Baghdad neighborhood fights back

[ahurtt]

Originally posted by: Rainsford

Originally posted by: Specop 007

Originally posted by: shurato
Since we can't do the job of you protecting them you feel better than ordinary citizens are at a last ditch effort trying to do something about this? This wouldn't be happening if we didn't invade under false pretenses in the first place. Whatever makes you feel better in the morning.

Yes it makes me feel good.
People are uniting to stand up for their country, and fight off those who wish to tear it down.
We're supposed to be turning control over to them, this is another step. No, its not a planned step and its not the ideal step by any means.
But having the citizens of Iraq unite together as one is a very important step in accomplishing a united Iraq.

And its good to see Shiites and Sunnis working together. Thats a HUGE step in the right direction.

I certainly agree that it gave me a warm, fuzzy feeling, especially when the various religious people in OUR country have enough trouble getting along, to see Iraqis of different religious groups working together. It IS a good thing, and should be treated as such.

However, you keep using the word step, and I think that's wrong. It is a plus in terms of uniting Iraq, but it is not a step in the right direction. The fact that they had to do this at all is a bad sign, and even that fawningly positive news article suggested it was a rare event. Various groups of Iraqis are still shooting it out on a regular basis, and while I'm happy that it isn't always a Sunni vs Shiite battle, I'm not sure other forms of Iraqi vs Iraqi are really a huge improvement...more like a shift in the kind of violence we see, when I think a much more positive step would be to see less violence of any kind.

For all his buttholiness, Sadam was keeping this sh!t largely in check. If there was anything good that could be said about him it was that. He may have been tyranical but he kept the people too afraid to act out like this. With him gone, Iraq is just reverting back to it's natural state of Suni hates Shiite with the innocent non-haters stuck in the middle. We all know the Suni vs. Shiite issue is not a recent phenomenon but one that goes way back. But just because the non-haters are starting to band together and unite against the haters, doesn't make them our friends either. We brought this situation on them. After they eliminate the rogue elements from their own society they may turn on us as well.

 

[Future Shock]

Originally posted by: palehorse74
i believe that it is physically impossible for some people to recognize ANY of the good things that are happening over there...some part of their brains prevents the data from computing properly.

I think many people can agree that there are good steps happening. But that still doesn't mean that ANYONE forsees a strong, transparent Iraqi government taking shape quickly enough to stop a national war by each ethnic group for control of the oil wealth. Because that's what this IS, religious hatred be damned...

There is too much wealth and power being fought over by the leaders of each group to agree to peaceably divide it. The only successful Middle East democracies are, in fact, the states that have NO OIL - Israel and Lebanon. This is not a co-incidence.

So while I can agree that there are good steps (see previous post this thread), small progressive steps do not overcome age-old political realities. Too much wealth and power NOT to be fought over sitting in those wells...

Future Shock

 

[mAdMaLuDaWg]

Here is an interesting perspective for all of you. Michael Yon is an ex-special forces soldier who was embedded in Mosul and actually lived the experience and blogged about it (he's been on cnn and nbc).

He believes that Iraq is continuing to improve and we can succeed but he is now in Afghanistan and believes that we are losing there. With the way the media has been reporting, I would have thought the opposite.

Anyway, read up if you are interested.. if you think he is a right-wing hack job, he's been extremely critical of Bush, Rumsfeld, the war-planning etc. He's speaking from a truely non-biased non-political perspective and his 'dispatches' make for some excellent reading.

http://www.michaelyon-online.com/

 

[HardWarrior]

Originally posted by: mAdMaLuDaWg
He believes that Iraq is continuing to improve and we can succeed but he is now in Afghanistan and believes that we are losing there. With the way the media has been reporting, I would have thought the opposite.

Succeed in what, forcing Iraq to accept colonial rule and its attendant exploitation? In this time of instant communications and near immediate access to historical data, all too many American's STILL refuse to see their country, and the world for what they are. This constant drumbeat of accusations about "media" complicity in forcing us to the dark side of the Iraq occupation. The Bush administration, indeed the federal government as a whole, has proven that it's more than capable of generating its own propaganda. We were, after all, lied into an unprovoked attack on a poor, sanctions-weakened third-world country that had never posed a threat to the US and had no hope of defending itself.

