religious schools are private organizations. i've never seen a public religious school, have you? just give it time though, it'll happen
religious schools are private organizations. i've never seen a public religious school, have you? just give it time though, it'll happen
Amused
Elite Member
- Apr 14, 2001
- 57,387
- 19,675
- 146
Funding is not access. It is funding. Allowing YOU to walk in the park is not funding, it is access. Allowing you to camp on public campgrounds is not funding, it is access.
NO private orgs should be publicly funded. However, ALL people, regardless of beliefs, should be allowed EQUAL ACCESS to public facilities and parks.
What you are proposing is a type of religious Jim Crow law. It stinks and I suspect you know that now, otherwise your arguments wouldn't be so lame.
Long before the Scouts beat the gay issue in court, they won another lawsuit that let them continue thier practice of allowing boys only, several girls sued to get in, saying the girl scouts did not offer nearly as much (though the girl scouts receive WAY more funding) where was the ACLU then? Why attack the boyscouts now?
I think everyone in this thread has pretty much run out of arguments defending the ACLU in this case, and is now grasping at straws. The simple fact that there are boy scout troops that exist on a military base does not infringe on any americans civil liberties, nor does it prove any type of preferential treatment by the government. The people who live on a base have as much right to have a scout troop for thier kids as residents of any town in america. Why would you want to take away the constitutional right to assemble from the same people who protect that right for you?
I think everyone in this thread has pretty much run out of arguments defending the ACLU in this case, and is now grasping at straws. The simple fact that there are boy scout troops that exist on a military base does not infringe on any americans civil liberties, nor does it prove any type of preferential treatment by the government. The people who live on a base have as much right to have a scout troop for thier kids as residents of any town in america. Why would you want to take away the constitutional right to assemble from the same people who protect that right for you?
0roo0roo
No Lifer
- Sep 21, 2002
- 64,795
- 84
- 91
you're comparing basically unlimited resource(sidewalks) to limited lease agreements which no true equal access is possible. we dont really allow people to reserve sidewalks for their groups use. leasing out sidewalks lol. but if we did, the group would have to follow government laws. free speech does not mean the freedom to use public funds to fund illegal discrimination.
the inescapable logical end to your throw it to the wind libertarianism is government funded churches. i mean why the hell not. government subsidized anything. you argue with the vaguest notions of freedom that youj should be able to do whatever you want. if i want to take over a few classrooms at a "public school" to teach my arryian brothers the truth about the coming race war, who are you to stop me? i'll volunteer, i'll not be an "employee" so you can't even pull that sh*t on me. but you'll subsidize me and my illegal descriminatory activities because thats the end result of your logic.
i guess you don't understand the flipside of freedom is responsibility. the government is responsible for the activities it chooses to subsidize. it cannot subsidize illegal descrimination.
Amused
Elite Member
- Apr 14, 2001
- 57,387
- 19,675
- 146
Using public facilities is NOT FUNDING. It is equal access. So long as they pay their fees and members pay their taxes just like everyone else (and they do) they deserve EQUAL ACCESS.
Again, what you are proposing is a religious Jim Crow law.
This shows you have no freakin' idea what you're talking about. Libertarianism is about LESS government funding of EVERYTHING.
Again, you obviously have no idea what libertarianism is about. A hint: It is not anarchy.
Actually, Libertarianism ideally opposes public education. Again, your ignorance ruins your argument.
But that aside, children in a public school are a captive audience. As such, what they are exposed to is up to the discretion of tax payers and parents and subject to anti-discrimination laws and separation laws.
While they may not teach these things to children, at the same time, children with these beliefs have EQUAL ACCESS to the classes they offer.
See how logic works? Try it some time. Your arguments are getting more lame with each passing post.
Allowing equal access to public parks and facilities is NOT SUBSIDIZING. Nor is it an implication of endorsement or an establishment of religion so long as ALL PEOPLE are granted equal access.
Let's face it. You want legalized religious bigotry. A religious Jim Crow law is what you seek. Your hypocrisy is astounding.
