Bamboozled

BBond

Diamond Member
Oct 3, 2004
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From The Black Commentator, for those who dishonestly insist otherwise...

Bamboozled

Destruction of Social Security Would Harm Black Communities

A big hoax is about to be pulled on the American people in the name of Social Security reform if President Bush and the Republican Congress get their way and send Social Security money to Wall Street. If this happens all Americans will lose big but African Americans will likely receive the shortest end of the stick.

Rationale for Social Security Privatization is Pulp Fiction

Social Security ?reform,? codeword for privatization, seeks to divert all or a portion of the funds currently supporting the Social Security program into 401K-type accounts that individuals can invest in the stock market. While this idea may seem innocuous on its face, the reality is that privatization is a duplicitous attempt to renege on our country?s promise to provide reliable support to aging retirees, disabled workers, and orphaned dependents.

Supporters of individual account proposals seek to perpetuate the fiction that Social Security is facing a fiscal crisis that can be solved only by privatizing the system. In reality, Social Security?s ?crisis? is thus: in the year 2052 the Social Security trust funds will be able to pay 80 cents on every $1 in benefits promised. What privatizers don?t want Americans to know is that this 20 cent gap per dollar of promised benefits is manageable and can be closed without radically altering the system. In fact, the tax cuts President Bush gave away to the wealthiest one percent of Americans could have covered the amount of the long-term Social Security shortfall and there would have still been money left over for other important priorities.

So, if Social Security?s fiscal imbalance is manageable why is it that supporters of privatization are so intent on changing the system? Could it be that they seek cover in their attempts to justify the massive transfer of taxpayer dollars to the money managers on Wall Street ? a move that will further benefit the rich at the expense of working and middle class families? Could it be that they seek to dismantle an efficient federal entitlement program that they have historically resented because all ? including the wealthy ? must contribute? Could it be that, (like corporations who move from defined benefit pension plans to defined contribution plans), they seek to make individuals more responsible for shouldering the financial burden of their own retirement? Or, could it be all of the above?

Plans to Privatize Blow a Hole in Social Security and the Federal Budget

However you assess their strategy, one thing is for certain: proponents do not promote privatization because their plans are affordable, effective, or efficient. Indeed, privatization plans like those put forth by President Bush?s Social Security reform commission, are prohibitively expensive. Not only do they blow a big hole in the Social Security Trust Fund (thereby cutting benefits) by removing trillions of dollars in dedicated revenue, they also require massive transfers of money from the general budget in order to sustain the transition and administrative costs of individual accounts over the short, medium, and long term.

Since President Bush has already ruled out the possibility of raising taxes in order to finance these enormous costs, it is guaranteed that they will have to be paid for by further shrinking Social Security benefits and/or by piling more debt on top of our already steep federal budget deficits ? creating a hole so deep it will take our economy almost 60 years to recover according to the 2004 Economic Report of the President.

African Americans are Harmed by Privatization Plans

Privatization?s likely impact on African American families provides a prime example of why these plans also fail the effectiveness test. Because of historical patterns of discrimination in the U.S. education system and labor market, African Americans are more likely to earn a modest living during the course of their working lives, more likely to have experienced spells of unemployment or underemployment, and more likely to retire with less income from private pensions, assets or personal savings. To add insult to injury, African Americans? disproportionate lack of access to quality, affordable healthcare ? also rooted in education, employment and income inequities ? contributes to our higher rates of disability and early death.

A comprehensive community insurance plan, Social Security provides an equalizing effect in this perfect storm through the provision of a steady monthly check for retirees, for those who become disabled, and for the dependent children and spouse of a worker who has died in the prime of his or her life.

On the whole, Social Security Administration statistics show that African Americans benefit significantly from these benefits. The only source of retirement income for 40 percent of African American seniors, SSA estimates the poverty rate for elderly blacks would more than double ? from 24 percent to 65 percent ? without Social Security. Benefits for black seniors are boosted further by annual cost of living adjustments and a progressive benefit structure that replaces a larger percentage of pre-retirement earnings for lower-income earners. In addition, Social Security?s disability and survivor benefits are also extremely important for black families. Although only 12 percent of the U.S. population, African Americans are almost 18 percent of those receiving disability benefits. In addition, black children represent 23 percent of all children receiving survivor benefits.

Given the various ways in which Social Security benefits black families, how would privatization proposals stack up? The short answer: they don?t. By diverting trillions of dollars in revenue away from Social Security, privatization plans require drastic up-front cuts to Social Security thereby reducing the guaranteed amount received by African American seniors on modest, fixed-incomes. Since they are all factored into the same OASDI (Old Age, Survivor and Disability Insurance) formula, the diversion will also reduce and destabilize the disability and survivor aspects of Social Security that are vital to African American families. Private accounts also eliminate the progressive aspects of the current system that provide more help for African American seniors (those privatizers who say they maintain progressivity by allowing low-income earners to contribute more to their individual accounts are only guaranteeing them more exposure to the risks of the stock market).

And will African Americans be able to make up for these reductions through earnings from their individual accounts as privatizers claim? The answer ranges from maybe to no. First, is the obvious that the stock market?s notorious fluctuations cannot guarantee the long-term growth of amounts contributed to individual accounts. But income inequalities would still be exacerbated for African American families under healthy stock market assumptions. This is true because, in the absence of a real progressive benefit structure, black families would only accrue interest on their smaller wage-based contributions. And, because of higher unemployment rates, African Americans would be doubly vulnerable to having periods of zero earnings where no contributions at all are made to individual accounts. Unlike Social Security, individual accounts would not offset this labor market disadvantage. Finally, the higher administrative fees associated with these accounts are likely to wipe out a significant portion of any accumulated earnings.

