Batman Arkham City, no physics at all if you don't use physx ?

[Seero]

I just read my DirectX SDK license. It clearly states that I have the right to distribute my software. The only limitations it puts on it is it must be clearly marked as my own software, it can't use M$ logos or appear to be a M$ product, M$ is not liable for any damages as a result of my software, I can not distribute software that is intended to damage or otherwise compromise the system it is installed on, and it must be for the Windows platform. It does not state that the license is for non commercial use only. There is definitely no commercial limitation put on the software I make using the SDK.

If your program doesn't use any proprietary software, library, dlls or simply code from others, then yes, it is free. DirectX is proprietary. You don't need SDK to write DirectX calls, you need the library. You need license to use these proprietary libraries. Without them, your code won't run.

 

[railven]

of course you get high gpu usage in the benchmark since there is no framerate cap there.
btw you are running DX11? so are you going to claim DX11 runs fine for you?

Well, those are just the screen shots I have on hand, it isn't like I recorded me playing. I got a few screen shots showing the difference between Tess off and Tess normal since so many claim there is no difference. This game goes the Crysis way - there is tessellation everywhere, opinions on over-tessellations aside. From brick walls, trees, to cobble stone walk ways - all tessellated.
As for DX11 performance, "runs for" me is definitely subjective. I can run the game with DX11 on, Tess Normal, and PhysX high. There is a hitch at the start of almost every room (I'd assume the textures are being preloaded to my system or something) and during that brief period yes my FPS tanks, but after that I hover 30-50FPS easy. 30FPS for me is very acceptable in this game.
What are you getting for DX11 performance?

@Railraven: Force vsync on in the driver and tell us what your GPU load is then.

I use V-synch and Triple Buffering via Riva Tuner's overrider. The combination of DX11 + PhysX on High keeps my system on it's toes. I get 80%+ GPU usage and 50%+ load on my PhysX Card.
It could be just that my hardware is older thus requires more juice, but I wouldn't think my 5870 is that far from say a 6950.

I posted this earlier in this thread - AMD users the 11.11b drivers improved DX11 performance a lot. I went from testing in the 15-25 FPS with DX11 to 35-45 FPS with DX11. Nvidia should release a fix soon I'd believe.
Also note: there is PhysX everywhere in this game. This is by far the best usage of it to date that I've seen. From carpets on the ground you can kick around to fog/steam everywhere. DYnamic or static, that little extra makes the game much more immersive. Kudos to Rocksteady/nVidia for making PhysX actually worth the performance hit - for once.

 

[toyota]

sorry but the game is just not smooth in DX11 for antbody from what I can tell. the hitches are quite annoying and framerates can change way too drastically for it to be worth using. and I do not see how drivers could fix it since it seems to be a game problem.

and I have fired the game up in DX11 and do not see any difference except in a few spots that use tessellation. maybe I need to look a little harder but I would love to see a direct comparison to DX9.

 

[ViRGE]

How did you know the cut from Valve did not include the cut from MS?

How do I know that Valve's cut didn't also include the secret percentage The Illuminati collect for their "world domination" slush fund? I hate to be snarky, but do you realize how ridiculous that sounds? None of what you propose is documented anywhere. It can be confirmed by no one. You're basically proposing a conspiracy theory at this point.

Anyways, this is far better than forum quotes. I believe it can be a strong evidence, but cannot be used as a proof. I, on the other hand, was asked for a proof, or retract my statement. Why did not you address my inquiry since my first post to you?

I'm going to say this one last time: you're the one making the extraordinary claim. The onus of proof is on you because you're the person who claims status quo is not true. That's the entire basis of the "extraordinary claims" maxim.

My turn for evidence...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Independent_video_game_development

I don't think traditionally financially more accessible means free. The cut to Valve is not we are talking about, the cost of tools also not what we are talking about, we are talking specifically cuts towards MS.

