BCS - Is it inherently flawed?

[jjones]

I'm not what you'd call a big college football fan, but I like college ball well enough and catch games when I can, which is not easy living where I do. However, I'm not up to snuff on the whole BCS thing, and how it works in the details, but it seems mostly clear enough.

My question is this. Can a number 1 ranked team, going into the NCG, lose to the number 2 ranked team and still be ranked number 1, and National Champions, after the loss? Since the final standings are subject to voting and computer standings, in certain scenarios I can see how this could happen. Say an undefeated team plays a second place 2 loss team (which could have very well been the case this year) and then the undefeated team goes on to lose to the 2 loss team in a very close game. Somehow, given what little I know about how the BCS works, I could see the loser of the NCG remaining the number 1 ranked team. This doesn't seem right, but maybe I'm not accounting for something that would definately prevent the formerly undefeated team from retaining their numer 1 ranking.

 

[hdeck]

no, #1 can't lose the championship game and still be the national champion.

*edit* the winner of the BCS championship game is the BCS national champion. there is no voting, no formulas, nothing.

i suppose it is *technically* possible for said team to win the AP national title, but no sports writer in his/her write mind would vote for the loser as the #1 team.

 

[jjones]

Originally posted by: hdeck
no, #1 can't lose the championship game and still be the national champion.

Is that a BCS rule?

 

[Linflas]

Personally I think the whole thing is a silly outgrowth of the old Bowl system driven by some need on the part of rich alumni to have some absolute way to convince themselves that their alma mater is #1.

 

[sao123]

any system which relies on coaches and media to vote on who should go to the playoffs if flawed IMO...

every school has access to the same level of recruiting...
every school has a schedule to play and a conference to win...


college football should take every conference champion & a few wildcards and have a playoff system instead of a 35-50 day layoff and then play a meaningless game for the national title.


Imagine if the NFL superbowl was done off the ESPN power rankings... OH GOD!!!!

 

[hdeck]

not every conference has a championship game. imagine if the NFL had 119 teams that competed for the playoffs. good luck choosing who is deserving in that scenario.

football players do have finals to take, even if their schools do everything possible to make them easy for them. school presidents really have no reason to want a playoff system. there is no perfect system. playoffs might be better, but they aren't happening any time soon.

 

[BrownTown]

Originally posted by: hdeck
not every conference has a championship game. imagine if the NFL had 119 teams that competed for the playoffs. good luck choosing who is deserving in that scenario.

football players do have finals to take, even if their schools do everything possible to make them easy for them. school presidents really have no reason to want a playoff system. there is no perfect system. playoffs might be better, but they aren't happening any time soon.

There really are only a few teams that are actually deserving to have a shot at the title in college football, a 4 team playoff would almost certainlly contain all undefeated teams at least, and an 8 team playoff would contain all the teams with any decentshot at winning the title on any given day.

 

[sao123]

Originally posted by: hdeck
not every conference has a championship game. imagine if the NFL had 119 teams that competed for the playoffs. good luck choosing who is deserving in that scenario.

football players do have finals to take, even if their schools do everything possible to make them easy for them. school presidents really have no reason to want a playoff system. there is no perfect system. playoffs might be better, but they aren't happening any time soon.

I dont see how college football can be that much different than HS... they have time for playoffs, and they have tests, midterms, and finals.
Even if we do the playoffs for just the top 6 or even 8 teams. That still doesnt change the number of bowl games... it just eliminates all of this "automatic bid" and "voting" to determine the national champion.

 

[hdeck]

Originally posted by: BrownTown

Originally posted by: hdeck
not every conference has a championship game. imagine if the NFL had 119 teams that competed for the playoffs. good luck choosing who is deserving in that scenario.

football players do have finals to take, even if their schools do everything possible to make them easy for them. school presidents really have no reason to want a playoff system. there is no perfect system. playoffs might be better, but they aren't happening any time soon.

There really are only a few teams that are actually deserving to have a shot at the title in college football, a 4 team playoff would almost certainlly contain all undefeated teams at least, and an 8 team playoff would contain all the teams with any decentshot at winning the title on any given day.

how would you have chosen who is deserving this year? just put mich/osu/usc/uf? can you leave out louisville/boise state/ wake forest?

clearly a 4 team playoff wouldn't contain all undefeated teams since there has never been a BCS year with 4 undefeated teams in BCS conferences. there will *always* be someone left out that could/should deserve a shot. it will never be perfect.

 

[hdeck]

Originally posted by: sao123

Originally posted by: hdeck
not every conference has a championship game. imagine if the NFL had 119 teams that competed for the playoffs. good luck choosing who is deserving in that scenario.

football players do have finals to take, even if their schools do everything possible to make them easy for them. school presidents really have no reason to want a playoff system. there is no perfect system. playoffs might be better, but they aren't happening any time soon.

I dont see how college football can be that much different than HS... they have time for playoffs, and they have tests, midterms, and finals.
Even if we do the playoffs for just the top 6 or even 8 teams. That still doesnt change the number of bowl games... it just eliminates all of this "automatic bid" and "voting" to determine the national champion.

and there are also 5+ recognized "state championships" in a lot of states. you can't really compare high school to college, either. theoretically, student athletes are supposed to be going for a higher education, not as a near requirement to get into the nfl. with the increased academic standards currently being implemented, it isn't hard to believe that GPAs would be effected if players had to play additional games.