Thus, the unsteadiness of the market, smaller wage-based contributions, greater periods of unemployment, and high administrative fees make all African Americans, but especially low-income earners, vulnerable to the risk of having an inadequate level of retirement benefits under private individual accounts.

The problems are even greater for disability and survivor benefits. While the President?s Commission did not address what would happen to these benefits, it is widely understood that individual accounts cannot make up for their value because these benefits are often needed in the prime of a worker?s life ? long before accounts have had time to accumulate significant earned interest.

Privatization Destroys Communities

Privatizers consistently argue that African Americans will experience a greater rate of return under a system of individual accounts. Their assertion, however, misses the point: it is misleading to measure Social Security benefits by rates of return. Unlike the private securities market, Social Security is an insurance system that re-distributes economic assistance to contributors and their families on an as needed basis at various points during their lives. The value of this assistance for working and middle class African Americans families, particularly in the event of unexpected occurrences like disability or death, is priceless when considering how expensive it would be if offered by the private insurance market.

Overall, African Americans are likely to experience a negative rate of return. This is true particularly for younger generations who would have the triple burden of paying for current retirees, paying for their own individual accounts, and figuring out how to meet living costs in the face of diminished disability and survivor benefits. This state of affairs would be complicated by the fact that heavy borrowing will lead to the reduction or elimination of other social programs important to African American communities.

There are 101 very good reasons why Americans of all backgrounds should rise up to defeat attempts to privatize the Social Security system. African Americans, however, should be highly alarmed about privatization?s implications for the economic stability of their families and community. For it is a guaranteed formula for disaster when senior citizens, disabled workers, and children whose caregivers are deceased no longer have the ability to put food on their table or a roof over their heads.

Dr. Maya Rockeymoore is currently Vice President of Research and Programs at the Congressional Black Caucus Foundation. Previously serving on the Social Security Subcommittee of the U.S. House of Representatives Committee on Ways and Means, she is the co-editor of Strengthening Communities: Social Insurance in a Diverse America and author of The Political Action Handbook: A How To Guide for the Hip Hop Generation.

 

Ozoned

Diamond Member
Mar 22, 2004
5,578
0
0
I personally think that African Americans, like the rest of Americans, are smart, and don't want to put their trust, for their retirement future, in the government. :gift:

Especially given the fact that they do currently get the short end of the stick, as the article noted....
 

charrison

Lifer
Oct 13, 1999
17,033
1
81
Originally posted by: BBond
From The Black Commentator, for those who dishonestly insist otherwise...

Bamboozled

Destruction of Social Security Would Harm Black Communities

A big hoax is about to be pulled on the American people in the name of Social Security reform if President Bush and the Republican Congress get their way and send Social Security money to Wall Street. If this happens all Americans will lose big but African Americans will likely receive the shortest end of the stick.

Rationale for Social Security Privatization is Pulp Fiction

Social Security ?reform,? codeword for privatization, seeks to divert all or a portion of the funds currently supporting the Social Security program into 401K-type accounts that individuals can invest in the stock market. While this idea may seem innocuous on its face, the reality is that privatization is a duplicitous attempt to renege on our country?s promise to provide reliable support to aging retirees, disabled workers, and orphaned dependents.

Supporters of individual account proposals seek to perpetuate the fiction that Social Security is facing a fiscal crisis that can be solved only by privatizing the system. In reality, Social Security?s ?crisis? is thus: in the year 2052 the Social Security trust funds will be able to pay 80 cents on every $1 in benefits promised. What privatizers don?t want Americans to know is that this 20 cent gap per dollar of promised benefits is manageable and can be closed without radically altering the system. In fact, the tax cuts President Bush gave away to the wealthiest one percent of Americans could have covered the amount of the long-term Social Security shortfall and there would have still been money left over for other important priorities.

So, if Social Security?s fiscal imbalance is manageable why is it that supporters of privatization are so intent on changing the system? Could it be that they seek cover in their attempts to justify the massive transfer of taxpayer dollars to the money managers on Wall Street ? a move that will further benefit the rich at the expense of working and middle class families? Could it be that they seek to dismantle an efficient federal entitlement program that they have historically resented because all ? including the wealthy ? must contribute? Could it be that, (like corporations who move from defined benefit pension plans to defined contribution plans), they seek to make individuals more responsible for shouldering the financial burden of their own retirement? Or, could it be all of the above?

Plans to Privatize Blow a Hole in Social Security and the Federal Budget

However you assess their strategy, one thing is for certain: proponents do not promote privatization because their plans are affordable, effective, or efficient. Indeed, privatization plans like those put forth by President Bush?s Social Security reform commission, are prohibitively expensive. Not only do they blow a big hole in the Social Security Trust Fund (thereby cutting benefits) by removing trillions of dollars in dedicated revenue, they also require massive transfers of money from the general budget in order to sustain the transition and administrative costs of individual accounts over the short, medium, and long term.

Since President Bush has already ruled out the possibility of raising taxes in order to finance these enormous costs, it is guaranteed that they will have to be paid for by further shrinking Social Security benefits and/or by piling more debt on top of our already steep federal budget deficits ? creating a hole so deep it will take our economy almost 60 years to recover according to the 2004 Economic Report of the President.

African Americans are Harmed by Privatization Plans

Privatization?s likely impact on African American families provides a prime example of why these plans also fail the effectiveness test. Because of historical patterns of discrimination in the U.S. education system and labor market, African Americans are more likely to earn a modest living during the course of their working lives, more likely to have experienced spells of unemployment or underemployment, and more likely to retire with less income from private pensions, assets or personal savings. To add insult to injury, African Americans? disproportionate lack of access to quality, affordable healthcare ? also rooted in education, employment and income inequities ? contributes to our higher rates of disability and early death.