You do realize what you just quoted proves my point, right? The article specifically notes that only consoles have license fees. (The bit about homebrew is also for consoles; homebrew by definition is software created for closed systems without the approval of the system's guardian)

 

[NIGELG]

In that case, supply proofs to your claims, you made quite a few.

Oh for God's sake just give it up.

 

[railven]

sorry but the game is just not smooth in DX11 for antbody from what I can tell. the hitches are quite annoying and framerates can change way too drastically for it to be worth using. and I do not see how drivers could fix it since it seems to be a game problem.

and I have fired the game up in DX11 and do not see any difference except in a few spots that use tessellation. maybe I need to look a little harder but I would love to see a direct comparison to DX9.

I can understand that, about the DX11 issue. I got use to it since, again, it seems to mostly tank just at the start of every zone. After that initial hitch, my frame rate hasn't tanked below 30 FPS, and the only hitches I get are direct to, my guess, lots of PhysX effects (even used in the shockwaves when knocking out enemies - really? haha.)

Here are just some comparative pictures I took a while back. It is EVERYWHERE. I don't understand how anyone can't see it.

Tess Off:

Tess Normal:

Tess Off:

Tess Normal:

Tess Off:

Tess Normal:

Tess Off:

Tess Normal:

If the performance hit is acceptable, the game does look better with DX11 on. While I wish I could maintain solid 60 FPS, I've yet to experience truly game breaking FPS drops after that initial hitch. I can Glide around town and pan around, FPS drops but again - still not below 30s.

 

[toyota]

thanks for the pics and yeah its noticeable there but really the textures are so blurry that tessellation does not add much in the end. maybe forcing AF may help since the game does not seem to use it. I know it cleared up some areas when I forced it but low res texures are still in many places so that cant be overcome. the streets look great though in DX9 or DX11 and do not appear to need any AF like other parts of the game do.

 

[railven]

thanks for the pics and yeah its noticeable there but really the textures are so blurry that tessellation does not add much in the end. maybe forcing AF may help since the game does not seem to use it. I know it cleared up some areas when I forced it but low res texures are still in mant places so that cant be overcome. the streets look great though in DX9 or DX10 and do not appera to ned any AF like other parts of the game do.

Yeah, the pictures are blurry for two reasons:
1) I used Afterburner to screen capture (even on high quality I'm not impressed with the capture quality)
2) I was using the Batscope or whatever you want to call it haha. Where you pretty much zoom into first person view, and only objects in the direct center stay in focus.

I tried my best to focus on the Tessellation parts of the images (ie zooming in.)

I guess nVidia beta drivers are out - hopefully they improve DX11 somewhat for team green. I'm still hoping Rocksteady themselves do something about the horrid performance.

 

[Grooveriding]

Yeah, the pictures are blurry for two reasons:
1) I used Afterburner to screen capture (even on high quality I'm not impressed with the capture quality)
2) I was using the Batscope or whatever you want to call it haha. Where you pretty much zoom into first person view, and only objects in the direct center stay in focus.

I tried my best to focus on the Tessellation parts of the images (ie zooming in.)

I guess nVidia beta drivers are out - hopefully they improve DX11 somewhat for team green. I'm still hoping Rocksteady themselves do something about the horrid performance.

Well I can see some difference in those images.

Game is unplayable for me under DX11, maybe it is related to my resolution, I see Toyota is saying the same though. A lot of people are just not even bothering and waiting to see if they fix it.

I can't see them just leaving the game as it is now for DX11, it's a mess and runs horribly in relation to the graphics not being very impressive at all.

 

[toyota]

I do not understand what their point of fooling with DX11 was in the first place. they never really discussed what features we would have or even showed what the differences would look like. on top of that, its clear they never even played the game for 1 minute in DX11 or they would have noticed the issues. I just do not get why or how some companies operate like that.

 

[Lonbjerg]

Well I can see some difference in those images.

Game is unplayable for me under DX11, maybe it is related to my resolution, I see Toyota is saying the same though. A lot of people are just not even bothering and waiting to see if they fix it.