 

[jlbenedict]

Division 1A needs to just implement a playoff based off of the rules that Division 1AA uses for their playoff bracketing. It wouldn't be perfect, but it sure would beat the BCS.

 

[ranmaniac]

I wonder if there's just too much money to be made with the current BCS system that they don't want to switch the format?

 

[jlbenedict]

Originally posted by: ranmaniac
I wonder if there's just too much money to be made with the current BCS system that they don't want to switch the format?

There is. There are millions and millions of dollars involved with the BCS, bowl games, etc.. etc..

This sums it up: BCS execs = OPEC and oil barons

 

[LikeLinus]

Originally posted by: sao123
I dont see how college football can be that much different than HS... they have time for playoffs, and they have tests, midterms, and finals.
Even if we do the playoffs for just the top 6 or even 8 teams. That still doesnt change the number of bowl games... it just eliminates all of this "automatic bid" and "voting" to determine the national champion.

You have some flawed thinking. First you say

"any system which relies on coaches and media to vote on who should go to the playoffs if flawed IMO..."

The BCS takes into account several polls, strength of schedule and many other factors.

Secondly, how exactly would you determain who "deserves" to go to the playoff? Do all 100+ NCAA D1 teams get to go? I'm assuming you only want the top 10/8. How are those chosen? Coaches? Media? Fans?

So if you vote who the top 8 teams are - aren't you back in the same position that you started out in?

Secondly, HS sports are very different. There are many state championships for each of their divisions. So you end up with a bunch of State Champs at the end of the year. There's no way College could follow this system.

Ultimately a playoff system is needed. It will never be perfect though. You will always have a team outside looking in who may have deserved a shot.

 

[rudder]

Originally posted by: sao123
college football should take every conference champion & a few wildcards and have a playoff system instead of a 35-50 day layoff and then play a meaningless game for the national title.

Still thought you must remember the fact that these are students (well supposed to be anyway) and subjecting them to a playoff schedule may be too much for the student/athlete and the school. It would be very hard to have a playoff and fly a college team to california one week and then fly them to New York the next. Being football it takes your body a little longer to recover that say a basketball game or baseball game.

I am all for a playoff system... maybe it would have to be a very limited playoff bracket. College basketball has march madness with 64 teams so I don't know how they would handle it.

 

[Queasy]

Any system that doesn't use some form of playoff is going to be flawed. The BCS isn't great but it is still better than what we had in, say, 1990 and before.

 

[slsmnaz]

The BCS was designed only to match #1 vs #2 and it usually does just that. All the other BCS bowls are just for cash.

Blame the Big-10 commish for not having a playoff. Here's an article on him.

And for those who say it's too big a strain on academics, look at the basketball and baseball tourneys and show me how that's not a bigger problem. And are the 1AA athletes studying at lesser schools because they seem to do it just fine.

 

[LikeLinus]

Originally posted by: rudder

Originally posted by: sao123
college football should take every conference champion & a few wildcards and have a playoff system instead of a 35-50 day layoff and then play a meaningless game for the national title.

Still thought you must remember the fact that these are students (well supposed to be anyway) and subjecting them to a playoff schedule may be too much for the student/athlete and the school. It would be very hard to have a playoff and fly a college team to california one week and then fly them to New York the next. Being football it takes your body a little longer to recover that say a basketball game or baseball game.

I am all for a playoff system... maybe it would have to be a very limited playoff bracket. College basketball has march madness with 64 teams so I don't know how they would handle it.

The travel and getting ready for game time is a moot point. Teams do this all the time?

But, this is why you schedule the playoffs during the winter break (i.e before Christmas) and then schedule the championship the next week after Christmas.

That way you make it where students are out of school and can travel, as well as the rest of the nation.

 

[Queasy]

Originally posted by: slsmnaz
The BCS was designed only to match #1 vs #2 and it usually does just that. All the other BCS bowls are just for cash.

Blame the Big-10 commish for not having a playoff. Here's an article on him.

And for those who say it's too big a strain on academics, look at the basketball and baseball tourneys and show me how that's not a bigger problem. And are the 1AA athletes studying at lesser schools because they seem to do it just fine.

The academic strain excuse is just a smoke screen for money and control.

My brother's nephew plays college baseball and spends more time traveling than any football player. Plus, if you just do a simple BCS+1 system that means only two teams are spending any extra time traveling.

 

[jlbenedict]

Division 1-AA does the playoff just fine.


Realign the conferneces; Independants would join a conference. All conferences have a championship game... winners of conference championships get automatic bids to the tourney.

There are currently 11 Division 1-A conferences. That would be 11 automatic bids. Then through a selection process, choose 5 at-large bids to be invited to the playoffs. There is your 16 team playoff, just as in Division 1-AA.

