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Battery Heater

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The differences between batteries designed for starting and those capable of serving in deep-cycle automotive applications are not as clear cut as they once were. There is a trade-off between cranking amps and reserve capacity, but many modern automotive batteries will offer plenty of cranking amps, regardless of their ability to be deep-cycled. For example, our D35 YellowTop offers 620 CCA and 100 minutes of reserve capacity, while our Group 35 RedTop offers 720 CCA and 90 minutes of reserve capacity. However, both batteries will probably provide enough cranking amps to replace just about any Group 35 battery. The Wikipedia entry ShawnD1 referenced also suggested AGM batteries are gel batteries or at the very least, failed to acknowledge that there are distinct differences between the two technologies.


Jim McIlvaine
eCare Manager, OPTIMA Batteries, Inc.
www.facebook.com/optimabatteries
 
LTC8K6 said:
Those RC's sound kinda' low, actually.
Click to expand...
When you're talking about car batteries, it usually doesn't matter. The #1 thing is that it can get the car started. After that, you can just idle the car and run things from the alternator.


while our Group 35 RedTop offers 720 CCA and 90 minutes of reserve capacity. However, both batteries will probably provide enough cranking amps to replace just about any Group 35 battery
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Indeed those Optima batteries are excellent. That 700 amp one I bought is group 35 and it's the most powerful one Walmart had. Worst was 400. Battery that came with the car is 390 (Toyota quality parts duuuurrrrrr).

Jim, are AGM batteries similar to hydrogen fuel cells?
 
ShawnD1 said:
When you're talking about car batteries, it usually doesn't matter. The #1 thing is that it can get the car started. After that, you can just idle the car and run things from the alternator.



Indeed those Optima batteries are excellent. That 700 amp one I bought is group 35 and it's the most powerful one Walmart had. Worst was 400. Battery that came with the car is 390 (Toyota quality parts duuuurrrrrr).
Click to expand...


Well, I was pointing out the typically higher RC of an actual deep cycle battery regarding my point about buying the proper battery rather than a dual purpose battery. If you need a DC, you should buy a DC.

The RC of your car battery can be critical to whether or not you make it to safety if your alternator fails...so, I would take RC into consideration when buying a replacement battery.


Jim, are AGM batteries similar to hydrogen fuel cells?
Click to expand...

Sure...that's why hfc's are in the same price range...
 
LTC8K6 said:
Sure...that's why hfc's are in the same price range...
Click to expand...
Actually they are about the same price range. One of those ~700A (cold) spiral shaped AGM batteries is $200 at Walmart. 700A * 12V = 8400W or 8.4kW. $200 / 8.4 = $23/kW. Hydrogen fuel cells are about $30 per kW.

So why don't we have lead battery electric cars? The power is there, but not enough amp hours. And they're too heavy. It would drive like.... well... like a Prius, but worse if you can believe that.

Also I mixed up AGM with something else. What's the one where gases are used? Whatever type that was, it sounded a lot like a hydrogen fuel cell, but it was self-contained whereas a hydrogen fuel cell has input and exhaust. Like instead of supplying hydrogen as hydrogen, you would charge it as a battery to make hydrogen. Usually that's called overcharging and it makes batteries explode, but for this one case it was intentional.
 
ShawnD1 said:
Actually they are about the same price range. One of those ~700A (cold) spiral shaped AGM batteries is $200 at Walmart. 700A * 12V = 8400W or 8.4kW. $200 / 8.4 = $23/kW. Hydrogen fuel cells are about $30 per kW.

So why don't we have lead battery electric cars? The power is there, but not enough amp hours. And they're too heavy. It would drive like.... well... like a Prius, but worse if you can believe that.

Also I mixed up AGM with something else. What's the one where gases are used? Whatever type that was, it sounded a lot like a hydrogen fuel cell, but it was self-contained whereas a hydrogen fuel cell has input and exhaust. Like instead of supplying hydrogen as hydrogen, you would charge it as a battery to make hydrogen. Usually that's called overcharging and it makes batteries explode, but for this one case it was intentional.
Click to expand...

I think you may have kw and kwh confused...
 
