Bad parenting

[bamacre]

I'd like to forget about healthcare, foreign policy, wiretapping, etc., for a minute and discuss something we can't blame on the government.

Bad parenting. Everyone has the right to have kids, and while some do a good job, some do a decent job, others just flat out suck. Half the problem with education in this country is the fault of the students' parents. We have children on the McDonald's diet. Underage pregnancies, hell we have 14 year-olds participating in orgies, getting more sex that all of atot combined. Although the problems seem not to end, I guess we can end with sex here, because it brings me to a point.

Recent rulings have allowed children to get surgical procedures, and other forms of healthcare, without the permission of, and even knowledge of, their parents. We have somehow gone from not allowing a child to see a Rated-R movie without being accompanied by an adult, to giving little 14 year-old Suzie an abortion without her parents even knowing. And it's not the fault of anyone but bad parents.

Now, I am not asking if you agree, or disagree, with these kinds of policies, I don't care. The problem I see is that it seems that for a kid who has bad parents, the government would like to just take over their position. And in a lot of situations, it doesn't seem like such a horrible thing. But since the bad-parenting problem just gets worse and worse every year, where does this policy of governmental parenting end? I predict that more of these policies will overreach, taking over some of the duties of even good parents. We've already seen it. If you have a kid in school, he's going to be learning about sex, and years ago, that was the parents' job. What happened? Some parents didn't do their job correctly, or not at all. The result is all kids now learn about sex in school, even those with proper parents. Now, that is not such a horrible thing I guess, but it is an example of the government taking over part of a parents' job, without regard of the parents' capabilities.

When the problem of parenting gets worse, the government is surely going to take an even more active role in childrens' lives. But where does it end? Does it end? How much can we cram into our schools' curriculum? Math. Science. Don't ****** with the fat kid. History. Don't ****** with the non-white kid. Spelling. English. Don't ****** with the gay kid. Social studies. Sex Ed. Hygiene. Why Timmy has two moms. How to drive a car. What classes will there be in 10 or 20 years? What policies will effect all children outside of the schools?

I fear one day while we will retain the right to have kids, we'll give up the right to parent them. And while government can teach a kid math, and to not ****** with the fat kid, there is one thing the government can not do. And that is love.

 

[Genx87]

The govt has been subverting the role of parents for decades. This policy has lead to higher instances of single parent housholds that can not make it on their own which requires govt help which ends up subverting the parents and the kids turn out to be assclowns and the cycle contiunues.

It is hard to tell a parent they have rights to discipline their kids but cant do it verbally, physically, or emotionally without breaking the law and expect the people to actually discipline their kids. You cant expect parents to feel a part of their childs life decisions when the govt intervenes and tells you that you have no right to help make life decisions with your own kid.

The govts invasion of the private life of a family is a path that will end with disaster imo. The govt has shown time and time again it lacks the understanding, the care, or the ability to effectively take care of large portions of our society. What happens in 100 years when 90% of kids are born out of wedlock, fail to graduate from our pathetic public schools, and expect the govt to wipe their ass?

 

[Todd33]

What happens in 100 years when 90% of kids are born out of wedlock, fail to graduate from our pathetic public schools, and expect the govt to wipe their ass?

How's life chicken little? I thought the liberals were "doom and gloom"? IMO things do not change that much, it's just more "in my day.." and bad memories. People always think the current generation is somehow more degenerate and out of control. For everything you can name worse from generation to generation you can name at least one thing that is much better. Times change, but it's not always for the worse - it's just change.

 

[RightIsWrong]

Originally posted by: Todd33

What happens in 100 years when 90% of kids are born out of wedlock, fail to graduate from our pathetic public schools, and expect the govt to wipe their ass?

How's life chicken little? I thought the liberals were "doom and gloom"? IMO things do not change that much, it's just more "in my day.." and bad memories. People always think the current generation is somehow more degenerate and out of control. For everything you can name worse from generation to generation you can name at least one thing that is much better. Times change, but it's not always for the worse - it's just change.