 

[dullard]

Originally posted by: jjones
My question is this. Can a number 1 ranked team, going into the NCG, lose to the number 2 ranked team and still be ranked number 1, and National Champions, after the loss? Since the final standings are subject to voting and computer standings, in certain scenarios I can see how this could happen.

The bolded part is where you are wrong. The final BCS standings are NOT subject to voting and they are NOT subject to computer rankings. The final BCS standings are used for one and only one thing: to choose two teams for a national championship playoff. After the national championship playoff, the winner takes all.

There is still the AP voters who can vote for a separate national champion (like they have been doing for decades). In fact, there are well over 100 different groups/people claiming that they crown a national champion each year. So, if you take all those into consideration, then yes the teams are subject to voting and to computer standings. However, you asked about the BCS. As far as the BCS is conserned, the 2-team playoff winner takes all.

 

[Thraxen]

Originally posted by: hdeck
and there are also 5+ recognized "state championships" in a lot of states. you can't really compare high school to college, either. theoretically, student athletes are supposed to be going for a higher education, not as a near requirement to get into the nfl. with the increased academic standards currently being implemented, it isn't hard to believe that GPAs would be effected if players had to play additional games.

Sorry, that reasoning simply doesn't work. Teams still only play 12-14 games per year. So how is it that a playoff seems to work just fine in basketball and baseball when they also play 30+ game seasons? They have to practice and travel just like football teams and they often have multiple games per week. Also, there are 119 D1 football teams right? Well, in a playoff your are talking about maybe 8 teams involved. So that leaves the other 111 plenty of time to "study".

 

[sao123]

Originally posted by: LikeLinus

Originally posted by: sao123
I dont see how college football can be that much different than HS... they have time for playoffs, and they have tests, midterms, and finals.
Even if we do the playoffs for just the top 6 or even 8 teams. That still doesnt change the number of bowl games... it just eliminates all of this "automatic bid" and "voting" to determine the national champion.

You have some flawed thinking. First you say

"any system which relies on coaches and media to vote on who should go to the playoffs if flawed IMO..."

The BCS takes into account several polls, strength of schedule and many other factors.
**In normal athletics... strength ofschedule is meaningless. The last one standing is the champ. Its that way in every sport but the BCS...
So if we applied the BCS to the NFL... why should anyone from the NFC west even make the playoffs? Seattle, SF, Arizona, & St Louis... its a weak conference, and there are other teams from other conferences which should have that spot by your logic.**

Secondly, how exactly would you determain who "deserves" to go to the playoff? Do all 100+ NCAA D1 teams get to go? I'm assuming you only want the top 10/8. How are those chosen? Coaches? Media? Fans?
I already said... the team with the best record in each conference get to go to the playoffs.

So if you vote who the top 8 teams are - aren't you back in the same position that you started out in? Conference realignment might be necessary to make less conferences...but see my above comments.

Secondly, HS sports are very different. There are many state championships for each of their divisions. So you end up with a bunch of State Champs at the end of the year. There's no way College could follow this system.

In my state there is 1 state champion in each of the A, AA, AAA, AAAA, AAAAA... which is the equivolent of Div 1-A, Division 1-AA...etc. There is no multiple state championships, because the brackets go until 1 team is left standing.

Ultimately a playoff system is needed. It will never be perfect though. You will always have a team outside looking in who may have deserved a shot.
**Theres always a borderline team no matter how you set the limit... however, you at least take an arbitrary number of teams and let them play it out, until only 1 is left. You cant have the top teams play... and half of them remain winners then declare one a champion.**

 

[sciencewhiz]

Originally posted by: jlbenedict
Division 1-AA does the playoff just fine.


Realign the conferneces; Independants would join a conference. All conferences have a championship game... winners of conference championships get automatic bids to the tourney.

There are currently 11 Division 1-A conferences. That would be 11 automatic bids. Then through a selection process, choose 5 at-large bids to be invited to the playoffs. There is your 16 team playoff, just as in Division 1-AA.

So, your 16 teams in order of seed would be: Ohio State, Florida, Michigan, LSU, USC, Louisville, Wisconsin, Boise St, Auburn, Oklahoma, Notre Dame, Wake Forest, BYU, Houston, Central Michigan, Middle Tennessee St,

I'm sure the TV ratings would be great for Ohio State and Middle Tennessee St.

 

[slsmnaz]

Originally posted by: sciencewhiz

Originally posted by: jlbenedict
Division 1-AA does the playoff just fine.


Realign the conferneces; Independants would join a conference. All conferences have a championship game... winners of conference championships get automatic bids to the tourney.

There are currently 11 Division 1-A conferences. That would be 11 automatic bids. Then through a selection process, choose 5 at-large bids to be invited to the playoffs. There is your 16 team playoff, just as in Division 1-AA.

So, your 16 teams in order of seed would be: Ohio State, Florida, Michigan, LSU, USC, Louisville, Wisconsin, Boise St, Auburn, Oklahoma, Notre Dame, Wake Forest, BYU, Houston, Central Michigan, Middle Tennessee St,

I'm sure the TV ratings would be great for Ohio State and Middle Tennessee St.

MTSU is an up and coming fball team. After what I saw last night they could have a shot.