A comprehensive community insurance plan, Social Security provides an equalizing effect in this perfect storm through the provision of a steady monthly check for retirees, for those who become disabled, and for the dependent children and spouse of a worker who has died in the prime of his or her life.

On the whole, Social Security Administration statistics show that African Americans benefit significantly from these benefits. The only source of retirement income for 40 percent of African American seniors, SSA estimates the poverty rate for elderly blacks would more than double ? from 24 percent to 65 percent ? without Social Security. Benefits for black seniors are boosted further by annual cost of living adjustments and a progressive benefit structure that replaces a larger percentage of pre-retirement earnings for lower-income earners. In addition, Social Security?s disability and survivor benefits are also extremely important for black families. Although only 12 percent of the U.S. population, African Americans are almost 18 percent of those receiving disability benefits. In addition, black children represent 23 percent of all children receiving survivor benefits.

Given the various ways in which Social Security benefits black families, how would privatization proposals stack up? The short answer: they don?t. By diverting trillions of dollars in revenue away from Social Security, privatization plans require drastic up-front cuts to Social Security thereby reducing the guaranteed amount received by African American seniors on modest, fixed-incomes. Since they are all factored into the same OASDI (Old Age, Survivor and Disability Insurance) formula, the diversion will also reduce and destabilize the disability and survivor aspects of Social Security that are vital to African American families. Private accounts also eliminate the progressive aspects of the current system that provide more help for African American seniors (those privatizers who say they maintain progressivity by allowing low-income earners to contribute more to their individual accounts are only guaranteeing them more exposure to the risks of the stock market).

And will African Americans be able to make up for these reductions through earnings from their individual accounts as privatizers claim? The answer ranges from maybe to no. First, is the obvious that the stock market?s notorious fluctuations cannot guarantee the long-term growth of amounts contributed to individual accounts. But income inequalities would still be exacerbated for African American families under healthy stock market assumptions. This is true because, in the absence of a real progressive benefit structure, black families would only accrue interest on their smaller wage-based contributions. And, because of higher unemployment rates, African Americans would be doubly vulnerable to having periods of zero earnings where no contributions at all are made to individual accounts. Unlike Social Security, individual accounts would not offset this labor market disadvantage. Finally, the higher administrative fees associated with these accounts are likely to wipe out a significant portion of any accumulated earnings.

Thus, the unsteadiness of the market, smaller wage-based contributions, greater periods of unemployment, and high administrative fees make all African Americans, but especially low-income earners, vulnerable to the risk of having an inadequate level of retirement benefits under private individual accounts.

The problems are even greater for disability and survivor benefits. While the President?s Commission did not address what would happen to these benefits, it is widely understood that individual accounts cannot make up for their value because these benefits are often needed in the prime of a worker?s life ? long before accounts have had time to accumulate significant earned interest.

Privatization Destroys Communities

Privatizers consistently argue that African Americans will experience a greater rate of return under a system of individual accounts. Their assertion, however, misses the point: it is misleading to measure Social Security benefits by rates of return. Unlike the private securities market, Social Security is an insurance system that re-distributes economic assistance to contributors and their families on an as needed basis at various points during their lives. The value of this assistance for working and middle class African Americans families, particularly in the event of unexpected occurrences like disability or death, is priceless when considering how expensive it would be if offered by the private insurance market.

Overall, African Americans are likely to experience a negative rate of return. This is true particularly for younger generations who would have the triple burden of paying for current retirees, paying for their own individual accounts, and figuring out how to meet living costs in the face of diminished disability and survivor benefits. This state of affairs would be complicated by the fact that heavy borrowing will lead to the reduction or elimination of other social programs important to African American communities.

There are 101 very good reasons why Americans of all backgrounds should rise up to defeat attempts to privatize the Social Security system. African Americans, however, should be highly alarmed about privatization?s implications for the economic stability of their families and community. For it is a guaranteed formula for disaster when senior citizens, disabled workers, and children whose caregivers are deceased no longer have the ability to put food on their table or a roof over their heads.

Dr. Maya Rockeymoore is currently Vice President of Research and Programs at the Congressional Black Caucus Foundation. Previously serving on the Social Security Subcommittee of the U.S. House of Representatives Committee on Ways and Means, she is the co-editor of Strengthening Communities: Social Insurance in a Diverse America and author of The Political Action Handbook: A How To Guide for the Hip Hop Generation.



WHy would it matter. Significantly more black die before retirement than do whites Pretty good deal for the goverment, pretty bad deal for blacks.
 

BBond

Diamond Member
Oct 3, 2004
8,363
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Originally posted by: charrison

WHy would it matter. Significantly more black die before retirement than do whites Pretty good deal for the goverment, pretty bad deal for blacks.

Here's why it would matter. From the OP.

A comprehensive community insurance plan, Social Security provides an equalizing effect in this perfect storm through the provision of a steady monthly check for retirees, for those who become disabled, and for the dependent children and spouse of a worker who has died in the prime of his or her life.

On the whole, Social Security Administration statistics show that African Americans benefit significantly from these benefits. The only source of retirement income for 40 percent of African American seniors, SSA estimates the poverty rate for elderly blacks would more than double ? from 24 percent to 65 percent ? without Social Security. Benefits for black seniors are boosted further by annual cost of living adjustments and a progressive benefit structure that replaces a larger percentage of pre-retirement earnings for lower-income earners. In addition, Social Security?s disability and survivor benefits are also extremely important for black families. Although only 12 percent of the U.S. population, African Americans are almost 18 percent of those receiving disability benefits. In addition, black children represent 23 percent of all children receiving survivor benefits.

 

charrison

Lifer
Oct 13, 1999
17,033
1
81
Originally posted by: BBond
Originally posted by: charrison

WHy would it matter. Significantly more black die before retirement than do whites Pretty good deal for the goverment, pretty bad deal for blacks.

Here's why it would matter. From the OP.