/thread

 

[bamacre]

Originally posted by: Todd33

What happens in 100 years when 90% of kids are born out of wedlock, fail to graduate from our pathetic public schools, and expect the govt to wipe their ass?

How's life chicken little? I thought the liberals were "doom and gloom"?

Why did you feel the need to turn this into a Liberal/Conservative thing? I don't think it is for the most part, and your comments are exactly the type I was trying to avoid, while Genx87 was right on par.

IMO things do not change that much, it's just more "in my day.." and bad memories. People always think the current generation is somehow more degenerate and out of control. For everything you can name worse from generation to generation you can name at least one thing that is much better. Times change, but it's not always for the worse - it's just change.

How about giving us some examples? I can agree with you to a point here. It seems that some kids are actually turning out great, while others are not.

Ignoring those that are not because there are those that are, is not helping.

 

[bamacre]

We are, IIRC, graduating more virgins than ever, but then we are also turning out little sex fiends, resulting in futher spread of std's and underage preggo's. But that's not what this is really about, just an example of the whole picture. Some kids get to high school barely literate.

Is there another solution to bad parenting, other than governmental parenting?

 

[sao123]

Originally posted by: bamacre
We are, IIRC, graduating more virgins than ever, but then we are also turning out little sex fiends, resulting in futher spread of std's and underage preggo's. But that's not what this is really about, just an example of the whole picture. Some kids get to high school barely literate.

Is there another solution to bad parenting, other than governmental parenting?

Only qualified licenced professionals may procreate. Everyone else must be sterilized before sexual contact.

 

[rudder]

The solution is to have all the children who don't get discpline or who aren't taught respect get put into their own classroom. They can then do whatever the hell they want. Give them an A for showing up and keep them moving through the system. That way those kids won't disrupt my childrens classrooms every day.

 

[Todd33]

Originally posted by: bamacre
Why did you feel the need to turn this into a Liberal/Conservative thing? I don't think it is for the most part, and your comments are exactly the type I was trying to avoid, while Genx87 was right on par..

"Genx87 was right on par" Why because he tells you what you want to hear? Go to PMs then, this is a forum you will get other points of view whether you like it or not. Not a liberal/conservative thing? As soon as you made idiotic comments about abortion that read like a fundie Bible thumper pamphlet it was. Next time you want a serious discussion don't pepper it with your blatant bias, not that this topic hasn't been beaten to death already.

 

[ntdz]

Bad Parenting is an enormous problem...without a solution.

 

[daniel1113]

It trickles down to personal responsibility, which seems to be non-existent in this country. If a child has problems, it's always someone elses fault in the eyes of these parents.

 

[LumbergTech]

your obvious bias seeps through your attempt to try to hide it..

 

[bamacre]

Originally posted by: LumbergTech
your obvious bias seeps through your attempt to try to hide it..

Explain.

 

[sao123]

Originally posted by: Todd33

What happens in 100 years when 90% of kids are born out of wedlock, fail to graduate from our pathetic public schools, and expect the govt to wipe their ass?

How's life chicken little? I thought the liberals were "doom and gloom"? IMO things do not change that much, it's just more "in my day.." and bad memories. People always think the current generation is somehow more degenerate and out of control. For everything you can name worse from generation to generation you can name at least one thing that is much better. Times change, but it's not always for the worse - it's just change.

IMO... 2steps forward and 2 steps back does not equal progress. Net gain = 0.
Progress = one thing that is much better, without gaining one thing that is worse.

 

[Jaskalas]

It feels like degeneration because society is always changing. While the trend since this Country?s birth has been to open up and always accept our parent?s wrongs as rights. Try being an atheist in the 18th century, a black in the 19th century, a gay in the 20th century, etc. All the so called values or morals are being exchanged with self proclaimed rights to do what past generations considered wrong.

