Bay Trail's not so bad... (N2830)

[dave_the_nerd]

Not really. The N2830 in this laptop, seems quite a bit faster than the E1-2500 that was in my 19.5" AIO Win8 PC, and miles better than the C-70 in my NanoPC.

Yes, a 2.1-2.4GHz dual core with a more modern architecture should be faster than a 1.3 or 1.4 GHz dual core with an older, inferior architecture.

 

[VirtualLarry]

Not so common anymore. I don't know if it's on Intel's side or the OEMs', but since BT-M, there aren't many Core Pentiums/Celerons, especially in that very low budget laptop range.

This is true, at least looking at retail store budget laptops. Seems low-end Core (Pentium / Celeron) is out, and Bay Trail-M is in.

 

[dave_the_nerd]

This is true, at least looking at retail store budget laptops. Seems low-end Core (Pentium / Celeron) is out, and Bay Trail-M is in.

Yeah, you have to hunt a little - they're out there though.

Celeron 2955U, 2980U, Pentium 3556U and 3560Y.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Consumer_Ultra-Low_Voltage#Celeron_.2822_nm.29_2

 

[dave_the_nerd]

Something like this maybe:

http://www.amazon.com/Dell-Inspiron-...keywords=3556U

The problem, imo, with those low-powered inexpensive laptops is that they never seem to stack up well compared to business-class refurbs in the same price bracket. If you don't mind a used machine and are willing to spend some time shopping, it's awesome.

I'm still kind of proud of the "score" I got last November - an HP Elitebook 2170p for $320. (The base model i3 with a 500GB HDD and 4GB RAM. It ended up as my brother's christmas gift.)

For example, compare the Dell above with the CULV Pentium, to this:

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16834300534

 

[sm625]

I wish that they had laptops in this price range, with 1007U or 1037U CPUs, and Windows 7, I would choose them in a heartbeat over the Atom CPUs. But this was a price-sensitive purchase, and the cheapest 1017U laptop with Win7 64-bit was $330 at Newegg.

http://www.staples.com/Toshiba-Satel...roduct_1064941

Search slickdeals to find out how to get this laptop for $250. This one has a 3558U which is even faster than a 2955U.

 

[VirtualLarry]

Well, I finally got the Asus N2830 laptop hooked up to my 1920x1080 (1080P) HDTV / monitor via HDMI.

It's a bit laggy, but I'm not sure if that's the N2830's GPU, or Waterfox 31.0. In fact, typing this, there is lag before seeing the letters I'm typing, so I'm guessing it's Waterfox, not the iGPU. Hopefully that's the case, and it will be fixed in the next version.

Edit: I should mention that on my Pentium G630 (2.7Ghz SB) I also get lag while typing, in Waterfox 31.0 at times.

Edit: Seems to be fixed in newer versions of Waterfox, like 35.0, my current version.

 

[dave_the_nerd]

You could try just using vanilla Firefox, or Chrome. I mean, you're not married to the browser are you?

Otherwise; lag while typing? What is this, 1998? Yikes.

 

[dahorns]

Well, I finally got the Asus N2830 laptop hooked up to my 1920x1080 (1080P) HDTV / monitor via HDMI.

It's a bit laggy, but I'm not sure if that's the N2830's GPU, or Waterfox 31.0. In fact, typing this, there is lag before seeing the letters I'm typing, so I'm guessing it's Waterfox, not the iGPU. Hopefully that's the case, and it will be fixed in the next version.

I've hooked up my Venue 8 Pro to a 1080P TV using miracast and USB/HDMI without lag.

Not sure if the processor difference explains it or not (4 cores vs 2, gpu differences).

 

[waltchan]

These are all tablet processor types (all fake laptop processors that Intel wants you to believe they are real computer processors), and due to their very low cost in production, OEM PC makers are now buying them for their low-end models instead of the Core i-Series notebook processors. So, the standard-size notebook Haswell Celeron 2955U/2957U processor, while far superior, are now limited and hard to find in stores.

And now we are seeing desktop standard-size towers with only a tablet processor inside, which leaves a 90% empty-space wasted inside the case (HP 110-430 model). Meet the Celeron J1800, J1900, and Pentium J2900. Production is now up 80% more amount than LGA1155 Celeron G465/G470 it replaced 2 years ago, and performance on the single thread is 50% slower than before.