A comprehensive community insurance plan, Social Security provides an equalizing effect in this perfect storm through the provision of a steady monthly check for retirees, for those who become disabled, and for the dependent children and spouse of a worker who has died in the prime of his or her life.

On the whole, Social Security Administration statistics show that African Americans benefit significantly from these benefits. The only source of retirement income for 40 percent of African American seniors, SSA estimates the poverty rate for elderly blacks would more than double ? from 24 percent to 65 percent ? without Social Security. Benefits for black seniors are boosted further by annual cost of living adjustments and a progressive benefit structure that replaces a larger percentage of pre-retirement earnings for lower-income earners. In addition, Social Security?s disability and survivor benefits are also extremely important for black families. Although only 12 percent of the U.S. population, African Americans are almost 18 percent of those receiving disability benefits. In addition, black children represent 23 percent of all children receiving survivor benefits.


Those that make it to retirement.....those that dont are just screwed and the liberals dont care.
 

Ozoned

Diamond Member
Mar 22, 2004
5,578
0
0
Originally posted by: charrison


Those that make it to retirement.....those that dont are just screwed and the liberals dont care.[/quote]
It is the intension of the action that counts, not the actual mechanics.
 
Feb 3, 2001
5,156
0
0
Ah, so we should enslave people for the sake of the black community now, eh? Talk about history coming full circle.

And here I had hoped we'd learned from our mistakes.

Jason
 

BBond

Diamond Member
Oct 3, 2004
8,363
0
0
Originally posted by: DragonMasterAlex
Ah, so we should enslave people for the sake of the black community now, eh? Talk about history coming full circle.

And here I had hoped we'd learned from our mistakes.

Jason

That is one of the most ignorant statements I have ever heard.

What about the millions of workers who already paid a lifetime into Social Security. Wouldn't denying them benefits after they've already paid into the system be tantamount to slavery as well by your reasoning?

 

charrison

Lifer
Oct 13, 1999
17,033
1
81
Originally posted by: BBond
Originally posted by: DragonMasterAlex
Ah, so we should enslave people for the sake of the black community now, eh? Talk about history coming full circle.

And here I had hoped we'd learned from our mistakes.

Jason

That is one of the most ignorant statements I have ever heard.

What about the millions of workers who already paid a lifetime into Social Security. Wouldn't denying them benefits after they've already paid into the system be tantamount to slavery as well by your reasoning?



What about the millions that are paying in now and will not get anything whten they retire?
 
Feb 3, 2001
5,156
0
0
Originally posted by: BBond
Originally posted by: DragonMasterAlex
Ah, so we should enslave people for the sake of the black community now, eh? Talk about history coming full circle.

And here I had hoped we'd learned from our mistakes.

Jason

That is one of the most ignorant statements I have ever heard.

What about the millions of workers who already paid a lifetime into Social Security. Wouldn't denying them benefits after they've already paid into the system be tantamount to slavery as well by your reasoning?

You're the king of ignorant here, bub. NO ONE has even MENTIONED cutting off those who have paid into Socialist Security. Get your facts straight you ignorant child.

Jason
 
Feb 3, 2001
5,156
0
0
Originally posted by: charrison
Originally posted by: BBond
Originally posted by: DragonMasterAlex
Ah, so we should enslave people for the sake of the black community now, eh? Talk about history coming full circle.

And here I had hoped we'd learned from our mistakes.

Jason

That is one of the most ignorant statements I have ever heard.

What about the millions of workers who already paid a lifetime into Social Security. Wouldn't denying them benefits after they've already paid into the system be tantamount to slavery as well by your reasoning?



What about the millions that are paying in now and will not get anything whten they retire?

Good point, usually ignored.
 

BBond

Diamond Member
Oct 3, 2004
8,363
0
0
Originally posted by: DragonMasterAlex
Originally posted by: charrison
Originally posted by: BBond
Originally posted by: DragonMasterAlex
Ah, so we should enslave people for the sake of the black community now, eh? Talk about history coming full circle.

And here I had hoped we'd learned from our mistakes.

Jason

That is one of the most ignorant statements I have ever heard.

What about the millions of workers who already paid a lifetime into Social Security. Wouldn't denying them benefits after they've already paid into the system be tantamount to slavery as well by your reasoning?



What about the millions that are paying in now and will not get anything whten they retire?

Good point, usually ignored.

That is a myth perpetrated by the Bush administration to destroy Social Security and get their hands on the $2 trillion Social Security surplus. They've already emptied the Treasury. Budget deficits stretch as far as the eye can see thanks to Bush and the Republicans. The Social Security surplus is the only thing they haven't emptied. And with the help of alarmists they'll empty that too.

BTW, did any of you bother to read the OP? Because I noticed no one is refuting the facts stated therein. ;)

 

charrison

Lifer
Oct 13, 1999
17,033
1
81
Originally posted by: BBond
Originally posted by: DragonMasterAlex
Originally posted by: charrison
Originally posted by: BBond
Originally posted by: DragonMasterAlex
Ah, so we should enslave people for the sake of the black community now, eh? Talk about history coming full circle.

And here I had hoped we'd learned from our mistakes.

Jason

That is one of the most ignorant statements I have ever heard.

What about the millions of workers who already paid a lifetime into Social Security. Wouldn't denying them benefits after they've already paid into the system be tantamount to slavery as well by your reasoning?



What about the millions that are paying in now and will not get anything whten they retire?

Good point, usually ignored.

That is a myth perpetrated by the Bush administration to destroy Social Security and get their hands on the $2 trillion Social Security surplus. They've already emptied the Treasury. Budget deficits stretch as far as the eye can see thanks to Bush and the Republicans. The Social Security surplus is the only thing they haven't emptied. And with the help of alarmists they'll empty that too.

