Basic classes to carry guns?

[RampantAndroid]

To even own a gun I think you should be thoroughly vetted (and trained, of course). I don't think you should be allowed to have one in your possession unless you are in the military, an officer of the law with an immediate need for a firearm (i.e. most will not carry them as a rule), or demonstrably and legally hunting, and that should be thoroughly controlled, and you should relinquish your hunting weapons when not actually hunting. Period.

Well, a lot of people including the SCOTUS disagree with you, pretty much. So do I. I'd go in to the statistics showing that violent crime is WAY higher in the UK and AU, but somehow I doubt you'd listen.

Well and it certainly does, in ballistic gel. That's the point I was trying to make to the other two. Unless you're shooting the Human Blob, there's no point in penetrating 30" of ballistic gel. But a FMJ .45, due to surface area & ballistics, does not penetrate hard objects (body armor, metal, glass) significantly better than a JHP .45. That is not the case with smaller, lighter rounds.

I already gave you an example: a windshield. .45JHP won't do it, FMJ might just depending on the angle.

 

[Zargon]

some hollowpoints now can penetrate windoshields and not break apart


hornaday and speer are two companies I am aware of that can do it.

you are going to want a fully bonded one


a lot of the cheaper ones are going to fall apart going through them, though

 

[Nebor]

A JHP .45 will certainly penetrate a windshield. I'd guess that you've never shot a windshield with anything if you think otherwise. Even so, plenty of youtube videos out there to show you the truth.

 

[RampantAndroid]

A JHP .45 will certainly penetrate a windshield. I'd guess that you've never shot a windshield with anything if you think otherwise. Even so, plenty of youtube videos out there to show you the truth.

Everything I've seen on youtube shows penetration at point blank range, and ammo breaking apart pretty much right after making a hole in the windshield. I would NOT bet on it holding together well - more so if you're using frangible ammo. Moreover, I've certainly read about windshields being able to deflect rounds as well (which makes sense, really.) I'm sure if I dug deep enough, I'd find an FBI document on this (there's one for 10mm, but I don't care as much about such a hot round) - the FBI protocol requires various tests shooting through a windshield.

 

[Zargon]

A JHP .45 will certainly penetrate a windshield. I'd guess that you've never shot a windshield with anything if you think otherwise. Even so, plenty of youtube videos out there to show you the truth.

non-bonded JHPs are liable to break apart going through a windshield

 

[irishScott]

Everything I've seen on youtube shows penetration at point blank range, and ammo breaking apart pretty much right after making a hole in the windshield. I would NOT bet on it holding together well - more so if you're using frangible ammo. Moreover, I've certainly read about windshields being able to deflect rounds as well (which makes sense, really.) I'm sure if I dug deep enough, I'd find an FBI document on this (there's one for 10mm, but I don't care as much about such a hot round) - the FBI protocol requires various tests shooting through a windshield.

As I recall, a lot of the more LEO-targeted JHPs are specifically rated to go through a Windshield. I'm talking Hornady Critical Duty, Speer Gold Dots, Federal Hydrashoks, etc.

 

[rudeguy]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eJgFt6JWxyc

 

[WackyDan]

The perception is that it can go deeper. So go through extra layers of clothing or more body mass than a JHP. My problem with that is the whole point of the .45 round is that it dumps its energy very fast, which is what gives it superior stopping power.

20 years ago that might have been true. The FBI not long ago released a study they did with 9mm, .40 and .45... Found that the old adage about .45 being superior isn't true anymore due to the advancement in ammunition and ballistics... They found the 9mm to be equally deadly to the others while offering higher capacity.

Sure, I still buy that the .45 imparts more energy at impact still... And a Springfield XDS in .45 is now my daily carry, but I'm tempted to buy another in 9mm for the extra capacity.

 

[Jerem]

This video was pretty well done. The only thing I don't like is it relies on ballistic jell. The author talks of doing tests with 'human analogs' but that doesn't tell me much. I don't know if it accounts for ribcages and such.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eARONnDXhug

 

[MongGrel]

Old, might not do it.

Got me, I'd always thought they would probably go through a windshield, but guess i've never tried it.