New computers you buy in stores today (mostly apply to budget models) are NOT necessary faster than your old ones, but instead they have become more energy-efficient, plus longer lifespan due to less heat since they're now rated less than 10W. Acer, the OEM PC maker, appears to be the #1 largest Intel Bay-Trail buyer in the world, and they are experiencing a lot of returns back from retailers because they complain that it's too slow and performs slower than their old computer before. Acer outlet stores are forced to sell them for a loss on eBay for around $150 shipped.

Intel also has this dirty little secret marketing gimmick trick. There's a Pentium N3540 "tablet" (not notebook) quad-core processor that PC makers are charging around $400 for it, and it generally performs slower than the Celeron 2957U and 2981U selling for around $250 if you can find one. By spreading the word "quad-core" around to unsuspected consumers, and secretly not telling them it's actually a "tablet" processor, Intel can easily charge more for that tablet processor and still leave people with a new computer that is SLOWER than their old one.

Manufacturers are also cutting costs like crazy. They've decided not to include a built-in DVD drive anymore. Also, Dell has decided to make 2GB memory RAM standard again in multiple models, and consumers can no longer upgrade to 4GB at checkout. Which means, Dell expects you to buy a new computer every year with a slightly-faster (slow) tablet processor again.

http://www.dell.com/us/p/inspiron-14-3451-laptop/pd?ref=PD_Family

A $329.99 Dell Inspiron 14" 3000-series with only 2GB RAM (ouch...) Dell is getting greedy here and knows it's an unethical decision. To make things worse, other PC makers will copy what Dell is doing right now with only 2GB RAMs, and all the PC makers intend to SLOW-DOWN their PCs by another 50% from now if many opt for the new Cherry-Trail Atom x3 series plus only 2GB RAM max again.

http://www.extremetech.com/computin...-line-early-14nm-cherry-trail-benchmarks-leak

So, if we now have a tablet processor plus only 2GB memory RAM max, we can see easily that new computers today are up to 80% slower than 2 years ago with Celeron 1037U and 4GB RAM.

 

[VirtualLarry]

Might want to read these threads too:

http://forums.anandtech.com/showthread.php?t=2416273

http://forums.anandtech.com/showthread.php?t=299983

http://forums.anandtech.com/showthread.php?t=2397291

 

[waltchan]

Forgot to mention one important thing. All the Intel Bay-Trail, Cherry-Trail, and upcoming Braswell tablet processors for desktops and laptops are designed only up to SATA II 3GB/PS max, and there's no development for SATA III 6GB/PS at this moment. Which means, you won't be getting a full solid-state performance speed if installed with any Atom-related tablet processors.

The minimum requirement for a Intel processor is Haswell Celeron 2955U and better, which has SATA III included.

 

[waltchan]

http://www.staples.com/Toshiba-Satel...roduct_1064941

Search slickdeals to find out how to get this laptop for $250. This one has a 3558U which is even faster than a 2955U.

Fry's Electronics recently had a deal on a Dell i3542-1000BK laptop with Celeron 2957U for only $218 as a one-day-sale (got one), lowest price I've seen so far with a Haswell notebook processor. There's just not too many Haswell Celeron notebooks around as 90% produced are now Bay-Trail tablet processors. It may be possible that PC makers are only buying Celeron tablet processors from now on, which marks the Dell i3542-1000BK a final-edition model for the cheapest laptop market with a notebook-quality processor.

 

[VirtualLarry]

Fry's Electronics recently had a deal on a Dell i3542-1000BK laptop with Celeron 2957U for only $218 as a one-day-sale (got one), lowest price I've seen so far with a Haswell notebook processor. There's just not too many Haswell Celeron notebooks around as 90% produced are now Bay-Trail tablet processors. It may be possible that PC makers are only buying Celeron tablet processors from now on, which marks the Dell i3542-1000BK a final-edition model for the cheapest laptop market with a notebook processor.

Staples had a Dell 15" with a Haswell i3, 4G / 500GB, for $299.99 B&M, and they put out an e-mail coupon for $100 off this morning that applies to this laptop.

 

[Shivansps]

Personally the newer verions of the BT Pentiums does not seems to be SO bad compared to older cpus.

I dont think the Pentium N3540 (and its mobile, not tablet, N is mobile), is slower than a Celeron 2957U at least not on CPU, it has almost twice the turbo freq, on gpu it will, still the igp of the N3540 is running at 900mhz, thats enoght to beat Intel HD2000 and enoght to be near of Intel HD2500 in ULV Ivys...

