Bank / Legal question

[kevinthenerd]

Ok, here's the chronology....


Tue 05/23... Customer enters checking account information online to pay a car insurance bill and supposedly makes a mistake typing it in

Tue 05/23... Car insurance company website says "Internet payment applied"

Tue 05/23 (evening)... Car insurance company website says "Payment not honored by bank - unable to locate account"

Tue 05/23 (later that evening)... Customer spends the money and decides to pay the bill on Friday after getting paid

Wed 05/24 (morning)... Customer's bank account online shows an ACH pending transaction


Is the car insurance company liable for the overdraft charges because they said that the payment wasn't honored? Is the bank liable? How much does a lawyer cost in a case like this?

 

[TwinkleToes77]

Id think the customer would be liable for the overdraft charges since they are the one that made the initial mistake.. however most banks will waive the charge if you approach them and its a first and only time incident.

 

[Schfifty Five]

You screwed dude.

 

[bsobel]

hehehehehehe you want to hire a lawyer to deal with $20 to $100 in ach charges? That will be the dumbest couple hundred dollars you ever spend 😉

 

[kevinthenerd]

Originally posted by: TwinkleToes77
Id think the customer would be liable for the overdraft charges since they are the one that made the initial mistake.. however most banks will waive the charge if you approach them and its a first and only time incident.

The customer made no mistake regarding overdrafts. The customer simply took advantage of the fact that the payment never went through. Once the payment posted as refused, it should not have gone through. According to the insurance company, they used the payment information from a previous payment to repost the transaction, an action they took without consulting the customer. They never posted the new transaction to the insurnace account, so now the customer is left without the money in their bank account AND they still owe the money to the insurance company.

Either the bank or the insurnace company made a serious error, and they should be held accountable.

 

[Baked]

Originally posted by: kevinthenerd
Tue 05/23... Customer enters checking account information online to pay a car insurance bill and supposedly makes a mistake typing it in

Learn to type next time. Customer's fault. /thread

 

[kevinthenerd]

Originally posted by: bsobel
hehehehehehe you want to hire a lawyer to deal with $20 to $100 in ach charges? That will be the dumbest couple hundred dollars you ever spend 😉

It's $34 for each of several transactions, and if a lawyer is involved, there's a possibility of recovering court fees in the process.

 

[KLin]

We need a poll so I can vote that it's the customer's mistake and that he is responsible for any and all overdraft fees. kthxbye.

 

[kevinthenerd]

Originally posted by: Baked

Originally posted by: kevinthenerd
Tue 05/23... Customer enters checking account information online to pay a car insurance bill and supposedly makes a mistake typing it in

Learn to type next time. Customer's fault. /thread

The bank account number is either correct or incorrect. There's nothing in between. If the account is correct, it should go through without a warning that the bank account information was incorrect. If the bank account number was indeed incorrect, it should not have gone through on the bank's end of it. What if the customer decided to use a different account to pay the bill? The insurance company has no right to assume that the customer wanted the transaction posted from the previous bank account number. The customer never agreed to automatic billing at any point in the business relationship. If the insurnace company informs the customer that they will not honor the transaction, they forfeit their right to automatically try again with an artifically synthesized bank account number.

 

[kevinthenerd]

Originally posted by: KLin
We need a poll so I can vote that it's the customer's mistake and that he is responsible for any and all overdraft fees. kthxbye.

The customer made a mistake, but you're not understanding the direct causal link. The customer's mistake should have resulted in the transaction not posting at all.

I've seen cases where assumptions on bank account number errors have resulted in taking the payment out of someone else's account. As I said, it's either correct or incorrect; there's no gray area.

 

[kevinthenerd]

A similar thing happened to me one time. My old apartment complex accidently took the money out of my account twice, and they were liable for the overdrafts from the time they deducted it out to the time I informed them.

 

[jagec]

Originally posted by: kevinthenerd

Originally posted by: KLin
We need a poll so I can vote that it's the customer's mistake and that he is responsible for any and all overdraft fees. kthxbye.

