battle of the tiny cars

[AstroManLuca]

I'm going to have to disagree with that. The difference between premium fuel and the lower octane fuel is like what? $2-3 per tank? Not significant.

The difference between 20mpg and 40mpg is much more significant, considering you're burning ~double the amount of fuel at 20mpg as opposed to 40, or 15mpg as opposed to 30 for example.

Synthetic oil compared to regular oil? How often are you changing the oil anyway? Most modern engines go 7,000-15,000 miles between oil changes. Again in my opinion not that significant.

Now having said that I am not a fan of the Smart cars for many reasons, but not because it's fuel efficiency is negated by premium fuel or synthetic oil costs.

According to fueleconomy.gov, the Smart ForTwo has the same yearly fuel cost as the Ford Fiesta. The Smart gets 36 mpg overall while the Fiesta gets 33 mpg overall.

In other words, the premium requirement is equivalent to losing 3 mpg on a cost basis. That's a pretty big deal for a car like the Smart whose biggest selling point is economy.

It is a complex value equation, though. The Smart is quite cheap for a new car, at under $13k to start, making it a couple grand cheaper than most compacts. And of course it's ridiculously easy to park. But I'm not sure those two factors are big enough points in its favor when comparing it against a Fiesta, Fit, Sonic, 2, etc., in light of its many glaring weaknesses.

 

[Eli]

The iQ gets a whopping 36 city and 37 highway.. Ugh. Actually pretty good city numbers, now if only they could add 15-20mpg to the highway figure, it may almost be worth it.

 

[foghorn67]

The iQ gets a whopping 36 city and 37 highway.. Ugh. Actually pretty good city numbers, now if only they could add 15-20mpg to the highway figure, it may almost be worth it.

small cars (micro cars) tend to be handicapped when it comes to highway mileage. No room to massage aerodynamics.

 

[brainhulk]

small cars (micro cars) tend to be handicapped when it comes to highway mileage. No room to massage aerodynamics.

i drafted behind a big truck earlier today and got 60 mpg. true story

 

[pandemonium]

small cars (micro cars) tend to be handicapped when it comes to highway mileage. No room to massage aerodynamics.

^ Truth.

I've found EPA estimates are so off from observed - especially for manual vehicles. My father drives a completely stock 2007 Civic EX and gets 42mpg (~85% highway, 15% city). I drive an '06 RSX-S with a few mods and average 29mpg (~80% highway, 20% city). How you drive the vehicle really makes the difference. I just had to put on a new clutch and flywheel and during the break-in period, I managed to get 38.3mpg on my RSX...38.3!!!

i drafted behind a big truck earlier today and got 60 mpg. true story

...and a whole bunch of rocks kicked up on your front-end. Congratulations, you're saving money on gas to spend it sooner on a new paint job. And aggravating semi-trailer drivers at the same time. :thumbsup:

 

[brainhulk]

^ Truth.

I've found EPA estimates are so off from observed - especially for manual vehicles. My father drives a completely stock 2007 Civic EX and gets 42mpg (~85% highway, 15% city). I drive an '06 RSX-S with a few mods and average 29mpg (~80% highway, 20% city). How you drive the vehicle really makes the difference. I just had to put on a new clutch and flywheel and during the break-in period, I managed to get 38.3mpg on my RSX...38.3!!!



...and a whole bunch of rocks kicked up on your front-end. Congratulations, you're saving money on gas to spend it sooner on a new paint job. And aggravating semi-trailer drivers at the same time. :thumbsup:

not a big rig, ford f150

 

[pandemonium]

Oh, well then. In that case, that's perfectly fine. >.>

 

[homercles337]

The Ford Fiesta comes in an RS version.

 

[foghorn67]

i drafted behind a big truck earlier today and got 60 mpg. true story

Your car is a Buick Roadmaster compared to microcars.

 

[SparkyJJO]

i tailgated a big truck earlier today and got 60 mpg. true story

Fixed for you.

I don't care if you "get better mpg" by tailgating, it isn't safe and I don't want you rear-ending me if I have to hit the brakes suddenly (traffic, stupid deer crossing the road, whatever).

... although it could be convenient because then I'd get my rusting liftgate replaced :hmm:

 

[Eli]

small cars (micro cars) tend to be handicapped when it comes to highway mileage. No room to massage aerodynamics.

Hmm.. I'm not sure I agree with that. The Insight has a Cd of 0.25... I guess it's probably not a "micro" car, but it's pretty damn small.

I think it's more than aero.

 

[Eli]

Fixed for you.

I don't care if you "get better mpg" by tailgating, it isn't safe and I don't want you rear-ending me if I have to hit the brakes suddenly (traffic, stupid deer crossing the road, whatever).

... although it could be convenient because then I'd get my rusting liftgate replaced :hmm:

You don't have to tailgate. Even just normal following distance produces a measurable improvement.

 

[AstroManLuca]

Hmm.. I'm not sure I agree with that. The Insight has a Cd of 0.25... I guess it's probably not a "micro" car, but it's pretty damn small.

I think it's more than aero.

Maybe it's because small, less powerful engines have to work harder (at a larger percentage of their maximal output) to maintain highway speeds? Or is it that they're geared too short in order to make acceleration feel faster (again because of the small engine)?