Block heater would be the better choice for really cold climates. Also be sure you check the battery terminals are clean and tight, test the alternator is charging properly. And in winter, you should consider going to 5W30 motor oil (most cars can use this, check owner's manual) That weight of oil will crank over much easier and if you use synthetic oil, it will crank even better and get oil to the motor parts much faster.
 
ShawnD1 said:
Department of transportation reports them in kW.
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The cost of fuel cells per Kw is basically an unknown number. $30 was a goal that has not been achieved.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hydrogen_vehicle#Fuel_cell_cost

Fuel cell cost

Currently, hydrogen fuel cells are costly to produce and are fragile. As of October 2009, Fortune magazine estimated the cost of producing the Honda Clarity at $300,000 per car.[32] Engineers are studying how to produce inexpensive fuel cells that are robust enough to survive the bumps and vibrations that all automobiles experience. Also, many designs require rare substances such as platinum as a catalyst in order to work properly. Such a catalyst can also become contaminated by impurities in the hydrogen supply. In the past few years, however, a nickel-tin nanometal catalyst has been under development which may lower the cost of cells.[33]

Fuel cells are generally priced in USD/kW, and data is scarce regarding costs. Ballard Power Systems is virtually alone in publishing such data. Their 2005 figure was $73 USD/kW (based on high volume manufacturing estimates), which they said was on track to achieve the U.S. DoE's 2010 goal of $30 USD/kW. This would achieve closer parity with internal combustion engines for automotive applications, allowing a 100 kW fuel cell to be produced for $3000. 100 kW is about 134 hp.[34]
 
LTC8K6, there are more than 60 different BCI group sizes of batteries and the two marine batteries you cited are not sizes typically used in automotive applications. We do offer some larger batteries, like our Group D27F YellowTop (830CCA, 150 RC) and Group D31M BlueTop (900CCA, 155RC), but those are most-often used in deep-cycle applications, like trolling motors or RV use.

ShawnD1, AGM batteries are actually more similar to traditional, flooded lead-acid batteries than gel batteries. A hydrogen fuel cell comparison for an automotive battery would probably go more toward something like the lithium-ion batteries, which typically retail for several thousand dollars and can be found in some high-end sports cars and race cars. Our batteries do have a recombinant system, so acid does not evaporate under normal operating conditions. It can lose water via overcharging, gassing and subsequent venting, but the acid is still in the battery in the form of sulfates.


Jim McIlvaine
eCare Manager, OPTIMA Batteries, Inc.
www.facebook.com/optimabatteries
 
OptimaJim said:
LTC8K6, there are more than 60 different BCI group sizes of batteries and the two marine batteries you cited are not sizes typically used in automotive applications. We do offer some larger batteries, like our Group D27F YellowTop (830CCA, 150 RC) and Group D31M BlueTop (900CCA, 155RC), but those are most-often used in deep-cycle applications, like trolling motors or RV use.

ShawnD1, AGM batteries are actually more similar to traditional, flooded lead-acid batteries than gel batteries. A hydrogen fuel cell comparison for an automotive battery would probably go more toward something like the lithium-ion batteries, which typically retail for several thousand dollars and can be found in some high-end sports cars and race cars. Our batteries do have a recombinant system, so acid does not evaporate under normal operating conditions. It can lose water via overcharging, gassing and subsequent venting, but the acid is still in the battery in the form of sulfates.


Jim McIlvaine
eCare Manager, OPTIMA Batteries, Inc.
www.facebook.com/optimabatteries
Click to expand...

Try to read my posts. I am arguing that if you need a DC battery, then you should buy a DC battery and not a "sort of" DC battery. There is no need for me to suggest DC batteries that fit in place of starting batteries.

That is what you need to do to sell those expensive Optima batteries. 😛
 
LTC8K6, I did read your posts. In post #27, you suggested the reserve capacity ratings of our group 35 batteries sounded low. In post #28, you then posted the ratings of two significantly larger batteries of different sizes, a Group 29 and a Group 27 battery. If you want to make some sort of comparison, at least select batteries of identical group sizes, whether they are SLI, dual-purpose or what you consider to be deep-cycle. Even a comparison of pounds per cranking amp or RC would at least help show the trade-offs in battery chemistry. If you are going to include price in your comparisons, you should also include warranty terms as well.