0roo0roo
No Lifer
- Sep 21, 2002
- 64,795
- 84
- 91
lol so being intolerant of intolerance is jim crow now. gotchya
thats the arguement bigots always use to defend themselves.
as in other threads you take libertarianism ot the extreme. gadfly taking the limits of freedom to absurdity. of course you don't support the public schools, but by your own logic the next best thing would be to allow the kkk to take over a few public school classrooms. you duck it of course because you have to. thats the logical conclusion of your arguements. freedom without law.
and when organized groups lease land or property from the government, equal access no longer really applies. it is a scarce valuable public resource that is dolled out on merit and for the public good. it is a subsidy no way around it. all you can do is play games trying to get around that fact. you have equal access to public parks and sidewalks as citizens, not as organizations.
thats the arguement bigots always use to defend themselves.as in other threads you take libertarianism ot the extreme. gadfly taking the limits of freedom to absurdity. of course you don't support the public schools, but by your own logic the next best thing would be to allow the kkk to take over a few public school classrooms. you duck it of course because you have to. thats the logical conclusion of your arguements. freedom without law.
and when organized groups lease land or property from the government, equal access no longer really applies. it is a scarce valuable public resource that is dolled out on merit and for the public good. it is a subsidy no way around it. all you can do is play games trying to get around that fact. you have equal access to public parks and sidewalks as citizens, not as organizations.
where did you pull that line of BS from, its obviously an opinion of yours, so nobody cares
scarce? dolled out on "merit"? where the f are you coming up with this stuff?
no, its not, and half a dozen posts to the contrary have gone unanswered by you, just because you keep repeating it, doesnt make it true.
the one who ignores the facts posted is the ones playing games, oh wait, thats you
lol, you are the dumbest peson ive met in a while, private organizations get reserved access to public places such as streets an sidewalks ALL THE TIME, guess what, they can even deny entry to other citizens while they have such access. They can even put up fences and barriers, to keep people out.
All you have to do is link to one such law or peice of evidence that will support your outrageous claims, and you might have an argument, but you cant, so stop posting now.
Amused
Elite Member
- Apr 14, 2001
- 57,387
- 19,675
- 146
Originally posted by: 0roo0roo
lol so being intolerant of intolerance is jim crow now. gotchya
You continue to display an astounding amount of ignorance.
You assume I am a "bigot" because I defend the rights of a private org.
Congrats. You have joined the ranks of simple minded idiots who have assumed:
I do drugs because I oppose the war on drugs.
I am gay because I support equality for gays.
I am a smoker because I oppose these absurd lawsuits and anti-smoking laws that violate private property rights.
What else???
Oh yeah, that I am an anarchist because they are too ignorant to understand the clear and obvious differences between anarchy and libertarianism.
Actually, I am a very moderate libertarian. The only absurdity here is your hypocrisy. I'm actually MORE liberal than you in this area. It is you who are being the thought police and social fascist.
Oh, and I DID address the school employment issue. It's not my fault you skipped over it. Oh, and by your logic kids who hold religious beliefs should be banned from public schools.
Bullsh!t.
More Bullsh!t. Their tax dollars PAID for those things as much as yours and mine did. They are as entitled to use it as much as you and I are. Who are you to decide what people are "worthy" to have EQUAL ACCESS to the property they paid for? How about we go back to the 50s and start the communist witch hunts again and ban all economic socialists?
Oh, wait... Then your bull would be gored. You wouldn't like that would you? It kinda sucks when someone else who opposes your views becomes the thought police and robs you of your freedoms and rights, doesn't it?
I for one want nothing to do with your version of fascism based on PC thought police and religious Jim Crow laws.