But yeah Haswell GT1 its gona kick its ass, even in a ULV. Still not bad.

 

[Vesku]

GPU is just too anemic imo, I'd consider a budget Cherry Trail quad core laptop as long as it has 16 EUs or at least 8 EUs that can boost close to 1GHz.

 

[escrow4]

Fry's Electronics recently had a deal on a Dell i3542-1000BK laptop with Celeron 2957U for only $218 as a one-day-sale (got one), lowest price I've seen so far with a Haswell notebook processor. There's just not too many Haswell Celeron notebooks around as 90% produced are now Bay-Trail tablet processors. It may be possible that PC makers are only buying Celeron tablet processors from now on, which marks the Dell i3542-1000BK a final-edition model for the cheapest laptop market with a notebook processor.

Its $218 of rubbish. Doesn't matter if its Haswell or Atom cores. Its a poky slow Celeron. I'd rather keep the $218 and save another $218 and buy me a real laptop CPU with some balls behind it. You are using it every day, why compromise?

 

[waltchan]

I dont think the Pentium N3540 (and its mobile, not tablet, N is mobile), is slower than a Celeron 2957U at least not on CPU, it has almost twice the turbo freq, on gpu it will, still the igp of the N3540 is running at 900mhz, thats enoght to beat Intel HD2000 and enoght to be near of Intel HD2500 in ULV Ivys...

Any Intel's Silvermont architecture processors are tablet-like quality, and smaller-size. These are very-fast, high-speed tablet-quality processors ready for the budget PC market. Single-thread is always low and poor, so Intel adds more cores into it to match the total performance of a real, notebook-size Haswell processor, and then charge more money than the faster dual-core Haswell again.

 

[Shivansps]

Im not sure if a 2.66ghz BT is slower than a 1.4Ghz Haswell, as i said is almost double frecuency, if the ST performance is anywhere near as a result of that its gona be considerable faster.


EDIT: Acording to notebookcheck:
The N3540 scores 43 in Cinebench R15 ST, The 2957U scores 55, the N3540 scores 158 in MT, the 2957U 105.
In geekbench you are gona find similar results too, about 25% slower in ST, but about 50% faster in MT.
The 3dmark 2013 physics score is way faster than that, N3540 is about 80% faster than the 2957U.

The IGP is NOT THAT BAD either, it should be not that far of what a 1037U was able to do.

The N3540 is mostly bad in other aspects, like no SATA3 and no enoght pci-e lanes, in the performance front is not that bad really, if i plan to do any gaming i will pick the 2957U any day, but N3540 its gona be my choice for a everyday pc, htpc or notebook over the Haswell ULV, fanless, low power, better video decoder than the haswell and kinda powerfull in MT.

Still even a G1820 is way better in every aspect, if we are talking about desktop.

 

[ninaholic37]

Im not sure if a 2.66ghz BT is slower than a 1.4Ghz Haswell, as i said is almost double frecuency, if the ST performance is anywhere near as a result of that its gona be considerable faster.

If you go by this and this, the Haswell Celeron U has about 2x the ST IPC of Bay Trail (172.143 vs. 88.333). I'm surprised the Haswell Celeron U isn't higher than 2x of Bay Trail though. If you have more comparisons, feel free to post them.

 

[VirtualLarry]

Im not sure if a 2.66ghz BT is slower than a 1.4Ghz Haswell, as i said is almost double frecuency, if the ST performance is anywhere near as a result of that its gona be considerable faster.

It is slower. My 1007U (1.5Ghz IB ULV) laptop is noticeably faster than my N2830 (2.41 BT-M) laptop. Some of that could be the GPU too.

 

[frozentundra123456]

These are all tablet processor types (all fake laptop processors that Intel wants you to believe they are real computer processors), and due to their very low cost in production, OEM PC makers are now buying them for their low-end models instead of the Core i-Series notebook processors. So, the standard-size notebook Haswell Celeron 2955U/2957U processor, while far superior, are now limited and hard to find in stores.

And now we are seeing desktop standard-size towers with only a tablet processor inside, which leaves a 90% empty-space wasted inside the case (HP 110-430 model). Meet the Celeron J1800, J1900, and Pentium J2900. Production is now up 80% more amount than LGA1155 Celeron G465/G470 it replaced 2 years ago, and performance on the single thread is 50% slower than before.