If it's so important that some of you guys be bathed in happy-talk about a brutal, 18th century-style occupation\colonial action, then hunt it up for yourselves. God knows there's more than enough of it available. Please, leave the media to report, as best it can, what happens in the world, without having to include your personal partisan bent on things.

 

[ahurtt]

Originally posted by: mAdMaLuDaWg
Here is an interesting perspective for all of you. Michael Yon is an ex-special forces soldier who was embedded in Mosul and actually lived the experience and blogged about it (he's been on cnn and nbc).

He believes that Iraq is continuing to improve and we can succeed but he is now in Afghanistan and believes that we are losing there. With the way the media has been reporting, I would have thought the opposite.

Anyway, read up if you are interested.. if you think he is a right-wing hack job, he's been extremely critical of Bush, Rumsfeld, the war-planning etc. He's speaking from a truely non-biased non-political perspective and his 'dispatches' make for some excellent reading.

http://www.michaelyon-online.com/

I often wonder why we hear almost little or nothing on the news about what's happening in Afghanistan. Is it really going that badly? Or is it just nothing much is going on there? Everything is IRAQ IRAQ IRAQ.

 

[AndrewR]

Originally posted by: Aelius
If it makes you feel so warm and fuzzy inside then when are you shipping out to give a hand?

I just returned, and it gives me a warm fuzzy so why don't you take your sanctimonious attitude and shove it? Iraqis are standing up for each other and their nation. More are joining the police and the Army every day, despite the danger. Yes, Americans are dying almost daily, but more Iraqis are dying for their nation each and every day -- serving in their own uniform with the Iraqi flag attached. I met numerous Iraqis and was impressed with their commitment and their eagerness, as were the guys training the Iraqi Air Force at the air base to the south of where I was.

Tell us -- what's your firsthand experience?

 

[HardWarrior]

Originally posted by: AndrewR

Originally posted by: Aelius
If it makes you feel so warm and fuzzy inside then when are you shipping out to give a hand?

I just returned, and it gives me a warm fuzzy so why don't you take your sanctimonious attitude and shove it? Iraqis are standing up for each other and their nation. More are joining the police and the Army every day, despite the danger. Yes, Americans are dying almost daily, but more Iraqis are dying for their nation each and every day -- serving in their own uniform with the Iraqi flag attached. I met numerous Iraqis and was impressed with their commitment and their eagerness, as were the guys training the Iraqi Air Force at the air base to the south of where I was.

Tell us -- what's your firsthand experience?

And this ISN'T being sanctimonious, not to mention just a bit out of touch? 🙂

 

[Red Dawn]

Every time I hear about Iraqis killing each other instead of Americans I get a warm fuzzy feeling.

 

[AndrewR]

Originally posted by: HardWarrior

Originally posted by: AndrewR

Originally posted by: Aelius
If it makes you feel so warm and fuzzy inside then when are you shipping out to give a hand?

I just returned, and it gives me a warm fuzzy so why don't you take your sanctimonious attitude and shove it? Iraqis are standing up for each other and their nation. More are joining the police and the Army every day, despite the danger. Yes, Americans are dying almost daily, but more Iraqis are dying for their nation each and every day -- serving in their own uniform with the Iraqi flag attached. I met numerous Iraqis and was impressed with their commitment and their eagerness, as were the guys training the Iraqi Air Force at the air base to the south of where I was.

Tell us -- what's your firsthand experience?

And this ISN'T being sanctimonious, not to mention just a bit out of touch? 🙂

I've actually met and talked with members of the Iraqi armed forces so that gives me some basis for discussing the topic with a little bit of authority, at least more than some forum ranger who passes time serving criticism after reading news media articles.

 

[MadRat]

I bet that was when you were roaming with your mythical group of magical warriors. You probably covertly nabbed Iraqi suspects, took them off to a unmarked base, placed them in a dark cell, and interrogated them with truth serum and a shiny flood light into their eyes. And when you were all done with them your super duper powers erased all memories of the event and they woke up with nary a headache a week later.