0roo0roo
No Lifer
- Sep 21, 2002
- 64,795
- 84
- 91
you should talk. perhaps you're not a bigot, but you are a moron for claiming that public subsidy of religious organizations is justified under any form. thats all it comes down to. and no you don't address things, you dodge things you find lead to inconvenient conclusions when based on your own logic.
good god man. its a subsidy by any definition. just look at what they pay. do you think the kkk gets afforded such equal access? is it even possible for all groups to have "equal" access to limited resources as such? if you think so you are just deluded.
the Boy Scouts operate their headquarters in city-owned Balboa Park for $1 per year and receive rent-free use of facilities on city-owned property on Fiesta Island.
http://www.aclusandiego.org/bo...ts/boyscoutsbalboa.htm
and they couldn't have said it clearer. "The Boy Scouts can't have it both ways," says ACLU Executive Director Linda Hills. "If they truly are a private religious organization, free to engage in any form of discrimination they choose, then they are not entitled to a government subsidy. Tax dollars should not be spent to promote intolerance."
"The City cannot lease away people's rights, including the rights of gays, and atheists to be free from discrimination and to enjoy the use of unique public assets like Balboa Park and Fiesta Island," says M.E. Stephens, Co-President of the Ton Homann Law Association, San Diego's gay, lesbian, and bisexual bar association. "It is time for City leaders to earn their merit badge in tolerance (diversity?) by ending their sponsorship of the Boy Scouts."
they are free as everyone else to bid for such subsidies once they follow the law.
its sad when someone like you thinks following anti descrimination laws is akin to a "witch hunt". that denying subsidy to religious organizations to preserve the separation of church and state is akin to a "witch hunt". they can have their subsidy and become an essentially public organization if they follow the law. its that simple. they cannot have their cake and eat it too.
under your pathetic logic we'd be funding islamic mullahs and their schools of brainwashing and terrorism. thats your absurd idea of freedom. i mean why not? they pay taxes
lease a park to em and have em train some jihadi's... you see ..by your logic you can't have laws against descrimination, because that would require discrimination against discriminators the absurdity of your logic. oh those horrid laws against discrimination... oh thats facism thats pc thought policing good god man.yes, and they have to get permits. they have to follow the law.
wait your saying there are no laws against discrimination not involving private groups on private property? what planet do you live on? you have the gall to call me stupid? you idiots have the gall to call me facisct and defender of jim crow when you defend public funding of outright discrimination? pathetic.
your still reaching at best, and still no solid evidence, you keep stating what you THINK it is, but were not buying it, we arent like the rest of those brainwashed by the ACLU.
1) For the MILLIONTH TIME, the Boys Scouts DO NOT receive any public funding. Got a sweet deal on use of a facility? maybe, but so did a thousand other orgs, including gay groups.
2)The "discrimination" the boy scouts use, is NOT ILEGAL, it was upheld in the supreme court.
1) For the MILLIONTH TIME, the Boys Scouts DO NOT receive any public funding. Got a sweet deal on use of a facility? maybe, but so did a thousand other orgs, including gay groups.
2)The "discrimination" the boy scouts use, is NOT ILEGAL, it was upheld in the supreme court.
Phoenix86
Lifer
- May 21, 2003
- 14,644
- 10
- 81
I'm going to make this simple... 0roo0roo is trolling, here's how.
1. He will not provide substance until deep into the conversation. He baits, then tries to attach.
2. He ignores questions asked of him.
3. He repeats his POV over and over, still ignoring the questions.
4. He butchers people's POVs so he can make a point.
ex:
5. He makes personal accusations.
I can show all of these things in another thread he's participating in here.
The sad thing is, I think he has some good points, when they are fleshed out like the Balboa park thing. However, I don't really care to discuss considering the above...
I'll just say this, when equal access becomes a subsidy or direct support it has crossed the line. Sometimes that may have done, but a lot of the things the ACLU is going after hasn't croseed that line.
1. He will not provide substance until deep into the conversation. He baits, then tries to attach.
2. He ignores questions asked of him.
3. He repeats his POV over and over, still ignoring the questions.
4. He butchers people's POVs so he can make a point.
ex:
To Amused, however Amused said:
and has made it a point, numerous times in this thread, that he doesn't feel using a public resource is a subsidy.
5. He makes personal accusations.
I can show all of these things in another thread he's participating in here.
The sad thing is, I think he has some good points, when they are fleshed out like the Balboa park thing. However, I don't really care to discuss considering the above...