I can't see them just leaving the game as it is now for DX11, it's a mess and runs horribly in relation to the graphics not being very impressive at all.

But you don't whine about PhysX anymore, so I take it that is working fine?

 

[toyota]

But you don't whine about PhysX anymore, so I take it that is working fine?

Physx is not working perfectly but its okay I guess. besides the interactive fog/smoke, its still not the least bit impressive to me.

 

[railven]

Well I can see some difference in those images.

Game is unplayable for me under DX11, maybe it is related to my resolution, I see Toyota is saying the same though. A lot of people are just not even bothering and waiting to see if they fix it.

I can't see them just leaving the game as it is now for DX11, it's a mess and runs horribly in relation to the graphics not being very impressive at all.

There are new Beta Drives from nVIdia, you can give them a shot and see if they help. The DX11 code path is clearly borked some where or they reached too high with Tessellation with current hardware.

I personally think the AMD hotfix just limits the level of tessellation used (regardless what the slider is set to.) I'm gonna try it using the AMD Optimization option from CCP see if it changes visuals/performance.

I do not understand what their point of fooling with DX11 was in the first place. they never really discussed what features we would have or even showed what the differences would look like. on top of that, its clear they never even played the game for 1 minute in DX11 or they would have noticed the issues. I just do not get why or how some companies operate like that.

Yeah, I completely agree. I made a huge rant thread in my usual forums because I was looking forward to this game for such a long time. What through me over the top was the 3-week delay on the guise that it was to fix the PC version. Then it is revealed the game is literally unplayable in DX11, and then someone reports that the last time the code was compiled was sometime in September - which shows the delay wasn't to fix anything but just promote more console sales.

As for PhysX in this game, I use a Radeon+GeForce hybrid system. There was zero offloading in PhysX build ending in 1107 (the latest version being coupled with the recent beta drivers.) I had to revert back to the build ending in 1062 for the mod to work. After doing that I got PhysX offloading properly. Before that I thought it was my card bottlenecking so I tested it with a GTX 460 SC which showed the same results (guess the PhysX was offloading to my CPU, which suprisingly handled it, sure I'd drop to 17 FPS in some scenes but I was expecting to tank completely.)

Anyways, this game still has issues, and play it in whatever method it is best playable for you. Hopefully they fix it soon, because I'd love to run this game at 60FPS locked with Norm tess ala BF3.

Suprisingly enough regardless what the "recommended configuration for PhysX" I can run DX9 + PhysX High with a 5870+9800GTX+ 60 FPS locked without an issue.

 

[Lonbjerg]

Physx is not working perfectly but its okay I guess. besides the interactive fog/smoke, its still not the least bit impressive to me.

I don't care what you think 🙂

 

[notty22]

Here is the link to the x64 win7 beta drivers.
There is no direct mention of Batman, but I noted x79 issues are being addressed.
GeForce 290.36 Driver


http://www.geforce.com/Drivers/Results/40030

 

[railven]

Here is the link to the x64 win7 beta drivers.
There is no direct mention of Batman, but I noted x79 issues are being addressed.
GeForce 290.36 Driver


http://www.geforce.com/Drivers/Results/40030

About it for Batman:

Updates PhysX System Software to version 9.11.11.07 for the best PhysX experience in Batman: Arkham City.

But it could be a PhysX issue that is causing awful DX11 performance? Worth a shot.

 

[Seero]

How do I know that Valve's cut didn't also include the secret percentage The Illuminati collect for their "world domination" slush fund? I hate to be snarky, but do you realize how ridiculous that sounds? None of what you propose is documented anywhere. It can be confirmed by no one. You're basically proposing a conspiracy theory at this point.

Let me straight up my inquiry. First, I am not clear to which that cut from valve is about. If it is simply digital distribution, then it has nothing to do with MS. I said that because I don't know, not because I know, it was a question. After reading a bit, I don't think valve checks all submissions on infringment of IPs, so I edited the post to ask if your friend check the licensing on libraries that he used. It has nothing to do with Illuminati. The Illuminati part is somehow my original bolded question is ignored, the one you said you don't know what I am asking about. I came back to this point almost every single post, but it seems it was invisible somehow.