 

[magomago]

I have a feeling tha more we fabricate this Sunni Shi'ite Split as if it is THE defining factor of Iraq, the more it will become. We all acted as if without Saddam both sides would have slaughtered eachother withot mercy...when we forget that history before that was quite different; remember even massive Jewish populations existed in Iraq~
Yet the common theme seems to be "we can't leave becaues they'll rip out eachother's throats"...and most of us beleive the fabrication.

As for Iraq...I think this is sad it has to resort to this, but security has to come from somewhere. When the government (Which is a complete joke btw) has no real security apparatus people will eventually take it into their own hands.

 

[HardWarrior]

Originally posted by: AndrewR

Originally posted by: HardWarrior

Originally posted by: AndrewR

Originally posted by: Aelius
If it makes you feel so warm and fuzzy inside then when are you shipping out to give a hand?

I just returned, and it gives me a warm fuzzy so why don't you take your sanctimonious attitude and shove it? Iraqis are standing up for each other and their nation. More are joining the police and the Army every day, despite the danger. Yes, Americans are dying almost daily, but more Iraqis are dying for their nation each and every day -- serving in their own uniform with the Iraqi flag attached. I met numerous Iraqis and was impressed with their commitment and their eagerness, as were the guys training the Iraqi Air Force at the air base to the south of where I was.

Tell us -- what's your firsthand experience?

And this ISN'T being sanctimonious, not to mention just a bit out of touch? 🙂

I've actually met and talked with members of the Iraqi armed forces so that gives me some basis for discussing the topic with a little bit of authority, at least more than some forum ranger who passes time serving criticism after reading news media articles.

None of which bestows upon you the ONLY viable opinion on our blundering attempt to colonize another country. There simply isn't anything you could have heard that can compensate for the fact that the US presence in Iraq was fostered by flat-out lies, and has been marked by a humanitarian disaster for the Iraqi people. Instead of trying to shut people up with your supposedly greater experience, why not just the discussion in the spirit of give and take? TBH, if you're expecting to be worshipped because you may have spent some time in the military, you've come to the wrong place.

 

[Specop 007]

Originally posted by: Rainsford

Originally posted by: Specop 007

Originally posted by: shurato
Since we can't do the job of you protecting them you feel better than ordinary citizens are at a last ditch effort trying to do something about this? This wouldn't be happening if we didn't invade under false pretenses in the first place. Whatever makes you feel better in the morning.

Yes it makes me feel good.
People are uniting to stand up for their country, and fight off those who wish to tear it down.
We're supposed to be turning control over to them, this is another step. No, its not a planned step and its not the ideal step by any means.
But having the citizens of Iraq unite together as one is a very important step in accomplishing a united Iraq.

And its good to see Shiites and Sunnis working together. Thats a HUGE step in the right direction.

I certainly agree that it gave me a warm, fuzzy feeling, especially when the various religious people in OUR country have enough trouble getting along, to see Iraqis of different religious groups working together. It IS a good thing, and should be treated as such.

However, you keep using the word step, and I think that's wrong. It is a plus in terms of uniting Iraq, but it is not a step in the right direction. The fact that they had to do this at all is a bad sign, and even that fawningly positive news article suggested it was a rare event. Various groups of Iraqis are still shooting it out on a regular basis, and while I'm happy that it isn't always a Sunni vs Shiite battle, I'm not sure other forms of Iraqi vs Iraqi are really a huge improvement...more like a shift in the kind of violence we see, when I think a much more positive step would be to see less violence of any kind.

The American military is much like your local police force. They just cant be evrywhere every time when bad things are about to happen.
We arent so different from them. Many states have passed CCW and Castle Doctrine laws enabling you to defend your life and the lives of those around you, including the use of deadly force to do so.
Its much the same way there. The local population has "issed CCW's and Castle Doctrines", effectively saying "We will use deadly force to defned our lives".

It also shows the local populations are ready for peace and stability. And thats an important first step in nation building, as it sends a very clear message to the insurgents.