The customer made a mistake, but you're not understanding the direct causal link. The customer's mistake should have resulted in the transaction not posting at all.

I've seen cases where assumptions on bank account number errors have resulted in taking the payment out of someone else's account. As I said, it's either correct or incorrect; there's no gray area.

I have to agree with you on this. If the insurance company told you there was an error with the account, and the payment didn't go through, it shouldn't magically go through later.

 

[KarenMarie]

you might want to read the fine print on the insurance website.

i know of at least two accounts that i hold that clearly states that if the first attempt is unsucessful, the will make more than one attempt.

if that is the case, you would be SOL.

 

[MrWizzard]

You were trying to work the system after you made a mistake. It was trick-smart but this time it backfired.

I don't know anyone who purposefully tries to make a payment on something with a wrong account number. Unless they are a scammer.

The Insurance Company was trying to make sure your policy stayed in force.

Why do you cut it so close? Spend a little less money for a couple months so you don't have to live paycheck to paycheck. It will get rid of a lot of stress and avoid situations like these.

 

[amdforever2]

Perhaps your insurance carrier should cancel your policy for trying to defraud them.

Giving them incorrect account information, then spending the money they are entitled to, then bitching when they try to keep your policy in force by fixing the mistake you made.

 

[kevinthenerd]

Originally posted by: MrWizzard
1. You were trying to work the system after you made a mistake. It was trick-smart but this time it backfired.

2. I don't know anyone who purposefully tries to make a payment on something with a wrong account number. Unless they are a scammer.

3. The Insurance Company was trying to make sure your policy stayed in force.

4. Why do you cut it so close? Spend a little less money for a couple months so you don't have to live paycheck to paycheck. It will get rid of a lot of stress and avoid situations like these.

1. There's no "working" involved.

2. It was a mistake, but it's wrong to tell the customer that it didn't go through. What if the customer tried again? They'd have to pay the bill twice, which is very wrong.

3. They don't care about the customer. It takes more than a couple of days to kill the policy anyway. They'd make more profit by charging the late fee. Rather, it sounds to me like they made a mistake and they're not willing to correct it.

3. You don't know the circumstances, and I have no obligation to disclose them. All I need to say is that you should stop making assumptions like that.


Large corporations tend to think that the rules are a little different for them, and I think that somehow they believe that they're incapable of mistakes or fallacious actions, as though somehow impunity is guaranteed by their financial power. Had this been a small business, life would be different. Once you're in a contract, it seems that customer loyalty doesn't enter into the equation whatsoever. They know that a hundred dollars here and there isn't worth the legal cost of fighting it, so they get away with it. It's totally wrong.

I thoroughly believe that a "losers pay" tort system would resolve this problem.

 

[kevinthenerd]

Originally posted by: amdforever2
Perhaps your insurance carrier should cancel your policy for trying to defraud them.

Giving them incorrect account information, then spending the money they are entitled to, then bitching when they try to keep your policy in force by fixing the mistake you made.

The customer never authorized the corrective action. The insurance company should not have assumed that the customer didn't intend to pay the bill from a different account.

 

[MrWizzard]

Originally posted by: MrWizzard
1. You were trying to work the system after you made a mistake. It was trick-smart but this time it backfired.

2. I don't know anyone who purposefully tries to make a payment on something with a wrong account number. Unless they are a scammer.

3. The Insurance Company was trying to make sure your policy stayed in force.

4. Why do you cut it so close? Spend a little less money for a couple months so you don't have to live paycheck to paycheck. It will get rid of a lot of stress and avoid situations like these.

kevinthenerd

1. There's no "working" involved.

2. It was a mistake, but it's wrong to tell the customer that it didn't go through. What if the customer tried again? They'd have to pay the bill twice, which is very wrong.

3. They don't care about the customer. It takes more than a couple of days to kill the policy anyway. They'd make more profit by charging the late fee. Rather, it sounds to me like they made a mistake and they're not willing to correct it.

3. You don't know the circumstances, and I have no obligation to disclose them. All I need to say is that you should stop making assumptions like that.