I'm going to say this one last time: you're the one making the extraordinary claim. The onus of proof is on you because you're the person who claims status quo is not true. That's the entire basis of the "extraordinary claims" maxim.

I am sure that this is not going to be the last time. My claim is the exact opposite of yours, which I have defined many many post ago. I said, the required license is not free, you said it is. Isn't fair that we both try to get proofs? Or evidence to support this claim? I have no problem searching for evidence for a debate. I have a problem with the "Solid proof or retract" attitude. Tell me you missed that too.

To me, proprietary means it is not free. To you, if it is proprietary to MS that operates upon windows, then it is free after purchasing windows. Am I mistaken? I assume something that is IP of something is not free unless stated otherwise. To you, this is an extraordinary claim. When PhysX doesn't work on AMD cards, while Nvidia said they offered the licensing to AMD, some claimed that "AMD should not need to pay Nvidia for PhysX." Was I mistaken that too? Extraordinary claim?

Suppose "AMD doesn't need to pay to support PhysX" and Nvidia stated that it is open to AMD, why don't AMD support it? This isn't a new question. No one ever pop in and ask for proofs. Why? Illuminati much? Nvidia paid game devs for X. Nvidia paid game devs to block. Nvidia bad bad bad. Where is the proof? Not once I saw the attitude that is now being used upon me.

You do realize what you just quoted proves my point, right? The article specifically notes that only consoles have license fees. (The bit about homebrew is also for consoles; homebrew by definition is software created for closed systems without the approval of the system's guardian)

No, I don't realize that. I explicitly bolded what is important. We both realized that there is an extra charge on consoles which you describe is due to a "close" system. Then you go on with computer is "Open".... Well, that is an assumption. The key bolded words are that indie programmers use homebrew developement libraries, again, new terms, but I don't think directX related libraries are homebrew.

 

[wahdangun]

I thought we had agreed on that somewhere around post 371. Just to by precise, I know you are looking for evidence in terms of money, and I already told you I couldn't prove it on post 371. You agreed about the need of licensing on 372. I said, lets resolve the Dx issue first before building your argument based on an assumption that it is indeed free.


How did you know the cut from Valve did not include the cut from MS? Did your friend check and see if libraries s/he that is IP of some other identify used do not need extra licensing?

http://www.valvesoftware.com/legal.html

Anyways, this is far better than forum quotes. I believe it can be a strong evidence, but cannot be used as a proof. I, on the other hand, was asked for a proof, or retract my statement. Why did not you address my inquiry since my first post to you?

My turn for evidence...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Independent_video_game_development

I don't think traditionally financially more accessible means free. The cut to Valve is not we are talking about, the cost of tools also not what we are talking about, we are talking specifically cuts towards MS.

oh come on just admit it you are wrong.

virge even prove it there are no cost using direct X library. please give us prove that valve cut include M$ license fee if not just admit it you are wrong

 

[Grooveriding]

About it for Batman:



But it could be a PhysX issue that is causing awful DX11 performance? Worth a shot.

I don't think its the physx, there are the usual unreasonable slowdowns when some smoke comes round, but it feels like it is the game and something to do with DX11 when I try to play.

Ah, it looks like they do know DX11 is totally broken and are going to fix it. For now they say to play the game in DX9. Not ideal for a single player game you generally play once and put away. I am just putting it on hold to see if they can fix the DX11 mess.

http://community.batmanarkhamcity.com/forums/showthread.php/10585-PC-DirectX-11-Issues-Please-Read?


Could be a long wait, I think GFWL has similar certification wait times as the 360 does.