A good point is the continued decline in parenting. As if public education could ever be the end all be all of knowledge in this world. What?s worse is that parenting decline is likely directly related to the fact that both parents have to work full time and ignore their children unless one of them has a damn good job.

Ask our parents, or our grandparents if they had to BOTH work FULL time just to put food on the table. I know a couple in their forties across the street who are in a lot of trouble to pay the bills simply because the wife only works part time. I believe personal income has declined GREATLY in the face in inflation, if the amount of work required of parents is any indication.

This undue stress and time requirement means that government is the only education for a majority of kids today, and that just doesn?t cut it. That is not what it is designed to do. How can you boost kids? intelligence when you?re focused on the basics the parents never gave them? You either slow down the whole class, or leave the disadvantaged behind. Regardless of the choice made, the quality of the education is less from it.

Then there are examples of how we?re more open about sex. I have to say that feels like it?s partly a backlash against unjust laws and parenting that wants to hide a basic part of our existence from our kids. Two wrongs do not create a right, but they cannot honestly expect us not to rebel in the face of oppression. One extreme will merely create its own polar opposite, which I believe is the "sex crazed fiends" one posted named.

Well, I?ve shared my take on the subject of degeneration of society. You want to start fixing things, then increase wages and put the mother back in the house so that kids aren?t raising themselves.

 

[KB]

I think it is a huge problem, and is a big reason why I don't want kids. Not because my kids will be bad, but because others kids will have a bad influence. I completely blame the situation in which both parents work. This is usually done in order to "keep up with the jones's". Everyone who had a stay at home mother (that I know) has been a considerate, well-adjusted kid that turned into a responsible adult. I cannot say the same for the other group. Just my opinion...

 

[shrumpage]

There will always be bad kids, and there will always be bad parents. The least the government can do is not to actively circumvent parental authority - it will help good parents continue to be good parents.

 

[Moonbeam]

Humanity is asleep living in an upside down world. We hate ourselves and destroy our children because their love prompts them to become just like us. When we see ourselves in them we kill them to save them from our fate.

But because our self hate is the result of such tremendous emotional pain we are in a state of protective custody as false egos that deny the existance of our real self. We think we would die if we relived the pain we have been through and fortunately that is oh so true. We really would die if we remembered. What we don't know and don't want to believe, because we feel we don't deserve it, is that if we die we will resurect in heaven. Psychic death is not the same as physical death but pain precludes faith.

So we destroy our kids because we are ignorant and afraid and want to stay that way. I see no hope at all for man because of these facts. Humanity looks like it's lost, but maybe you could awaken. One thing I think is sure. Only the awake would have any idea at all as to what to do.

Seventy-three men sailed up
From the San Francisco Bay,
Rolled off of their ship
And here's what they had to say.
"We're callin' everyone to ride along
To another shore,
We can laugh our lives away
and be free once more."
But no one heard them callin',
No one came at all,
'Cause they were too busy watchin'
Those old raindrops fall.
As a storm was blowin'
Out on the peaceful sea,
Seventy-three men sailed off
To history.
Ride, captain ride
Upon your mystery ship,
Be amazed at the friends
You have here on your trip.
Ride captain ride
Upon your mystery ship,
On your way to a world
That others might have missed.
(Instrumental)
Seventy-three men sailed up
From the San Francisco Bay,
Got off their ship
And here's what they had to say.
"We're callin' everyone to ride along
To another shore,
We can laugh our lives away
And be free once more."
Ride, captain ride
Upon your mystery ship,
Be amazed at the friends
You have here on your trip.
Ride, captain ride
Upon your mystery ship,
On your way to a world
That others might have missed.
Ride, captain ride
Upon your mystery ship,
Be amazed at the friends
You have here on your trip.

 

[bamacre]

I love that song

 

[LumbergTech]

Originally posted by: bamacre

Originally posted by: LumbergTech
your obvious bias seeps through your attempt to try to hide it..