I don't fully understand why tiny cars suffer in highway mileage. I think my Fit got poor mileage above a certain speed because the VTEC was constantly engaged above 3500 rpm, and the gearing was so short that I'd hit those revs at around 70 mph.

 

[IronWing]

I test drove the 2009 Yaris and thought it a piece of junk. It rattled, it shook, the steering wheel was off center from the driver position and could not be raised to accommodate my massive legs (picture legs of a Greek god here). In short, I didn't like the Yaris.

A 2008 Fit Sport is my daily driver. It is practical. Mine gets 33.5 mpg over 34k miles which I think low for a car this size. My coworker with a 2012 Sonic is averaging 38.x over 2100 miles. The Fit is very easy to drive, is an excellent city car, and I have zero passion for it. It has also has two recalls.

 

[pandemonium]

Maybe it's because small, less powerful engines have to work harder (at a larger percentage of their maximal output) to maintain highway speeds? Or is it that they're geared too short in order to make acceleration feel faster (again because of the small engine)?

I don't fully understand why tiny cars suffer in highway mileage. I think my Fit got poor mileage above a certain speed because the VTEC was constantly engaged above 3500 rpm, and the gearing was so short that I'd hit those revs at around 70 mph.

There are several factors that go into fuel efficiency, but I'll mention the more apparent related here. Micro cars are more dome shaped, than horizontally streamlined, and require more power to the wheels to maintain speed because of this, yet have smaller engines (for weight reduction purposes). Also, in general, the higher the speed, the more power you need to maintain that speed, to overcome increasing air resistance, drivetrain friction, etc...

Specifically regarding your Fit hitting VTEC at 70mph is due to all of these factors coming into play. VTEC engines (or any other port variable engines) place a strong emphasis on fuel economy with their tame profile, and a strong emphasis on peak power efficiency with their VTEC profile. There are several designs with stages in between, and even adaptive staging (some iVTECs), but for the most part the big problem with a small block engine is the lack of torque that they produce at lower RPMs (up to ~4k RPM; where typical overdrive gearing is set so engine noise doesn't become a nuisance at highway speeds). This causes shorter gearing to be necessary to make full use of the peak power that's typically available in higher RPMs. With all of this combined, you get great efficiency at lower speeds, and not so great at higher speeds.

It's not necesarilly a flaw in design, just not as purposed for highway speeds, and more for city driving.

 

[foghorn67]

Hmm.. I'm not sure I agree with that. The Insight has a Cd of 0.25... I guess it's probably not a "micro" car, but it's pretty damn small.

I think it's more than aero.

There are tons of variables when it comes to Cd. One of them is the area effective for the size.
Micro cars tend to be tall. The taller it is, the more are you need in front and back. The back is what stabilizes disturbances. Too much negative pressure in the back causes the air to rush in and tumble.
If you look at your insight, it is a gentle slope everywhere, including the back. The ratio of the hood length, cabin between A and B pillars, and the B and aft hatch area works quite well.
Honda had the right ingredients for this.

Take a look at the side profiles Scion iQ, Smart FourTwo, etc.

There isn't room in the front to punch a small hole in the air. And there is nothing in the back.

 

[brainhulk]

There are tons of variables when it comes to Cd. One of them is the area effective for the size.
Micro cars tend to be tall. The taller it is, the more are you need in front and back. The back is what stabilizes disturbances. Too much negative pressure in the back causes the air to rush in and tumble.
If you look at your insight, it is a gentle slope everywhere, including the back. The ratio of the hood length, cabin between A and B pillars, and the B and aft hatch area works quite well.
Honda had the right ingredients for this.

Take a look at the side profiles Scion iQ, Smart FourTwo, etc.

There isn't room in the front to punch a small hole in the air. And there is nothing in the back.

Do you think something like this would work for micro cars?

 

[piasabird]

http://flytheroad.com/concept.html

 

[waggy]

when my car was in the shop i got to drive both a fiesta and focus. i liked them both. While the focus was slightly bigger it got roughly the same MPG.

I looked at the Honda Fit. i kinda reminds me of the old honda accord hatchbacks. i love it.

 

[foghorn67]

Do you think something like this would work for micro cars?

No.

 

[disappoint]

Do you think something like this would work for micro cars?

Is that the all new 2013 Ambiguously Gay Duo car from SNL?

 

[Bignate603]

Do you think something like this would work for micro cars?

Definitely not. Besides it being ineffective at what you want it to do it would be expensive and dangerous.

 

[xanis]

Test drove both the Rio5 and the Sonic hatch today. It was a close call, but I wound up going for the Sonic. To me, it just seemed to have more character and to be more exciting. The Kia, while a great value for the money, seemed pretty boring in comparison. Both drove pretty well; the Kia was a little smoother and quieter, but Sonic definitely had more pep and seemed like it would be more fun to drive.

Unfortunately, the Sonic is a hard car to get around here... out of about 8 dealers, only 1 had the exact car I wanted. It's well over an hour away so I'm having my local dealer get it for me and I should be able to pick it up sometime this coming week.

FWIW: Sonic LTZ hatch (auto) in Crystal Red. Dealer offered me $19,120 excluding TTL.


EDIT: Almost exactly the same as this car: