Bankruptcy Bill to Pass!

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BBond

Diamond Member
Oct 3, 2004
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Originally posted by: Buz2b
Originally posted by: BBond
I found this article by Cynthia Tucker, the editorial page editor for The Atlanta Journal-Constitution (re-printed in the Baltimore Sun), on the bankruptcy law just passed and it brings up a core question that I've had.

Why would American voters elect people whose economic policies work against average Americans?

I still can't explain it but read this op-ed piece and you'll see the point as well as a possible motive. This is a bankruptcy law that benefits banks and credit card companies, forgives the rich and rich corporations, but penalizes average, elderly and disabled Americans.

Bush deals another blow to the middle

By Cynthia Tucker

Originally published March 14, 2005

ATLANTA - President Bush didn't campaign on a promise to make it harder for average Americans to regain their financial footing after filing for bankruptcy. Even if he had, he probably would have been re-elected anyway.

Most Americans haven't noticed the president's relentless assault on programs and policies that protect the middle class against the caprice of the marketplace. If average Americans are living with a higher degree of financial anxiety, they blame outsourcing or high taxes or illegal Mexican immigrants. They haven't recognized that the Republicans have middle America in their crosshairs and that President Bush has given the order to fire.

The war on working- and middle-class America continued apace last week when a piece of legislation favored by bankers and credit card companies - and pushed by the president - gained steam in the Senate. The new bankruptcy bill would make it harder for middle-income individuals to file under Chapter 7, which usually allows some debt-forgiveness. Under the new law, individuals (with very few exceptions) have to keep working to pay off their debts, even if it takes several years.

Financial industry lobbyists claim they are only going after deadbeats who can afford to pay, but the research suggests otherwise. A few deadbeats may indeed file for bankruptcy to get out of paying for cars or big-screen TVs they knew they couldn't afford. But the vast majority, experts say, have been forced into substantial debt by some unforeseen personal catastrophe - death of the major breadwinner, job loss or medical crisis, for example.

Meanwhile, the rich will not be held to the same standard. They are free to be deadbeats. Senators defeated an amendment to the bill that would have closed loopholes allowing the wealthy to hold onto their mansions and other assets when they file for bankruptcy. They also turned back an amendment that would prevent corrupt companies, such as Enron, from sheltering assets that ought to go to former employees. But the Senate wouldn't accept an amendment that would have allowed the not-rich elderly to keep their houses if they go bankrupt.

Years from now, sociologists and political scientists will explain how Republicans persuaded so many voters to act against their own economic interests. Even as the GOP heaps more and more benefits on the wealthy and big business - tax breaks, so-called tort reform, anti-union policies - and strips them from average workers, the party continues to get much of its support from those same workers.

It's a mystery.


Perhaps it can be partly explained by the virtue of self-reliance, an ethic embedded in the American psyche that is often associated with conservatives. But a sense of invulnerability has also made it easier for the GOP to carry out this assault on average Americans: Most people don't think they'll be the victims of a financial crisis until the crisis befalls them.

The rewrite of the bankruptcy laws comes after a series of other developments that have frayed the safety net for average families. Even as job security declines, unemployment compensation has been reduced. Guaranteed pensions are disappearing, as is employer-provided health insurance. While wealthy Americans are coddled, working Americans are being subjected to the whims of a rapacious capitalism.

But Mr. Bush didn't say that during the last campaign. Instead, he talked about an "ownership society."

He neglected to explain that most of the owning would be done by the very rich.

Cynthia Tucker is editorial page editor for The Atlanta Journal-Constitution. Her column appears Mondays in The Sun.

This "journalist" is talking out of he "lower" mouth. There is no "protection" for the wealthy to keep their mansions or other assets in this bill. Quite the contrary, the bill provides that those in a better position to pay (wealthier) will be made to pay and not file bankruptcy (or at least chapter 13). The bulk of the bill is based on need: Those that really need bankruptcy, will have it available. People like Trump will find the door closed.
Typical scare tactics so predictably used by the left anytime something demanding personal responsibility is passed. Look at the hell they raised when the republicans managed to get welfare reform passed under Clinton. You'd have thought we were going to starve every child in the nation. Instead we saw a reduction in the welfare roles as (at least some) of those able to, went to work. Nope, it wasn't perfect or good enough but it was needed and it was a start. The same thing is going on here. It ain't perfect and I don't think it goes far enough but the Bankruptcy reform bill is a start in the right direction. This will bear out over time, I'm sure.

You're wrong.

In fact, for a bill purported to fight abuse, it leaves intact a huge loophole through which wealthy filers can protect millions - even billions - of dollars while being absolved of their debts. The loophole takes the form of a certain trust exempted from the requirement to liquidate. Also, the bill only narrows another loophole that permits the wealthy to protect their assets by putting them into mansions in five states that that have no limits on exemptions for homes.

Sen. Herb Kohl (D-Wis.) sought to eradicate that loophole. He settled on a compromise that limited its use. Notably, among the long series of Democratic amendments rejected by the Senate were two that would have entirely closed both loopholes for the rich.

Editorial: Put brakes on bankruptcy bill

 

Buz2b

Diamond Member
Jun 2, 2001
4,619
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From your own quoted editorial:
The industry recklessly foists plastic on consumers, even those who are high credit risks - a strategy that appears to be paying off in handsome profits.
One point missed in this is that the consumers in question aren't being blamed or taking responsibility for not only accepting the cards but using them and running up debt they know they can't pay off. That's where the BS comes in. It's called personal responsibility. No manner of companies doing this or congress passing that can gloss over it; no matter how you try and do so. It's a prime example of that very old and tired saying, "Well if XXXX told you to jump off a bridge, would you do it??" No one forces the consumer to take the card and run up the debt. If it now becomes more difficult for them if they do so or if they now have to face the consequences of their actions, so be it.
BTW, the "trust" that is mentioned as a loophole, is not a rich person's exemption from the law. It is something that anyone can set up; rich or poor. Also, its use is limited and effect is narrow. The "mansions in five different states" clause is again, not as it reads. Part of the problem is that "little" thing called state's rights from the Feds.
Bottom line, to point to an editorial as "proof" of a point is nuts. That is nothing but an opinion based critique. You could point to dozens on both sides of the argument and none would pass the test of "proof".

YOU are wrong! ;) Besides, this is now old news. Later!
 

MadRat

Lifer
Oct 14, 1999
11,999
307
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I think we need a balance.

No reform of the current law should be passed without first capping the ANNUAL lending rate to 20% or less. These 40-60% home equity rates in the guise of "0 interest for 2 years" are incredibly misleading. And the paycheck-advance places are even reaching the point of 100% annual interest rates. I'm sorry, but these people are as lowly as the terrorists IMO to try to make money this way.

And on the other hand, if you are given a loan that is impossible to collect on then the bank should have to free the interest rate to a reduced or zero level until payments can be made. The alternative is that the bank would have to forfeit some of the principle due to "mutual casuation" for making the bad loan in the first place. I really do not like this idea, freezing the rate is more acceptable.

And in hardluck medical/death exceptions, well, those should be treated on a case by case basis. To a certain extent the person could lose it all if they are already going to lose it all. No way the medical community should be able to take it first!
 

Buz2b

Diamond Member
Jun 2, 2001
4,619
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Originally posted by: MadRat
I think we need a balance.

No reform of the current law should be passed without first capping the ANNUAL lending rate to 20% or less. These 40-60% home equity rates in the guise of "0 interest for 2 years" are incredibly misleading. And the paycheck-advance places are even reaching the point of 100% annual interest rates. I'm sorry, but these people are as lowly as the terrorists IMO to try to make money this way.

And on the other hand, if you are given a loan that is impossible to collect on then the bank should have to free the interest rate to a reduced or zero level until payments can be made. The alternative is that the bank would have to forfeit some of the principle due to "mutual casuation" for making the bad loan in the first place. I really do not like this idea, freezing the rate is more acceptable.

And in hardluck medical/death exceptions, well, those should be treated on a case by case basis. To a certain extent the person could lose it all if they are already going to lose it all. No way the medical community should be able to take it first!

Your points are well taken and on a limited basis, I might agree with parts of them. First, the last thing we want to happen is for the government to, in effect, regulate lending rates. Hell, they make a mess of their own budget, let's not get them involved in more. Besides, that would be taking the right of the free marketplace away from banking when the real problem is the idiots that sign bad contracts without understanding them.

I can see the point about making loans or issuing credit lines that are impossible to collect. If it can be shown that an institution makes a loan knowing that their chances of collection are very diminished, then I agree that they should pay the penalty of the loss of AT LEAST part of the interest rate; if not all. I'm still a bit uneasy with that though because, it takes two to tango. The consumer doesn't have to accept the loan. However, if the institutions don't make the offer, there'd be nothing for the consumer to turn down.

I'm unclear on the gist of your last point though. As to whether the medical community can "take it all", I think if they follow the letter of the law and are first in line, they can take whatever they are entitled to; as long as the protection is in place for child support, etc.
 

Zebo

Elite Member
Jul 29, 2001
39,398
19
81
If people weren't ignorant, they would pay off their balances every month and CC companies wouldn't make a red cent

CC companies make 2-4% the second you make a purchase from fees they charge to merchant. You just don't see it as it's ammoritzed over all thier products and included in "sales price" I remeber in the past some merchants offered two prices one for cash one for CC's but that idea has pretty much faded away since almost everyone uses CC's even those like me who pay off every month. I use it for everything. I loose wallets so I just keep my CC in glove box. Use it a grocery store, gas, home depot... whatever I hardy ever have cash.
 

Zebo

Elite Member
Jul 29, 2001
39,398
19
81
Originally posted by: daveshel
The only regret here is that the credit industry has the lobby power to get this law on the table. When I was 20 in the late 70s, I couldn't get a credit card, nobody could without being well established. Now they go after college freshmen and it seems like all anybody needs to get a credit card is a signature. Irresponsibility begets irresponsibility. (But I'm glad I couldn't get one as a kid - I learned to respect credit and have never left a balance unpaid at the end of the month.)

Good call. It's lenders giving away credit so easily is the problem. Now they want congress to free them up from thier mis-management and hold poor people "over the barrel" for life with bad credit.
 

Zebo

Elite Member
Jul 29, 2001
39,398
19
81
Originally posted by: piasabird
What about corporations?

How many times have you seen airlines restructuring their debt. It is almost a given that the more money you have the easier it is to get a bank to restructure your debt, because it is cheaper than calling in the loan.

Title XIV: Preventing Corporate Bankruptcy Abuse - (Sec. 1401) Extends the look-back period for such priority wages and benefits from 90 days to 180 days prior to bankruptcy (or cessation of debtor's business). Raises the ceiling for employee wages and benefits entitled to third order priority from $4,000 to $10,000.

(Sec. 1402) Extends from one year to two years the look-back period during which the bankruptcy trustee may avoid fraudulent transfers and obligations incurred by either a debtor or partnership debtor (including any transfer to or for the benefit of an insider, or obligation incurred to or for the benefit of an insider, under an employment contract and not in the ordinary course of business).

(Sec. 1403) Instructs the court, upon motion of a party in interest, to order reinstatement of retiree benefits if the debtor modified them during the 180-day period prior to petition filing, and was insolvent on the date of modification (unless the court finds that the balance of the equities clearly favors such modification).

(Sec. 1404) Declares nondischargeable in bankruptcy the debt of an individual that results before, on, or after the date on which the petition in bankruptcy was filed. Identifies the effective date of such stricture as July 30, 2002,( the date of enactment of the Sarbanes-Oxley Act).