I'll just say this, when equal access becomes a subsidy or direct support it has crossed the line. Sometimes that may have done, but a lot of the things the ACLU is going after hasn't croseed that line.
Yeah, he's definitely one of those L33T FLAMZ0R Tr011s. Looks like he's already been fed quite a bit though :disgust:
wtf, you joined less than a week ago, and you dug up this thread from page 10 of off topic.. hmmm
It's interesting that the ACLU has had a 20 year vendetta against the Boy Scouts, but they support pedophiles.
ACLU defends child-molester group
Asks judge to throw out lawsuit against NAMBLA for 10-year-old's murder
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
By Julie Foster
© 2000 WorldNetDaily.com
The American Civil Liberties Union has asked a judge to dismiss what it calls an "unconstitutional" lawsuit against a national pedophile organization being sued in a wrongful death case after two of the group's members brutally raped and murdered a 10-year-old boy.
The $200 million civil lawsuit, which charges the North American Man-Boy Love Association with wrongful death, was originally filed in Massachusetts Federal District Court on May 16.
As reported in WorldNetDaily, Salvatore Sicari and Charles Jaynes picked up fifth-grader Jeffrey Curley and took the boy to the Boston Public Library where Jaynes accessed NAMBLA's website. Later, the men attempted to sexually assault Curley, but the boy fought back. Attempting to restrain him, Jaynes gagged the 10-year-old with a gasoline-soaked rag, eventually killing him. The men put Jeffrey's body in a tub with concrete and threw it in a river.
According to Curley family attorney Larry Frisoli, Jaynes kept a diary in which he wrote that he turned to NAMBLA's website in order to gain psychological comfort for what he was about to do. The killer had been stalking Curley prior to the boy's murder and possessed various materials from the clandestine group.
The ACLU argues that the newsletters and other NAMBLA materials in Jaynes' possession, which contain ''photographs of boys of various ages and nude drawings of boys,'' are protected speech under the Constitution. The material does not ''urge, promote, advocate or even condone torture, mutilation or murder,'' ACLU attorneys wrote. ''Examination of the materials that have been identified by the plaintiffs will show that they simply do not advocate violation of the law,'' the dismissal motion states. ''But even if that were the case, speech is not deprived of the protection of the First Amendment simply because it advocates an unlawful act."
Both killers are now serving life sentences. The family filed the lawsuit against NAMBLA and the Internet service provider that hosted its site, arguing their son might still be alive were it not for the group and its website.
But the ACLU believes NAMBLA is being unconstitutionally ''sued for their ideas.'' According to court documents from the ACLU, the case raises ''profoundly important questions under the First Amendment,'' because NAMBLA is not being sued for making any particular statements, but simply for creating an ''environment'' that encourages sexual abuse.
''What they don't like is what NAMBLA stands for,'' said John Reinstein, legal director of the Massachusetts chapter of the ACLU. ''They don't like their ideas or the notion that someone else would have accepted them,'' he told the Boston Globe.
The Curleys won a $328 million wrongful death case against their son's killers earlier this year, but since both men are penniless, Frisoli called it largely a moral victory. WND reported in July that Frisoli was preparing a class-action lawsuit against NAMBLA. If NAMBLA loses the class-action suit, individuals and parents of children who were involved in sexual relationships with members will be able to collect damages.
According to Frisoli, NAMBLA has anywhere from 300 to 1,300 members, depending on which time period is selected for the lawsuit, translating to thousands of children that would constitute the class in the suit.
More
The case alleges that Jaynes joined the North American Man/Boy Love Associate in the fall of 1996, read the group's publication and website and "became obsessed with having sex with and raping young male children.
According to Frisoli, the organization educates its members on how to locate children that might be susceptible to sexual advances, how to gain the children's trust, how to deceive their parents and how to escape punishment if caught.