Large corporations tend to think that the rules are a little different for them, and I think that somehow they believe that they're incapable of mistakes or fallacious actions, as though somehow impunity is guaranteed by their financial power. Had this been a small business, life would be different. Once you're in a contract, it seems that customer loyalty doesn't enter into the equation whatsoever. They know that a hundred dollars here and there isn't worth the legal cost of fighting it, so they get away with it. It's totally wrong.

I thoroughly believe that a "losers pay" tort system would resolve this problem.

Corporations make mistakes. But I don't think they make as many mistakes as people claim.
So maybe they did make a mistake on your account. Then you got left holding the short end of the stick. Sorry life is unfair sometimes, it doesn't go the way you plan. The sooner you move on the better. Is it really worth your time to go after them? If so go for it. It's your time.

As for the whole, You don't know the circumstances, and I have no obligation to disclose them. All I need to say is that you should stop making assumptions like that.

You come to a public place to ask for advice. People are going to make some assumptions about your lifestyle. I didn't say you where going to hell, or a bad person. I simply made a suggestion. A suggestion I have seen fix other people with the exact same issue as you had with the payment.

I am just trying to help you look at the big picture, 20 years from now this won't be a big deal.

People will assume things about you that are not true all your life. Get used to it if it isn't true move on and forget about it.

 

[kevinthenerd]

Originally posted by: MrWizzard
kevinthenerd

1. There's no "working" involved.

2. It was a mistake, but it's wrong to tell the customer that it didn't go through. What if the customer tried again? They'd have to pay the bill twice, which is very wrong.

3. They don't care about the customer. It takes more than a couple of days to kill the policy anyway. They'd make more profit by charging the late fee. Rather, it sounds to me like they made a mistake and they're not willing to correct it.

3. You don't know the circumstances, and I have no obligation to disclose them. All I need to say is that you should stop making assumptions like that.


Large corporations tend to think that the rules are a little different for them, and I think that somehow they believe that they're incapable of mistakes or fallacious actions, as though somehow impunity is guaranteed by their financial power. Had this been a small business, life would be different. Once you're in a contract, it seems that customer loyalty doesn't enter into the equation whatsoever. They know that a hundred dollars here and there isn't worth the legal cost of fighting it, so they get away with it. It's totally wrong.

I thoroughly believe that a "losers pay" tort system would resolve this problem.

Corporations make mistakes. But I don't think they make as many mistakes as people claim.
So maybe they did make a mistake on your account. Then you got left holding the short end of the stick. Sorry life is unfair sometimes, it doesn't go the way you plan. The sooner you move on the better. Is it really worth your time to go after them? If so go for it. It's your time.

As for the whole, You don't know the circumstances, and I have no obligation to disclose them. All I need to say is that you should stop making assumptions like that.

You come to a public place to ask for advice. People are going to make some assumptions about your lifestyle. I didn't say you where going to hell, or a bad person. I simply made a suggestion. A suggestion I have seen fix other people with the exact same issue as you had with the payment.

I am just trying to help you look at the big picture, 20 years from now this won't be a big deal.

People will assume things about you that are not true all your life. Get used to it if it isn't true move on and forget about it.

If nobody stands up to fight, nothing will happen, and people will continue to get screwed. I think people have an obligation to fight that for the common good. It's part of the responsibility of citizenship in a free society. If customers and companies weren't so free to do as they wish, then the burden would be on the government to regulate things, but as it is, it's up to us to make this place the way we want it to be.

 

[IBuyUFO]

Originally posted by: kevinthenerd

Originally posted by: MrWizzard
kevinthenerd

1. There's no "working" involved.

2. It was a mistake, but it's wrong to tell the customer that it didn't go through. What if the customer tried again? They'd have to pay the bill twice, which is very wrong.

3. They don't care about the customer. It takes more than a couple of days to kill the policy anyway. They'd make more profit by charging the late fee. Rather, it sounds to me like they made a mistake and they're not willing to correct it.

3. You don't know the circumstances, and I have no obligation to disclose them. All I need to say is that you should stop making assumptions like that.


