Backlash grows in US over foreign worker visas

[realibrad]

I've tried to make it clear I am against the visa process, not foreigners in general. It is one thing to fight when you know you may lose you job, it is another when you know you may lose your job, be deported and may never get another opportunity. Same reason American and green card holding engineers generally don't put up with being screwed over for long, but H1Bs will.

lets hold the idea that these people truly hold that thought to be true, because its logical to think so.

All workers have a fear of losing their job, its just a difference in the amount of fear. If a company is rational and self interested then it should understand this, and attempt to mitigate those fears for self preservation. My point is not that those workers don't have that fear so we should let unlimited in. My point is that the focus should be on the company to fix that issue, and I dont think that issue is solved by picking an American worker over a foreign one.

What if the worker comes from a country that has a social safety net? I think your assumption is that these people only come from poor countries

 

[HumblePie]

OMG you are totally right. I mean, these companies whip their workers, rape them, cull their population, take away all freedoms so its completely the same.

How did I ever think that the horrors of slavery were any different than how American companies treat foreign workers...

It's called an analogy dumbass. Many companies treat H1B1's, as well as illegal immigrant workers, as close to slave labor as they can get away with. Which means paying them as little as possible, threatening them if they don't comply, and working them for extended hours.

The "whip" they use may not be inflicting physical trauma, but it can certainly inflict emotion/mental trauma and stress. The fear of deportation, or being arrested, or even being barred from working anywhere due to influences out of their control is what is akin in the modern day to the old "whip" from previous slave days.

The difference really is that modern American "slave" labor isn't hunted down if they "run away" but that is because the type of yoke is far different that is imposed today than of years gone by.


Just because the "chains" that bind the workers today are different, doesn't make it not slave labor.

 

[realibrad]

It's called an analogy dumbass. Many companies treat H1B1's, as well as illegal immigrant workers, as close to slave labor as they can get away with. Which means paying them as little as possible, threatening them if they don't comply, and working them for extended hours.

The "whip" they use may not be inflicting physical trauma, but it can certainly inflict emotion/mental trauma and stress. The fear of deportation, or being arrested, or even being barred from working anywhere due to influences out of their control is what is akin in the modern day to the old "whip" from previous slave days.

The difference really is that modern American "slave" labor isn't hunted down if they "run away" but that is because the type of yoke is far different that is imposed today than of years gone by.

The gap between slavery and some of the people you are referring to are huge.

Here is another analogy. A supernova is like a car, because they can both move things.

But, keep the slavery analogy because it in no way disparages the things that actual salves went through.

See that, that was sarcasm.

 

[Zorba]

So what you've got is a specious example in your company and an example from 27 years ago, neither of which is tied to H1Bs. Got it.

This is why I hate debating any serious subject on these forums. I said H1Bs in general feel like they can't take risks speaking up. Then I made the comment that speaking up is important. Then you say no aerospace accident has ever happened due to people not speaking up. I give an example and you say it wasn't cause be an H1B, which I never said it was.

There are a lot of engineers that will not take the risk of speaking up, but due to the nature of an H1B, visa holders are even more incentivized to not speak up and in my experience try to not rock the boat until they get a green card.

Here is another example: AA Flight 191 happened because the airline engineers would not stand up to maintenance management and refuse to sign off a poor procedure for engine/pylon removal. There are a lot more, but I don't feel like writing out aviation history for you, and a lot of the more everyday examples aren't publicly known. But there is a reason why the FAA requires every person involved in aircraft maintenance at an airline take 3 human factors classes, and why the FAA requires many avenues for reporting issues internally and to the FAA.

 

[Zorba]

I'm not going to research 5-year studies so that I can prove the obvious to you. There is plenty of data out there showing that H1Bs are paid comparably to US counterparts - try the GAO or Magnus Lofstrom for starters. There's also the fact that an H1B by law requires an employer to pay H-1B visa holders the higher of the prevailing or actual wage paid to similarly employed U.S. workers in the same area, something the DoL tracks. And then add the actual cost of sponsorship to that.