"They have a manual entitled The Survival Manual: The Man's Guide to Staying Safe in Man-Boy Sexual Relationships. I call it the 'Rape and Escape Manual," says Frisoli. "It includes chapters on the right and wrong places to have sex, the Federal Bureau of Investigation and the legal rights of defendants. In case someone wants to flee the country, it explains how to avoid law enforcement in foreign countries and how to rip off credit card companies for cash abroad. NAMBLA denies the manual exists, but I have it sitting on my desk."
ACLU defends child-molester group
Asks judge to throw out lawsuit against NAMBLA for 10-year-old's murder
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
By Julie Foster
© 2000 WorldNetDaily.com
The American Civil Liberties Union has asked a judge to dismiss what it calls an "unconstitutional" lawsuit against a national pedophile organization being sued in a wrongful death case after two of the group's members brutally raped and murdered a 10-year-old boy.
The $200 million civil lawsuit, which charges the North American Man-Boy Love Association with wrongful death, was originally filed in Massachusetts Federal District Court on May 16.
As reported in WorldNetDaily, Salvatore Sicari and Charles Jaynes picked up fifth-grader Jeffrey Curley and took the boy to the Boston Public Library where Jaynes accessed NAMBLA's website. Later, the men attempted to sexually assault Curley, but the boy fought back. Attempting to restrain him, Jaynes gagged the 10-year-old with a gasoline-soaked rag, eventually killing him. The men put Jeffrey's body in a tub with concrete and threw it in a river.
According to Curley family attorney Larry Frisoli, Jaynes kept a diary in which he wrote that he turned to NAMBLA's website in order to gain psychological comfort for what he was about to do. The killer had been stalking Curley prior to the boy's murder and possessed various materials from the clandestine group.
The ACLU argues that the newsletters and other NAMBLA materials in Jaynes' possession, which contain ''photographs of boys of various ages and nude drawings of boys,'' are protected speech under the Constitution. The material does not ''urge, promote, advocate or even condone torture, mutilation or murder,'' ACLU attorneys wrote. ''Examination of the materials that have been identified by the plaintiffs will show that they simply do not advocate violation of the law,'' the dismissal motion states. ''But even if that were the case, speech is not deprived of the protection of the First Amendment simply because it advocates an unlawful act."
Both killers are now serving life sentences. The family filed the lawsuit against NAMBLA and the Internet service provider that hosted its site, arguing their son might still be alive were it not for the group and its website.
But the ACLU believes NAMBLA is being unconstitutionally ''sued for their ideas.'' According to court documents from the ACLU, the case raises ''profoundly important questions under the First Amendment,'' because NAMBLA is not being sued for making any particular statements, but simply for creating an ''environment'' that encourages sexual abuse.
''What they don't like is what NAMBLA stands for,'' said John Reinstein, legal director of the Massachusetts chapter of the ACLU. ''They don't like their ideas or the notion that someone else would have accepted them,'' he told the Boston Globe.
The Curleys won a $328 million wrongful death case against their son's killers earlier this year, but since both men are penniless, Frisoli called it largely a moral victory. WND reported in July that Frisoli was preparing a class-action lawsuit against NAMBLA. If NAMBLA loses the class-action suit, individuals and parents of children who were involved in sexual relationships with members will be able to collect damages.
According to Frisoli, NAMBLA has anywhere from 300 to 1,300 members, depending on which time period is selected for the lawsuit, translating to thousands of children that would constitute the class in the suit.
More
The case alleges that Jaynes joined the North American Man/Boy Love Associate in the fall of 1996, read the group's publication and website and "became obsessed with having sex with and raping young male children.
According to Frisoli, the organization educates its members on how to locate children that might be susceptible to sexual advances, how to gain the children's trust, how to deceive their parents and how to escape punishment if caught.
"They have a manual entitled The Survival Manual: The Man's Guide to Staying Safe in Man-Boy Sexual Relationships. I call it the 'Rape and Escape Manual," says Frisoli. "It includes chapters on the right and wrong places to have sex, the Federal Bureau of Investigation and the legal rights of defendants. In case someone wants to flee the country, it explains how to avoid law enforcement in foreign countries and how to rip off credit card companies for cash abroad. NAMBLA denies the manual exists, but I have it sitting on my desk."
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