The OP started this thread about his girlfriend's car, which is far more likely to take a battery like a Group 35, than his girlfriend's motorhome, which is more likely to need a deep-cycle battery of the size you suggested.


Jim McIlvaine
eCare Manager, OPTIMA Batteries, Inc.
www.facebook.com/optimabatteries
 
alfa147x said:
Stupid question of the day: How do you keep from overcharging your battery?
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"Automatic" battery chargers you buy from the store will turn off when they detect full charge.
"Manual" will not, and you need to manually turn the thing off when it's full. It's full based on voltage.

Don't worry about your car overcharging. Modern cars have electronics to prevent overcharging. Needing to pour distilled water in your car battery is a relic from the stone age.
 
OptimaJim said:
LTC8K6, I did read your posts. In post #27, you suggested the reserve capacity ratings of our group 35 batteries sounded low. In post #28, you then posted the ratings of two significantly larger batteries of different sizes, a Group 29 and a Group 27 battery. If you want to make some sort of comparison, at least select batteries of identical group sizes, whether they are SLI, dual-purpose or what you consider to be deep-cycle. Even a comparison of pounds per cranking amp or RC would at least help show the trade-offs in battery chemistry. If you are going to include price in your comparisons, you should also include warranty terms as well.

The OP started this thread about his girlfriend's car, which is far more likely to take a battery like a Group 35, than his girlfriend's motorhome, which is more likely to need a deep-cycle battery of the size you suggested.


Jim McIlvaine
eCare Manager, OPTIMA Batteries, Inc.
www.facebook.com/optimabatteries
Click to expand...

I'm still not paying for an Optima. 😀
 
[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]alfa147x, to add onto the information already provided by ShawnD1, the best maintainers are microprocessor-controlled and there are two basic[/FONT][FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]types of maintenance chargers. Fully-automatic, “multi-stage or multi-step” chargers will monitor the battery and charge it as necessary. Multi-stage maintainers will charge at varying voltages and varying amperage (rarely exceeding 2 amps). Some of these multi-step chargers are also capable of being regular battery chargers (7 amps or more). These types of chargers are preferred. [/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]Traditional “float” chargers provide constant voltage with tapering amperage to the battery, even when it is fully-charged. For float-charging, we recommend 1 amp max, 13.2-13.8 volts. These are OK too, but the multi-stage chargers are a better option.[/FONT]


[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]Jim McIlvaine[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]eCare Manager, OPTIMA Batteries, Inc.[/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, sans-serif]www.facebook.com/optimabatteries [/FONT]
 
Calling OptimaJim!
I have a dodge with the 12V cummins 5.9 L engine. It has two group 27 batteries in parallel.
I am relocating the batteries aft in a box under a custom bed. Group 27's weigh about 47 pounds each and have capacities around 675 CCA.
What if I replaced the two with one 4D with 1000CCA? The 4D weighs 97 so that part is negligible. I hear that parallel batteries are a necessary evil that would be better to avoid, things like on bad cell taking out both batts, the extra connections and cables, etc.
What do you think? It makes no difference with regards to the box construction.
 
Hi skyking,

I think this question might be more appropriate to ask your local Dodge dealer. I don't know what the cranking requirements are for that engine, but if your OEM Group 27s combine for 1350 cold cranking amps and you're considering a battery that offers only 1000 cold cranking amps, you could run into some issues. Our Group 27 YellowTops are rated at 830 cold cranking amps and weigh about 53 pounds, but 97 pounds fairly light for a Group 4D. It would also be a good idea to review the warranty terms on any battery you consider. You can view our warranty information here.


Jim McIlvaine
eCare Manager, OPTIMA Batteries, Inc.
www.facebook.com/optimabatteries
 
Thanks Jim. The engine cranks OK with a single battery in warm weather, but it is fitted with grid heaters in the intake that draw 90 amps prior to start in cold weather. the added battery is for reserve capacity for that grid heater.
The Group 4D I mentioned has around 320 minutes reserve capacity. That's a 34% increase in reserve. I had the weight wrong it is 99 pounds.
I had looked at lightweight and heavyweight 8D's as well, 117 pounds and 134 pounds, 1100 CCA and 1500 CCA.
 
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