Explain.

you make an effort to say you dont care about things and it makes it obvious that you do..the angle from which you asks these questions and how you will respond to peoples responses is pretty obvious..i just wonder what you are trying to get someone to say

as far as my opinion..i can understand some of your concerns, but i dont really agree with the tone that you appear to be taking which seems to devalue education about diversity and the idea that we should treat people with respect...

if you really want to know why i think that parents are losing their right to parent, its because they are giving up their time and freedom to corporate interests....the pro-business anti-human attitude of the current powers that be is making it hard for individuals to raise their children and still support themselves..

to clarify..im not necessarily agaisnt a somewhat pro-business stance..I just think that companies should have one heck of a lot more respect for the emotional well being of their employees and families..everyone is responsible for themself, but when a business' interests conflicts with an individuals the individuals always seem to take the boot..you hear about theses stupid lawsuit cases, but in all honesty they are mostly blown out of proportion by the media and then the anti-lawsuit crew likes to pretend like its the norm when in reality the workers are getting screwed 100 times more than the businesses (on a general basis)

 

[Rainsford]

Originally posted by: Genx87
The govt has been subverting the role of parents for decades. This policy has lead to higher instances of single parent housholds that can not make it on their own which requires govt help which ends up subverting the parents and the kids turn out to be assclowns and the cycle contiunues.

It is hard to tell a parent they have rights to discipline their kids but cant do it verbally, physically, or emotionally without breaking the law and expect the people to actually discipline their kids. You cant expect parents to feel a part of their childs life decisions when the govt intervenes and tells you that you have no right to help make life decisions with your own kid.

The govts invasion of the private life of a family is a path that will end with disaster imo. The govt has shown time and time again it lacks the understanding, the care, or the ability to effectively take care of large portions of our society. What happens in 100 years when 90% of kids are born out of wedlock, fail to graduate from our pathetic public schools, and expect the govt to wipe their ass?

Actually, I think the OP had it right the first time. The government isn't "subverting" anything, the government is doing what it is doing largely because the parents AREN'T. Parents today are terrible, for the most part, and they are only getting worse. It started with the baby boomers, totally obsessed with themselves (a logical result of being hippies when they were younger, if you think about it), and it just keeps going.

People whine and complain about what's going on with social services and the like, and I agree that it's a problem, but it came about because parents weren't doing what they were supposed to be doing. Instead of making sure the kid stayed out of trouble with some well times discipline (whatever the method), some parents truly abuse their kids and abuse the power they have as parents. What do we as a society do about that...nothing? Or schools that are now having discipline problems. Some people think we just need to bring back hitting kids at school, but I think the real problem is that there is no discipline of any kind at home. It's not well behaved kids going to school and just going crazy, it's kids who AREN'T well behaved behaving "normally" (for them) at school, it's just like they act at home.

If parents don't like the "government invasion", they should do their damn jobs. If you can't raise a kid, don't have one. If you DO have one, neither the government nor anyone else should have to raise that kid for you. But that's really what this is, it's not government oppression, it's necessity. The parents aren't raising the kids, so somebody has to. The problem of course is that no government program can replace good parents, but when there are no good parents to be found, it's better than nothing.

 

[Stunt]

I agree with the key points of your views bamacre. Today's youth are becoming accepting of their dependence on the state and have embraced a culture of entitlement. No longer do we see a hardworking society, with pride in their work; instead we see people striking for unreasonable demands and those who believe just because they were born in the US, they should be the richest people in the world.

While most of the parenting blame should fall in the laps of the parents themselves, an important point of concern are the people who making an effort in bettering themselves. I'm not talking about the people who punch in and punch out doing as little as possible not to get fired...I'm talking the people who have pride in their work and do everything in their power to succeed.

These people are definately not the norm, but have a difficult time paying attention to their children, as they are occupied with work and providing for their family. The parenting role is then carried out by people at school and at daycares; both teachers and peers. This is where most danger comes into the parenting equation; all it takes is one bad apple of many to really traumatize a kid and turn him/her into a rebellious force.