(Sec. 1405) Requires the bankruptcy trustee to move for the appointment of a trustee if there are reasonable grounds to suspect that current members of the governing body of the debtor, the debtor's chief executive or chief financial officer, or members of the governing body who selected the debtor's chief executive or chief financial officer, participated in actual fraud, dishonesty, or criminal conduct in the management of the debtor or the debtor's public financial reporting
http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/bdquery/z?d109:SN00256:mad:@@L&summ2=m&
 

Mayfriday0529

Diamond Member
Sep 15, 2003
7,187
0
71
How long will it take... to take effect, i heard 180 days?

My mom filed for bankruptcy a few weeks ago and has her day in court May 12th.
 

ciba

Senior member
Apr 27, 2004
812
0
71
Originally posted by: MadRat
I think we need a balance.

No reform of the current law should be passed without first capping the ANNUAL lending rate to 20% or less. These 40-60% home equity rates in the guise of "0 interest for 2 years" are incredibly misleading. And the paycheck-advance places are even reaching the point of 100% annual interest rates. I'm sorry, but these people are as lowly as the terrorists IMO to try to make money this way.

Why should people be protected by law from their own stupidity? Take a look at the back of every single credit card offer you get. The fees, rates and penalties are all disclosed.

As for 40-60% home equity rates... where did you see these? I have NEVER seen a HELOC do more than just break double-digits in recent years.
 

Infohawk

Lifer
Jan 12, 2002
17,844
1
0
Worst part of this is that they didn't tie up a loophole that allows rich people to make protective trusts for themselves! Basically, only the rich can now protect themselves from creditors.
 

Kipper

Diamond Member
Feb 18, 2000
7,366
0
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When the economically powerful speak, the politically powerful follow. When the economically weak speak, the political powerful are silent, not out of reverence but out of sheer disregard.

Edit: The corporate welfare in this country is ridiculous. If there is any greater threat to American democracy it is the influence multibillion-dollar corporations wield within our borders.
 

randym431

Golden Member
Jun 4, 2003
1,270
1
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I doubt many people feel "sorry" for someone maxing out cards, just to do a big Christmas or vacation or buy the kids those $200 sports shoes. Thats not the point. The sad point is most people "think" thats what causes folks to bankruptcy. But thats just not so. Yes, some do max out cards and file, only to get more cards and again file. But most of those are above average income earners. Most people making $30,000 or less can?t get credit for years after filing. Those high income earners can easily get more credit after filing. It just works that way. What the "sting" of this bill be, is with those people that have never filed and "think" those that do simply ran amuck spending with their cards. What these people don?t know is "they" may be on the down side of this bill. After one of the kids gets sick with a serious illness, or the spouse, or a drunk driver puts someone in a wheel chair for life, no longer earning income. Do you know most realistic cancer treatments are only available in a few states. So if a family member has cancer in Iowa, you'll most likely need to travel to some other state as your only option for life saving treatments. And stay there for months, returning often during the year. Sooo, will "your" hmo pay for out-of-state medical expenses? Even if they "might", surely not at 100%. More like 60% or 70%. DO you know how fast medical bills mount under those conditions, and for something like cancer treatments? And now, with this bill, you'll most likely see the loss of you home if you must go bankruptcy. And much worse.
Hey, why do you have car insurance? Just incase someone smashes your ford all over the road, you have insurance to replace the loss. Thats kind of what bankruptcy is. If you have a financial disaster, you can still file and put your life together. No one plans for a car wreck, but we still buy insurance. No one, or few, plan on financial disaster, but bankruptcy can save them if they do. I figure in 3 to 5 years, when regular "common" folk have a family disaster and find themselves needing bankruptcy, THEN they'll realize what Bush and the Republicans have done to this country, in the name of the banks wishes. Till then, these people will be on the side of the lawmakers, that is, till disaster happens to THEM. Support of bankruptcy is in the Bible, just another ?pick and chose? theme those Republicans find and choose not to follow. To bad bankruptcy is not listed in the Ten Commandments, ?Thou shall forgive unpaid debt after seven years?. Then, they would not care about pushing the Ten Commandments (in this case).