza, I have a book full of beam specs and calcs, I'll be home tomorrow night. (marks mechanical engineering handbook) draw me a picture and let me know what your basic, distributed load is. I'll tell you the beam grade and size.

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk

 

[TechBoyJK]

That's actually the approach I was considering taking when I get to the bedroom end of the house. The existing closet walls only hold up the ceiling joists - a pair of 2x6's that span the width of the house. This 3 bedroom 1 office is slowly being transformed into 2 bedroom bath, master bath, walk-in closet.

I kind of expected a lot of "consult an engineer" replies. I guess what I was hoping for is "in your situation, a axbxc beam is probably enough, but for an extra $100, this size beam is more than certain to have the strength and rigidity for your application. (Rather than spending a few hundred on an engineer. - Or, how much would I expect an engineer to cost?)

Techboy - per my town supervisor or whatever his title was - "are you increasing the square footage? No? You don't need a permit then."

In my basement, there's one primary steel beam running parallel to the street. There's two support columns placed evenly across the beam. One of the beams is kind of in the middle of an open area, and when I asked our home inspector about moving it, he said

"a new beam won't cost much, but getting an engineer to tell you what to do with it will be rather expensive". And he left it at that. Made it sound like it wasn't something we should entertain messing with.

 

[NutBucket]

If you replace it with a beam that's twice as big then it can carry at least twice the load, right?

 

[TechBoyJK]

If you replace it with a beam that's twice as big then it can carry at least twice the load, right?

that's what she said.

 

[DrPizza]

Dr. pizza, I have a book full of beam specs and calcs, I'll be home tomorrow night. (marks mechanical engineering handbook) draw me a picture and let me know what your basic, distributed load is. I'll tell you the beam grade and size.

Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk

It'll be a day or so before I have time to do the calculations. Thanks!

 

[MongGrel]

I think you should really consult a pro to spec the proper beam. This is one job I wouldn't blindly DIY!

I'm not entirely clear on the circumstances here, IME steel = consult an engineer.

Is there the possibility of gaining enough headroom by recessing an LVL beam up into the ceiling/roof assembly and supporting the loads off the side of it with hangers? If that makes sense, it was a common remodeling approach we would take when dealing with what I think I understand is occurring in the OP.

I've done something similar in the past, and an I-Beam sounds like what you are looking for. It's a lot of how you go about doing it of course.

I'd imagine a 4 x 4 would probably do it, and of course you have to jack things up on a support wall to install it, but that is winging it off the top of the head.

Might take a 4 X 6 I beam.

Sounds you need a professional for advice on that one.

You would be messing with the whole basic structure of your house there, but I'm aware you do those to begin with.

I've thought about opening a wall like that into the living room to from the kitchen myself in the past.

Depends on the roof and your in an area that will have a lot of snow weight I imagine in the winter.

 

[Greenman]

Figuring out the actual dead load on the beam is simplicity, and somewhere on the web is a calculator that will tell you the size beam for that distributed load, though you could just as well calc it as a point load, the beam will just be a bit larger.
You should have a 2x connected to the top of your beam to anchor the rafters and joists to, as well as giving you a place to strap to the top plates on either side. It's important that the wall structure have a continuous connection across the top.

 

[DrPizza]

Figuring out the actual dead load on the beam is simplicity, and somewhere on the web is a calculator that will tell you the size beam for that distributed load, though you could just as well calc it as a point load, the beam will just be a bit larger.
You should have a 2x connected to the top of your beam to anchor the rafters and joists to, as well as giving you a place to strap to the top plates on either side. It's important that the wall structure have a continuous connection across the top.

Thanks. It's the live load that will give me a bit of pause - you Californians don't often deal with 2 or 3 or 4 feet of snow sitting on your roof. (Though, personally, I enjoy going up there with a shovel and shoveling off the whole roof if we get a lot of snow weight up there.)

 

[Greenman]

Thanks. It's the live load that will give me a bit of pause - you Californians don't often deal with 2 or 3 or 4 feet of snow sitting on your roof. (Though, personally, I enjoy going up there with a shovel and shoveling off the whole roof if we get a lot of snow weight up there.)

We don't deal with snow, but you should see the grief we go through for earthquakes. 6 24"x36" pages of engineering details for a 600 foot addition is common.

For your snow load, don't they just figure it at 40 pounds per square foot? It seems like I've seen that somewhere. Regardless, it should be easy enough to find the actual weight of a cubic foot of snow, then it's just a bit of math 101 to come up with the entire load.

 

[NutBucket]

Greenman beat me to the punch with earthquakes. Snow seems easy by comparison; just assume extra load!

 

[MongGrel]

Greenman beat me to the punch with earthquakes. Snow seems easy by comparison; just assume extra load!

Hurricanes are a factor too, just depends where you're at sometimes.

 

[Greenman]

Hurricanes are a factor too, just depends where you're at sometimes.

I've done a couple ridge line projects where wind load was a greater concern than seismic. Very little difference in how they went together.

 

[DrPizza]

Well, I was doing some trim work in that room, putting molding up around the new doorway to the kitchen, front door to match, and got to the existing living room opening. After staring for half an hour at it, I started ripping off drywall. Double 2x6 header above the doorway, no jack studs for it - it's just toenailed into the 2x4 king studs adjacent to it. I figured if that held the load, then for now, extending it 20" and putting jack studs under each end should be strong enough - and a double 2x4 top plate directly in contact with it above - no cripple studs. That'll keep me happy for a couple of years, allowing other projects to go forward. Off to HD for a couple 2x6's and a sheet of drywall. Crossing my fingers I can find the drywall screws on the dining room side that hold the drywall to the header - then I'd only need to do drywall work on one side of the wall when I'm done.

 

[edro]

Ah, a happy (cheap/easy) ending.

 

[DrPizza]

Ah, a happy (cheap/easy) ending.

Well, sort of. I removed the wiring for a light switch on one side of the wall. I had to remove an outlet each on both sides of the wall. Breakers were flipped off; I could finish the wiring whenever I felt like it. But, for whatever, very fortunate reason, I decided to relocate one of the wires before I put in the jack stud. As soon as I got to that location in the basement - the living room is an addition to the house. In the basement, they opened up a doorway to the room below the living room - it's like it's own separate room. So, 32" wide, they had removed the cinder blocks, but left the sill plate. Where two 2x8 boards forming the sill plate butted up to one another was directly above the doorway, and not really reinforced with much. My jack stud would have been almost perfectly in line with where those 2x8's butted up to one another - not above the cinder block foundation. Soooo, I cringed for a few moments, and then my doorway was even 16" wider. I worked carefully enough on one side that I didn't even have to patch the drywall - by the time I put in the door jam in the entryway, and the trim molding, it looked like it's always been that way. (Floor is another issue.) But, on the living room, I stared for a while, and decided that yep, I'm going to re-sheetrock the entire room. When they did the addition on the house, they never primed the drywall - they hung wall paper over it. And, it's the kind of wall paper where the seams used to overlap. Even with a textured wall paper, we've never been able to hide those seems. So, brand new walls coming soon.