BTW, did any of you bother to read the OP? Because I noticed no one is refuting the facts stated therein. ;)



THey why is cbo talking about reducded benefits for those that will be retiring in the next 30 years.. You know todays workers.

But look at what another president had to say

?We have a great opportunity now to take action now to avert a crisis in the Social Security system. By 2030, there will be twice as many elderly as there are today, with only two people working for every person drawing Social Security. After 2032, contributions from payroll taxes will only cover 75 cents on the dollar of current benefits. So we must act, and act now, to save Social Security.? -Bill Clinton, February, 1998


I guess he was just trying to start a crisis to.
 

BBond

Diamond Member
Oct 3, 2004
8,363
0
0
Originally posted by: charrison
Originally posted by: BBond
Originally posted by: DragonMasterAlex
Originally posted by: charrison
Originally posted by: BBond
Originally posted by: DragonMasterAlex
Ah, so we should enslave people for the sake of the black community now, eh? Talk about history coming full circle.

And here I had hoped we'd learned from our mistakes.

Jason

That is one of the most ignorant statements I have ever heard.

What about the millions of workers who already paid a lifetime into Social Security. Wouldn't denying them benefits after they've already paid into the system be tantamount to slavery as well by your reasoning?



What about the millions that are paying in now and will not get anything whten they retire?

Good point, usually ignored.

That is a myth perpetrated by the Bush administration to destroy Social Security and get their hands on the $2 trillion Social Security surplus. They've already emptied the Treasury. Budget deficits stretch as far as the eye can see thanks to Bush and the Republicans. The Social Security surplus is the only thing they haven't emptied. And with the help of alarmists they'll empty that too.

BTW, did any of you bother to read the OP? Because I noticed no one is refuting the facts stated therein. ;)



THey why is cbo talking about reducded benefits for those that will be retiring in the next 30 years.. You know todays workers.

But look at what another president had to say

?We have a great opportunity now to take action now to avert a crisis in the Social Security system. By 2030, there will be twice as many elderly as there are today, with only two people working for every person drawing Social Security. After 2032, contributions from payroll taxes will only cover 75 cents on the dollar of current benefits. So we must act, and act now, to save Social Security.? -Bill Clinton, February, 1998


I guess he was just trying to start a crisis to.

There is no crisis. Minor adjustments will keep the system solvent. Read the OP.

What privatizers don?t want Americans to know is that this 20 cent gap per dollar of promised benefits is manageable and can be closed without radically altering the system. In fact, the tax cuts President Bush gave away to the wealthiest one percent of Americans could have covered the amount of the long-term Social Security shortfall and there would have still been money left over for other important priorities.

Now that the surplus has been squandered, start by dropping the income cap on Social Security taxes until the system is stable.



The fix is simple
 

charrison

Lifer
Oct 13, 1999
17,033
1
81
Originally posted by: BBond
Originally posted by: charrison
Originally posted by: BBond
Originally posted by: DragonMasterAlex
Originally posted by: charrison
Originally posted by: BBond
Originally posted by: DragonMasterAlex
Ah, so we should enslave people for the sake of the black community now, eh? Talk about history coming full circle.

And here I had hoped we'd learned from our mistakes.

Jason

That is one of the most ignorant statements I have ever heard.

What about the millions of workers who already paid a lifetime into Social Security. Wouldn't denying them benefits after they've already paid into the system be tantamount to slavery as well by your reasoning?



What about the millions that are paying in now and will not get anything whten they retire?

Good point, usually ignored.

That is a myth perpetrated by the Bush administration to destroy Social Security and get their hands on the $2 trillion Social Security surplus. They've already emptied the Treasury. Budget deficits stretch as far as the eye can see thanks to Bush and the Republicans. The Social Security surplus is the only thing they haven't emptied. And with the help of alarmists they'll empty that too.

BTW, did any of you bother to read the OP? Because I noticed no one is refuting the facts stated therein. ;)



THey why is cbo talking about reducded benefits for those that will be retiring in the next 30 years.. You know todays workers.

But look at what another president had to say

?We have a great opportunity now to take action now to avert a crisis in the Social Security system. By 2030, there will be twice as many elderly as there are today, with only two people working for every person drawing Social Security. After 2032, contributions from payroll taxes will only cover 75 cents on the dollar of current benefits. So we must act, and act now, to save Social Security.? -Bill Clinton, February, 1998


I guess he was just trying to start a crisis to.

There is no crisis. Minor adjustments will keep the system solvent. Read the OP.

What privatizers don?t want Americans to know is that this 20 cent gap per dollar of promised benefits is manageable and can be closed without radically altering the system. In fact, the tax cuts President Bush gave away to the wealthiest one percent of Americans could have covered the amount of the long-term Social Security shortfall and there would have still been money left over for other important priorities.

Now that the surplus has been squandered, start by dropping the income cap on Social Security taxes until the system is stable.



The fix is simple



Lets see, SS started with 2% payroll tax. Now it is 12.5% and they will be coming for more soon. DO nothing and the cbo says there will be 25% reduction in benefits in 30 years. Do nothing and taxes will go up in 10 years to pay those bonds. It seems the only thing SS does is consume more taxes as time goes by.


maybe this will help you visualize the current problem
 

BBond

Diamond Member
Oct 3, 2004
8,363
0
0
Originally posted by: charrison
Originally posted by: BBond
Originally posted by: charrison
Originally posted by: BBond
Originally posted by: DragonMasterAlex
Originally posted by: charrison
Originally posted by: BBond
Originally posted by: DragonMasterAlex
Ah, so we should enslave people for the sake of the black community now, eh? Talk about history coming full circle.

And here I had hoped we'd learned from our mistakes.

Jason

That is one of the most ignorant statements I have ever heard.