New computers you buy in stores today (mostly apply to budget models) are NOT necessary faster than your old ones, but instead they have become more energy-efficient plus longer lifespan due to less heat since they're now rated less than 10W. Acer, the OEM PC maker, appears to be the #1 largest Intel Bay-Trail buyer in the world, and they are experiencing a lot of returns back from retailers because they complain that it's too slow and performs slower than their old computer before. Acer outlet stores are forced to sell them for a loss on eBay for around $150 shipped.

Intel also has this dirty little secret marketing gimmick trick. There's a Pentium N3540 "tablet" (not notebook) quad-core processor that PC makers are charging around $400 for it, and it generally performs slower than the Celeron 2957U and 2981U selling for around $250 if you can find one. By spreading the word "quad-core" around to unsuspected consumers, and secretly not telling them it's actually a "tablet" processor, Intel can easily charge more for that tablet processor and still leave people with a new computer that is SLOWER than their old one.

Manufacturers are also cutting costs like crazy. They've decided not to include a built-in DVD drive anymore. Also, Dell has decided to make 2GB memory RAM standard again in multiple models, and consumers can no longer upgrade to 4GB at checkout. Which means, Dell expects you to buy a new computer every year with a slightly-faster (slow) tablet processor again.

http://www.dell.com/us/p/inspiron-14-3451-laptop/pd?ref=PD_Family

A $329.99 Dell Inspiron 14" 3000-series with only 2GB RAM (ouch...) Dell is getting greedy here and knows it's an unethical decision. To make things worse, other PC makers will copy what Dell is doing right now with only 2GB RAMs, and all the PC makers intend to SLOW-DOWN their PCs by another 50% from now if many opt for the new Cherry-Trail Atom x3 series plus only 2GB RAM max again.

http://www.extremetech.com/computin...-line-early-14nm-cherry-trail-benchmarks-leak

So, if we now have a tablet processor plus only 2GB memory RAM max, we can see easily that new computers today are up to 80% slower than 2 years ago with Celeron 1037U and 4GB RAM.

They arent "fake", just underpowered!! Just kidding, sort of. I do agree with you in principle, but the line between tablets and laptops is not not as clear as it once was. For 10 or 11 inch convertibles, i think they ate acceptible. For 13 inch or above laptops, i think they are a poor choice, and for sure they are an abomination in desktops. But to be fair, AMD does the same thing as well. My two biggest complaints are the confusing naming schemes from both amd and intel that make it very confusing for the average consumer and the fact that OEMs usually dont pass along the savings to the buyer.

On the other hand they have made it possible to get a 200.00 laptop, which was previously unheard of.

 

[VirtualLarry]

On the other hand they have made it possible to get a 200.00 laptop, which was previously unheard of.

Not exactly true. I picked up a Sempron w/2GB RAM and Win7 64-bit at WM for around $200, some BF past. Way before these Atom CPUs appeared at the low end.

 

[waltchan]

It is slower. My 1007U (1.5Ghz IB ULV) laptop is noticeably faster than my N2830 (2.41 BT-M) laptop. Some of that could be the GPU too.

Celeron 1007U Ivy Bridge was replaced to Celeron 2957U Haswell, and even noticeably faster than N2830 in my Toshiba that I have (I packed this one back into box ready for eBay sale because I can't stand its slow (tablet-quality) speed).

 

[Shivansps]

It is slower. My 1007U (1.5Ghz IB ULV) laptop is noticeably faster than my N2830 (2.41 BT-M) laptop. Some of that could be the GPU too.

Check that you are not running a wimboot system in the N2830 laptop, OEMs like to use that crap for BT systems. Performance is highly affected, or at least is that what i did noticed in my tablet when i moved to a normal installed os, specially in web browsing.

ST perf is not than far away from each other and MT performance is over 50% in every case, kinda in line for what i expected out of a 2.66Ghz BT vs a 1.4Ghz Haswell.

But also keep in mind that in a 2.41ghz BT vs 1.5Ghz Ivy the gap will be WAY bigger than in a N3540 vs 2957U. N2830 is dual, N3540 is quad. No dubt that the 1007U its gona be faster.

 

[waltchan]

On the other hand they have made it possible to get a 200.00 laptop, which was previously unheard of.

I've seen $200 laptops before since way back in 2007 on Black Friday day at Best Buy (it was a Toshiba with Canon printer for $229). Before Bay-Trails came out, only Black Friday is the day where laptops start below $200.