 

[Seero]

oh come on just admit it you are wrong.

virge even prove it there are no cost using direct X library. please give us prove that valve cut include M$ license fee if not just admit it you are wrong

Proof? Does it not obvious that ViRGE friend also BELIEVE it is free but probably never verify it? There is a difference between "Why should I pay?" vs "Well I acquired the appropriate licenses for free, or terms that doesn't cost money." Am I picking bones out of an egg here? Or is that just an opinion from a Indie programmer?

 

[MrK6]

I don't think its the physx, there are the usual unreasonable slowdowns when some smoke comes round, but it feels like it is the game and something to do with DX11 when I try to play.

Ah, it looks like they do know DX11 is totally broken and are going to fix it. For now they say to play the game in DX9. Not ideal for a single player game you generally play once and put away. I am just putting it on hold to see if they can fix the DX11 mess.

http://community.batmanarkhamcity.com/forums/showthread.php/10585-PC-DirectX-11-Issues-Please-Read?


Could be a long wait, I think GFWL has similar certification wait times as the 360 does.

Ditto. Glad I saw the thread, even more glad the game was only $20. If there's a third I think I might wait until it's in the bargain bin.

 

[railven]

I don't think its the physx, there are the usual unreasonable slowdowns when some smoke comes round, but it feels like it is the game and something to do with DX11 when I try to play.

Ah, it looks like they do know DX11 is totally broken and are going to fix it. For now they say to play the game in DX9. Not ideal for a single player game you generally play once and put away. I am just putting it on hold to see if they can fix the DX11 mess.

http://community.batmanarkhamcity.com/forums/showthread.php/10585-PC-DirectX-11-Issues-Please-Read?


Could be a long wait, I think GFWL has similar certification wait times as the 360 does.

Good point on that. I said I'd expect a Patch late December if ever. But, who knows. They might not even bother considering their "money-maker" is the console version - which has had its fair share of bugs also.

Hopefully someone fixes it, the game is just as good as the first one, and I'd love to rid myself of that short hitch while keeping the eye candy.

 

[Lonbjerg]

About it for Batman:



But it could be a PhysX issue that is causing awful DX11 performance? Worth a shot.

LOL
No, it's their bad coding of DX11 causing that....nice try on a spin though...but utterly worthless.

 

[ViRGE]

I am sure that this is not going to be the last time. My claim is the exact opposite of yours, which I have defined many many post ago. I said, the required license is not free, you said it is. Isn't fair that we both try to get proofs? Or evidence to support this claim? I have no problem searching for evidence for a debate. I have a problem with the "Solid proof or retract" attitude. Tell me you missed that too.

The problem is that the entire basis of your claim is "prove me wrong or I must be right". We've been over this: you can't absolutely disprove something that does not exist. There is literally no way (logically speaking) that I could ever satisfactorily prove the non-existence of something, because you could always propose a new theory to explain the lack of proof. Logic aside, at this point I do not believe you could ever be satisfied with a response even if Steve Ballmer submitted it in writing, so I'd love to know what proof it would take to make you happy.

To me, proprietary means it is not free. To you, if it is proprietary to MS that operates upon windows, then it is free after purchasing windows.

Again, free as in beer is not free as in speech. Proprietary means it is not free as in speech; proprietary can still be (and in this case is) free as in beer.

No, I don't realize that. I explicitly bolded what is important. We both realized that there is an extra charge on consoles which you describe is due to a "close" system. Then you go on with computer is "Open".... Well, that is an assumption. The key bolded words are that indie programmers use homebrew developement libraries, again, new terms, but I don't think directX related libraries are homebrew.

Homebrew only applies to consoles. I explained this before. You're trying to take a concept from consoles (a closed system) and apply it to computers.

 

[AdamK47]

Proof? Does it not obvious that ViRGE friend also BELIEVE it is free but probably never verify it? There is a difference between "Why should I pay?" vs "Well I acquired the appropriate licenses for free, or terms that doesn't cost money." Am I picking bones out of an egg here? Or is that just an opinion from a Indie programmer?

C'mon man. Just give it up and get out of that hole you dug.