It isn't as easy to merely blame parents when many others take a parenting and role model form this day in age.

 

[Isla]

I have wonderful parents but I did some really stupid things as a teen. Looking back, I realize I must have had some sort of undiagnosed chemical/hormonal imbalance, but my parents really did try very hard to help me. I also endured horrible teasing because I was cross eyed for many years. My 'acting out' was the culmination of my experience in society, but my surivival and eventual blossoming had a lot to do with my good parents.

I think that there are really 3 factors... nature (your genetic disposition), nurture (your home environment) and your social experiences that ultimately shape you. The possible experiences are infinite... as individual as each of us. Because of that, I do NOT think that the government should be 'parent' to anybody. The government plays a role under 'social experiences' and that is enough.

 

[Cerb]

Originally posted by: Genx87
The govt has been subverting the role of parents for decades. This policy has lead to higher instances of single parent housholds that can not make it on their own which requires govt help which ends up subverting the parents and the kids turn out to be assclowns and the cycle contiunues.

It is hard to tell a parent they have rights to discipline their kids but cant do it verbally, physically, or emotionally without breaking the law and expect the people to actually discipline their kids. You cant expect parents to feel a part of their childs life decisions when the govt intervenes and tells you that you have no right to help make life decisions with your own kid.

The govts invasion of the private life of a family is a path that will end with disaster imo. The govt has shown time and time again it lacks the understanding, the care, or the ability to effectively take care of large portions of our society. What happens in 100 years when 90% of kids are born out of wedlock, fail to graduate from our pathetic public schools, and expect the govt to wipe their ass?

Only 100 years? I must be a pessimist...

In any case, I'm thinking a semi-violent revolution/reformation, followed by a social renaissance. I think we're about due.

 

[Future Shock]

Originally posted by: Stunt
I agree with the key points of your views bamacre. Today's youth are becoming accepting of their dependence on the state and have embraced a culture of entitlement. No longer do we see a hardworking society, with pride in their work; instead we see people striking for unreasonable demands and those who believe just because they were born in the US, they should be the richest people in the world.

While most of the parenting blame should fall in the laps of the parents themselves, an important point of concern are the people who making an effort in bettering themselves. I'm not talking about the people who punch in and punch out doing as little as possible not to get fired...I'm talking the people who have pride in their work and do everything in their power to succeed.

These people are definately not the norm, but have a difficult time paying attention to their children, as they are occupied with work and providing for their family. The parenting role is then carried out by people at school and at daycares; both teachers and peers. This is where most danger comes into the parenting equation; all it takes is one bad apple of many to really traumatize a kid and turn him/her into a rebellious force.

It isn't as easy to merely blame parents when many others take a parenting and role model form this day in age.

Stunt,
The statistics indicate that as a whole, Americans are the hardest working, most productive people on earth. That just doesn't square with your hypothesis about being overly dependant upon government services. Rather, it backs Rainsford's position that the problem is that we are working TOO hard - that stay at home mothers are considered quaint (and un-economically sound), and that there is no one at home raising the children the same way a concerned parent would. And that government has BEEN FORCED to step into the void...

I know my mother didn't work for the first 7-8 years of my life...and then when both kids were in school, she went back to work but got home quickly after we came home from school (part time). How many children have that kind of upbringing these days? Very few and far between...Later on, when my father's job couldn't keep pace with inflation, mom finally went full-time...but by then we kids were older and pretty well formed...
Today's families do not seem to have the luxury of part-time or no employment for Mom...instead she has become an auxillary breadwinner so that we can maintain a rise in standard of living as we have come to expect...but frankly isn't sustainable without a penalty in the family fabric.

I find it hard to criticize the government - they are only trying to patch up holes in a social fabric brought on by our relelentless drive to live a "better life" for ourselves materiely - while ingoring our most vital assets.

Future Shock