What about the millions of workers who already paid a lifetime into Social Security. Wouldn't denying them benefits after they've already paid into the system be tantamount to slavery as well by your reasoning?



What about the millions that are paying in now and will not get anything whten they retire?

Good point, usually ignored.

That is a myth perpetrated by the Bush administration to destroy Social Security and get their hands on the $2 trillion Social Security surplus. They've already emptied the Treasury. Budget deficits stretch as far as the eye can see thanks to Bush and the Republicans. The Social Security surplus is the only thing they haven't emptied. And with the help of alarmists they'll empty that too.

BTW, did any of you bother to read the OP? Because I noticed no one is refuting the facts stated therein. ;)



THey why is cbo talking about reducded benefits for those that will be retiring in the next 30 years.. You know todays workers.

But look at what another president had to say

?We have a great opportunity now to take action now to avert a crisis in the Social Security system. By 2030, there will be twice as many elderly as there are today, with only two people working for every person drawing Social Security. After 2032, contributions from payroll taxes will only cover 75 cents on the dollar of current benefits. So we must act, and act now, to save Social Security.? -Bill Clinton, February, 1998


I guess he was just trying to start a crisis to.

There is no crisis. Minor adjustments will keep the system solvent. Read the OP.

What privatizers don?t want Americans to know is that this 20 cent gap per dollar of promised benefits is manageable and can be closed without radically altering the system. In fact, the tax cuts President Bush gave away to the wealthiest one percent of Americans could have covered the amount of the long-term Social Security shortfall and there would have still been money left over for other important priorities.

Now that the surplus has been squandered, start by dropping the income cap on Social Security taxes until the system is stable.



The fix is simple



Lets see, SS started with 2% payroll tax. Now it is 12.5% and they will be coming for more soon. DO nothing and the cbo says there will be 25% reduction in benefits in 30 years. Do nothing and taxes will go up in 10 years to pay those bonds. It seems the only thing SS does is consume more taxes as time goes by.


maybe this will help you visualize the current problem

It's a 6.5% payroll tax on workers. Don't mis-state the facts. Employers match the workers' payroll tax.

We aren't going to agree and you're not going to make judgements based on facts so no use arguing with you any more.

SS is easy to fix. You want to destroy it, I suppose, because you're too cheap to pay your share. And Bush wants to destroy it so he can get his hands on that surplus.

There is no crisis. Drop the income cap on SS taxes. Problem solved.

 

charrison

Lifer
Oct 13, 1999
17,033
1
81
Originally posted by: BBond
Originally posted by: charrison
Originally posted by: BBond
Originally posted by: charrison
Originally posted by: BBond
Originally posted by: DragonMasterAlex
Originally posted by: charrison
Originally posted by: BBond
Originally posted by: DragonMasterAlex
Ah, so we should enslave people for the sake of the black community now, eh? Talk about history coming full circle.

And here I had hoped we'd learned from our mistakes.

Jason

That is one of the most ignorant statements I have ever heard.

What about the millions of workers who already paid a lifetime into Social Security. Wouldn't denying them benefits after they've already paid into the system be tantamount to slavery as well by your reasoning?



What about the millions that are paying in now and will not get anything whten they retire?

Good point, usually ignored.

That is a myth perpetrated by the Bush administration to destroy Social Security and get their hands on the $2 trillion Social Security surplus. They've already emptied the Treasury. Budget deficits stretch as far as the eye can see thanks to Bush and the Republicans. The Social Security surplus is the only thing they haven't emptied. And with the help of alarmists they'll empty that too.

BTW, did any of you bother to read the OP? Because I noticed no one is refuting the facts stated therein. ;)



THey why is cbo talking about reducded benefits for those that will be retiring in the next 30 years.. You know todays workers.

But look at what another president had to say

?We have a great opportunity now to take action now to avert a crisis in the Social Security system. By 2030, there will be twice as many elderly as there are today, with only two people working for every person drawing Social Security. After 2032, contributions from payroll taxes will only cover 75 cents on the dollar of current benefits. So we must act, and act now, to save Social Security.? -Bill Clinton, February, 1998


I guess he was just trying to start a crisis to.

There is no crisis. Minor adjustments will keep the system solvent. Read the OP.

What privatizers don?t want Americans to know is that this 20 cent gap per dollar of promised benefits is manageable and can be closed without radically altering the system. In fact, the tax cuts President Bush gave away to the wealthiest one percent of Americans could have covered the amount of the long-term Social Security shortfall and there would have still been money left over for other important priorities.

Now that the surplus has been squandered, start by dropping the income cap on Social Security taxes until the system is stable.



The fix is simple



Lets see, SS started with 2% payroll tax. Now it is 12.5% and they will be coming for more soon. DO nothing and the cbo says there will be 25% reduction in benefits in 30 years. Do nothing and taxes will go up in 10 years to pay those bonds. It seems the only thing SS does is consume more taxes as time goes by.


maybe this will help you visualize the current problem

It's a 6.5% payroll tax on workers. Don't mis-state the facts. Employers match the workers' payroll tax.


12.5% is gone total. Dont ignore the match, just because they employer pays. That could be your salary or lower cost products. The worker is paying for it, one way or another and you are falling for the shell game.



We aren't going to agree and you're not going to make judgements based on facts so no use arguing with you any more.


The facts are SS sucks for current workers and it will be worse for our kids as the worker:retiree ratio drops. I will not steal from my kids to have a retirement, but apparenty you have no problem doing that.


SS is easy to fix. You want to destroy it, I suppose, because you're too cheap to pay your share. And Bush wants to destroy it so he can get his hands on that surplus.


There are lots of fixes possible, doing nothing is not an option.




There is no crisis. Drop the income cap on SS taxes. Problem solved.

There is no crisis for your retired ass. You got yours and you dont care if the system will be around for your kids or grandkids. Looks like the boomers are going to be known as the greediest generation.
 

