Bat Mitvah?? help

[BrokenVisage]

Bat Manzvah - The Jew Knight Rises

 

[MotionMan]

Bat Mitzvah is at 12, Bar Mitzvah is at 13.

Not necessarily. ALL of the Bat Mitzvahs I have been to were for 13 year olds.

MotionMan

 

[ThePresence]

Not necessarily. ALL of the Bat Mitzvahs I have been to were for 13 year olds.

MotionMan

Then they're doing it wrong.

 

[MotionMan]

Then they're doing it wrong.

If you say so.

Shall I stone them?

MotionMan

 

[ThePresence]

If you say so.

Shall I stone them?

MotionMan

Nah, that's a bit extreme.
Educate them.

 

[crashtestdummy]

Then they're doing it wrong.

I get what you're saying, but I'm not sure there's much value to the idea of claiming that someone is "doing [a Bat Mtzvah] wrong" by having the torah reading at 13. The Bat Mitzvah has been around less than a century (it started with Mordechai Kaplan's daughter), and there is no Halakha associated with it. The (new) tradition says women reach adulthood at 12 because Kaplan decided it so, and because women do hit puberty earlier than men. There is no requirement that their first trip to the bimah be at any particular age, however.

 

[MotionMan]

Nah, that's a bit extreme.
Educate them.

Educate me with a link or two.

MotionMan

 

[ThePresence]

I get what you're saying, but I'm not sure there's much value to the idea of claiming that someone is "doing [a Bat Mtzvah] wrong" by having the torah reading at 13. The Bat Mitzvah has been around less than a century (it started with Mordechai Kaplan's daughter), and there is no Halakha associated with it. The (new) tradition says women reach adulthood at 12 because Kaplan decided it so, and because women do hit puberty earlier than men. There is no requirement that their first trip to the bimah be at any particular age, however.

There is no halacha that a ceremony or torah reading take place at all. All it is, is marking the point where a child becomes an adult, and now partakes in all mitzvos as an adult does, and is responsible for his or her actions. Which is 12 years old for a female and 13 for a male. That IS halacha. Kaplan did not come up with the 12 year thing, that is halacha. All he did was be the first one to allow a girl to read the Torah. Torah reading is just a tradition where it shows publicly that the child is now an adult, because they can perform torah reading for others. Not necessary, but traditional.

 

[ThePresence]

Educate me with a link or two.

MotionMan

I'm sure I can find links, but these are things I was taught and learned extensively from a young age. Links are not where I know these things from.

 

[crashtestdummy]

There is no halacha that a ceremony or torah reading take place at all. All it is, is marking the point where a child becomes an adult, and now partakes in all mitzvos as an adult does, and is responsible for his or her actions. Which is 12 years old for a female and 13 for a male. That IS halacha. Torah reading is just a tradition where it shows publicly that the child is now an adult, because they can perform torah reading for others. Not necessary, but traditional.

You are actually correct here. I knew there was a mention of 13 for boys, but I didn't know there was a specific mention of 12 for girls, which there is. It's far less explicit than the requirements for boys, obviously, but does clearly delineate an age of adulthood.

I hereby accept that you're correct.

 

[ThePresence]

You are actually correct here. I knew there was a mention of 13 for boys, but I didn't know there was a specific mention of 12 for girls, which there is. It's far less explicit than the requirements for boys, obviously, but does clearly delineate an age of adulthood.

I hereby accept that you're correct.

Thanks. I studied extensively for many years in several yeshivos and rabbinical seminaries, so don't feel bad.