Large corporations tend to think that the rules are a little different for them, and I think that somehow they believe that they're incapable of mistakes or fallacious actions, as though somehow impunity is guaranteed by their financial power. Had this been a small business, life would be different. Once you're in a contract, it seems that customer loyalty doesn't enter into the equation whatsoever. They know that a hundred dollars here and there isn't worth the legal cost of fighting it, so they get away with it. It's totally wrong.

I thoroughly believe that a "losers pay" tort system would resolve this problem.

Corporations make mistakes. But I don't think they make as many mistakes as people claim.
So maybe they did make a mistake on your account. Then you got left holding the short end of the stick. Sorry life is unfair sometimes, it doesn't go the way you plan. The sooner you move on the better. Is it really worth your time to go after them? If so go for it. It's your time.

As for the whole, You don't know the circumstances, and I have no obligation to disclose them. All I need to say is that you should stop making assumptions like that.

You come to a public place to ask for advice. People are going to make some assumptions about your lifestyle. I didn't say you where going to hell, or a bad person. I simply made a suggestion. A suggestion I have seen fix other people with the exact same issue as you had with the payment.

I am just trying to help you look at the big picture, 20 years from now this won't be a big deal.

People will assume things about you that are not true all your life. Get used to it if it isn't true move on and forget about it.

If nobody stands up to fight, nothing will happen, and people will continue to get screwed. I think people have an obligation to fight that for the common good. It's part of the responsibility of citizenship in a free society. If customers and companies weren't so free to do as they wish, then the burden would be on the government to regulate things, but as it is, it's up to us to make this place the way we want it to be.

Ok you go fight them then and update the thread when you lose cause you spent your money instead of leaving it in the bank.

 

[MrWizzard]

kevinthenerd

If nobody stands up to fight, nothing will happen, and people will continue to get screwed. I think people have an obligation to fight that for the common good. It's part of the responsibility of citizenship in a free society. If customers and companies weren't so free to do as they wish, then the burden would be on the government to regulate things, but as it is, it's up to us to make this place the way we want it to be.

Well, all I can do is point you in the right direction if you feel that strongly about it.


You would need to lodge a complaint with the Florida Department of Insurance. Or whatever state the policy was issued in's Department of Insurance.

 

[bsobel]

2. It was a mistake, but it's wrong to tell the customer that it didn't go through. What if the customer tried again? They'd have to pay the bill twice, which is very wrong.

Sounds like someone corrected the incorrect account number by refering to an earlier payment. You made an attempt at paying them, they just made sure the transaction completed. If this wasn't the outcome or if you hadn't noticed, you'd probably be pleased that they did this.

So far it sounds like (and I know you don't like hearing this) they didn't do anything wrong, you did.

 

[bsobel]

Originally posted by: amdforever2
Perhaps your insurance carrier should cancel your policy for trying to defraud them.
Giving them incorrect account information, then spending the money they are entitled to, then bitching when they try to keep your policy in force by fixing the mistake you made.

It doesnt sound like there was any effort to defraud anyone. The wrong account information was a mistake, when the the OP found out that the payment hadn't gone thru he decided to just pay it later in the week (Fri vs Tue). The OP just didn't expect the insurance company to correctly recitify the situation (which for most people would be good customer service) and got caught withtout the funds to cover it.

 

[kevinthenerd]

Originally posted by: MrWizzard
kevinthenerd

If nobody stands up to fight, nothing will happen, and people will continue to get screwed. I think people have an obligation to fight that for the common good. It's part of the responsibility of citizenship in a free society. If customers and companies weren't so free to do as they wish, then the burden would be on the government to regulate things, but as it is, it's up to us to make this place the way we want it to be.

Well, all I can do is point you in the right direction if you feel that strongly about it.


You would need to lodge a complaint with the Florida Department of Insurance. Or whatever state the policy was issued in's Department of Insurance.

Thanks. Yes, it's Florida. I suppose the customer could go between the bank and the insurance company, but a third-party arbitrator with authority would be a good place to go.