BBond

Diamond Member
Oct 3, 2004
8,363
0
0
Originally posted by: charrison
Originally posted by: BBond
Originally posted by: charrison
Originally posted by: BBond
Originally posted by: charrison
Originally posted by: BBond
Originally posted by: DragonMasterAlex
Originally posted by: charrison
Originally posted by: BBond
Originally posted by: DragonMasterAlex
Ah, so we should enslave people for the sake of the black community now, eh? Talk about history coming full circle.

And here I had hoped we'd learned from our mistakes.

Jason

That is one of the most ignorant statements I have ever heard.

What about the millions of workers who already paid a lifetime into Social Security. Wouldn't denying them benefits after they've already paid into the system be tantamount to slavery as well by your reasoning?



What about the millions that are paying in now and will not get anything whten they retire?

Good point, usually ignored.

That is a myth perpetrated by the Bush administration to destroy Social Security and get their hands on the $2 trillion Social Security surplus. They've already emptied the Treasury. Budget deficits stretch as far as the eye can see thanks to Bush and the Republicans. The Social Security surplus is the only thing they haven't emptied. And with the help of alarmists they'll empty that too.

BTW, did any of you bother to read the OP? Because I noticed no one is refuting the facts stated therein. ;)



THey why is cbo talking about reducded benefits for those that will be retiring in the next 30 years.. You know todays workers.

But look at what another president had to say

?We have a great opportunity now to take action now to avert a crisis in the Social Security system. By 2030, there will be twice as many elderly as there are today, with only two people working for every person drawing Social Security. After 2032, contributions from payroll taxes will only cover 75 cents on the dollar of current benefits. So we must act, and act now, to save Social Security.? -Bill Clinton, February, 1998


I guess he was just trying to start a crisis to.

There is no crisis. Minor adjustments will keep the system solvent. Read the OP.

What privatizers don?t want Americans to know is that this 20 cent gap per dollar of promised benefits is manageable and can be closed without radically altering the system. In fact, the tax cuts President Bush gave away to the wealthiest one percent of Americans could have covered the amount of the long-term Social Security shortfall and there would have still been money left over for other important priorities.

Now that the surplus has been squandered, start by dropping the income cap on Social Security taxes until the system is stable.



The fix is simple



Lets see, SS started with 2% payroll tax. Now it is 12.5% and they will be coming for more soon. DO nothing and the cbo says there will be 25% reduction in benefits in 30 years. Do nothing and taxes will go up in 10 years to pay those bonds. It seems the only thing SS does is consume more taxes as time goes by.


maybe this will help you visualize the current problem

It's a 6.5% payroll tax on workers. Don't mis-state the facts. Employers match the workers' payroll tax.


12.5% is gone total. Dont ignore the match, just because they employer pays. That could be your salary or lower cost products. The worker is paying for it, one way or another and you are falling for the shell game.



We aren't going to agree and you're not going to make judgements based on facts so no use arguing with you any more.


The facts are SS sucks for current workers and it will be worse for our kids as the worker:retiree ratio drops. I will not steal from my kids to have a retirement, but apparenty you have no problem doing that.


SS is easy to fix. You want to destroy it, I suppose, because you're too cheap to pay your share. And Bush wants to destroy it so he can get his hands on that surplus.


There are lots of fixes possible, doing nothing is not an option.




There is no crisis. Drop the income cap on SS taxes. Problem solved.

There is no crisis for your retired ass. You got yours and you dont care if the system will be around for your kids or grandkids. Looks like the boomers are going to be known as the greediest generation.

I paid for decades. Now I'm getting the benefits promised me. If you see a problem with that, you'd do well as a con man.

We'll all get old someday. It's either that or die. When you reach old age I hope you have your own loud mouth know nothing who hates the elderly as much as you do,

People work all their lives, do their part, and have to be insulted for living long enough to actually get a return on the money they paid into Social Security. What a disgrace.

If the boomers will be known as the greediest generation your generation will be know as the cheapest.

Drop the income cap on SS taxes until the system is stable. Problem solved.

You don't get to welch on your responsibilities and your kids and grandkids don't get stuck with an extra couple of trillion dollar bill to cover Bush's faulty plan to fix a non-existent crisis.

 

charrison

Lifer
Oct 13, 1999
17,033
1
81
Originally posted by: BBond
Originally posted by: charrison
Originally posted by: BBond
Originally posted by: charrison
Originally posted by: BBond
Originally posted by: charrison
Originally posted by: BBond
Originally posted by: DragonMasterAlex
Originally posted by: charrison
Originally posted by: BBond
Originally posted by: DragonMasterAlex
Ah, so we should enslave people for the sake of the black community now, eh? Talk about history coming full circle.

And here I had hoped we'd learned from our mistakes.

Jason

That is one of the most ignorant statements I have ever heard.

What about the millions of workers who already paid a lifetime into Social Security. Wouldn't denying them benefits after they've already paid into the system be tantamount to slavery as well by your reasoning?



What about the millions that are paying in now and will not get anything whten they retire?

Good point, usually ignored.

That is a myth perpetrated by the Bush administration to destroy Social Security and get their hands on the $2 trillion Social Security surplus. They've already emptied the Treasury. Budget deficits stretch as far as the eye can see thanks to Bush and the Republicans. The Social Security surplus is the only thing they haven't emptied. And with the help of alarmists they'll empty that too.

BTW, did any of you bother to read the OP? Because I noticed no one is refuting the facts stated therein. ;)



THey why is cbo talking about reducded benefits for those that will be retiring in the next 30 years.. You know todays workers.

But look at what another president had to say

?We have a great opportunity now to take action now to avert a crisis in the Social Security system. By 2030, there will be twice as many elderly as there are today, with only two people working for every person drawing Social Security. After 2032, contributions from payroll taxes will only cover 75 cents on the dollar of current benefits. So we must act, and act now, to save Social Security.? -Bill Clinton, February, 1998


I guess he was just trying to start a crisis to.

There is no crisis. Minor adjustments will keep the system solvent. Read the OP.

What privatizers don?t want Americans to know is that this 20 cent gap per dollar of promised benefits is manageable and can be closed without radically altering the system. In fact, the tax cuts President Bush gave away to the wealthiest one percent of Americans could have covered the amount of the long-term Social Security shortfall and there would have still been money left over for other important priorities.

Now that the surplus has been squandered, start by dropping the income cap on Social Security taxes until the system is stable.



The fix is simple



Lets see, SS started with 2% payroll tax. Now it is 12.5% and they will be coming for more soon. DO nothing and the cbo says there will be 25% reduction in benefits in 30 years. Do nothing and taxes will go up in 10 years to pay those bonds. It seems the only thing SS does is consume more taxes as time goes by.


maybe this will help you visualize the current problem

It's a 6.5% payroll tax on workers. Don't mis-state the facts. Employers match the workers' payroll tax.


12.5% is gone total. Dont ignore the match, just because they employer pays. That could be your salary or lower cost products. The worker is paying for it, one way or another and you are falling for the shell game.



We aren't going to agree and you're not going to make judgements based on facts so no use arguing with you any more.


The facts are SS sucks for current workers and it will be worse for our kids as the worker:retiree ratio drops. I will not steal from my kids to have a retirement, but apparenty you have no problem doing that.


SS is easy to fix. You want to destroy it, I suppose, because you're too cheap to pay your share. And Bush wants to destroy it so he can get his hands on that surplus.


There are lots of fixes possible, doing nothing is not an option.




There is no crisis. Drop the income cap on SS taxes. Problem solved.

There is no crisis for your retired ass. You got yours and you dont care if the system will be around for your kids or grandkids. Looks like the boomers are going to be known as the greediest generation.

I paid for decades. Now I'm getting the benefits promised me. If you see a problem with that, you'd do well as a con man.

no one is saying you should not receive benefits and assumption you keep making. However if you want more than 12.5%, we going to have the change the system. IF you want more than 12.5 and dont want to change the system, then that is all your getting



We'll all get old someday. It's either that or die. When you reach old age I hope you have your own loud mouth know nothing who hates the elderly as much as you do,


I am not worried about getting old, I am worried about my kids getting old and retiring into a worse situration than I am going to have. I know that i damn selfish of me.



People work all their lives, do their part, and have to be insulted for living long enough to actually get a return on the money they paid into Social Security. What a disgrace.

Except the folks working now are not getting a return. We can expect a negative return because the sytem is broken/



If the boomers will be known as the greediest generation your generation will be know as the cheapest.



WE will not be known as the cheapest, as we are trying to change the system to protect both the young and the old. It appears we are putting ouselves last.



Drop the income cap on SS taxes until the system is stable. Problem solved.


That is not the solution. That would only put more money in the general fund to spent by congress. Have you not learned by now, that this is not the solutions?



You don't get to welch on your responsibilities and your kids and grandkids don't get stuck with an extra couple of trillion dollar bill to cover Bush's faulty plan to fix a non-existent crisis.

Once again making flalse claims about not taking responsability. Your diatribe is getting old. We want to reform the system for the young and ungrateful seniors your like youself.
 

irwincur

Golden Member
Jul 8, 2002
1,899
0
0
BBobd, have you even read the f*cking Bush proposals?

I am sure you did not because you seem to miss almost every major point. There were three proposals, each of which addresses the problems in a different way. All based on a few requirements... Every argument you make fails every test of all of the proposals. It amounts to nothing more than the typical social-lib scare tactic crap.


In December 2001, the President's Commission to Strengthen Social Security returned its proposals to the President to reform Social Security for the future based upon personal retirement accounts.

When the Commission was appointed in May of 2001, President Bush set the following guidelines for its work:

* Modernization must not change Social Security benefits for retirees or near-retirees.

* The entire Social Security surplus must be dedicated to Social Security only.

* Social Security payroll taxes must not be increased.

* Government must not invest Social Security funds in the stock market.

* Modernization must preserve Social Security's disability and survivors components.

* Modernization must include individually controlled, voluntary personal retirement accounts, which will augment the Social Security safety net.



In addition, in its interim report issued in August, the Commissioners set their own criteria by which they would evaluate reform plans, including their own:

* Encouragement of workers' and families' efforts to build personal retirement wealth, giving citizens a legal right to a portion of their benefits.

* Equity of lifetime Social Security taxes and benefits, both between and within generations.

* Adequacy of protection against income loss due to retirement, disability, death of an earner, or unexpected longevity.

* Encouragement of increased personal and national saving.

* Rewarding individuals for actively participating in the workforce.

* Movement of the Social Security system toward a fiscally sustainable course that reduces pressure on the remainder of the federal budget and can withstand economic and demographic changes.

* Practicality and suitability to successful implementation at reasonable cost.

* Transparency: Analysis of reform plans should measure all necessary sources of tax revenue, and all benefits provided, including those from the traditional system as well as from personal accounts.




Why not read up for once, maybe you will know what you are talking about. Here are the major bi-party Congressional Documents with...

1) the reason for reform and...

2) the three potential plans.

http://www.conginst.org/socialsecurity/index.html

http://www.conginst.org/social...onproposals/index.html
 

piasabird

Lifer
Feb 6, 2002
17,168
60
91
So just let social security run out of money and claim that you care about them. Social Security will end up costing us the same anyway. As it stands if you dont pay into social security it will just fail anyway. Let the young men and women pay into social security so I can get mine. I dont care if they starve when they get older.