If it truly cost more, no company would do it. It isn't rocket science, why would a company increase their costs for no reason?

 

[HumblePie]

The gap between slavery and some of the people you are referring to are huge.

Here is another analogy. A supernova is like a car, because they can both move things.

But, keep the slavery analogy because it in no way disparages the things that actual salves went through.

See that, that was sarcasm.

Slavery by definition is the practice of treating people more like property than free will people and forcing them to work against their will.

Many of the grunts that come over here come so willingly not knowing what they are getting into sometimes. They are then forced to work in harsh conditions, harsh hours, and very little pay sometimes for the work done. They are generally prevented from leaving their current condition because of the threats imposed by those making them work. As I said, the chains are different, but the outcome is basically the same.

Just because you want to narrowly define slavery as only what slavery of the past was is your prerogative.

But the slavery conditions are not the norm either. There is some, but much is just over exploitation.

 

[Zorba]

lets hold the idea that these people truly hold that thought to be true, because its logical to think so.

All workers have a fear of losing their job, its just a difference in the amount of fear. If a company is rational and self interested then it should understand this, and attempt to mitigate those fears for self preservation. My point is not that those workers don't have that fear so we should let unlimited in. My point is that the focus should be on the company to fix that issue, and I dont think that issue is solved by picking an American worker over a foreign one.

What if the worker comes from a country that has a social safety net? I think your assumption is that these people only come from poor countries

I agree with you in an ideal world companies would have good cultures. I've worked for 3 fortune 25 companies and 1 small company, none of them had such cultures. And most of the time the people you were fighting with were your direct management, their management or very high management in a different department. Any time you are arguing with a VP, I don't care what company it is at, you risk getting canned.

If I get canned I can get another job within a few weeks, if someone here on a visa gets canned they may be deported and never given the opportunity to come back.

I do generally think of H1Bs being from a poor country, since that is my experience, but I also assume they all want to be in the US and would not like to be deported, even if they were from Germany or Japan originally.

 

[realibrad]

Slavery by definition is the practice of treating people more like property than free will people and forcing them to work against their will.

Many of the grunts that come over here come so willingly not knowing what they are getting into sometimes. They are then forced to work in harsh conditions, harsh hours, and very little pay sometimes for the work done. They are generally prevented from leaving their current condition because of the threats imposed by those making them work. As I said, the chains are different, but the outcome is basically the same.

Just because you want to narrowly define slavery as only what slavery of the past was is your prerogative.

But the slavery conditions are not the norm either. There is some, but much is just over exploitation.

The world needs less people that think like you.

The threats under slavery were physical torture and death. The "threats" under the worker program is, if you dont do what we say, you have to go back to the life you lived before.

Again, all you are doing is belittling what people went through under slavery.

 

[realibrad]

I agree with you in an ideal world companies would have good cultures. I've worked for 3 fortune 25 companies and 1 small company, none of them had such cultures. And most of the time the people you were fighting with were your direct management, their management or very high management in a different department. Any time you are arguing with a VP, I don't care what company it is at, you risk getting canned.

If I get canned I can get another job within a few weeks, if someone here on a visa gets canned they may be deported and never given the opportunity to come back.

I do generally think of H1Bs being from a poor country, since that is my experience, but I also assume they all want to be in the US and would not like to be deported, even if they were from Germany or Japan originally.

My point was about policy. If you believe there is a need for intervention to stop H1B because of the harm it can bring to a company then I disagree. I disagree, because I feel like the time/money spent on dealing with H1B would bring a greater return if directed toward company culture.

It just seems far less expensive, and brings about a greater return.

 

[Mani]

If it truly cost more, no company would do it. It isn't rocket science, why would a company increase their costs for no reason?

The above is exemplary of the simple thinking on this subject prevalent here. Maybe, just maybe, those H1B candidates are *gasp* better than the US nationals that are applying. Maybe, just maybe, there are cases in which companies are hiring for a skillset that is scarce or unavailable among the US population. I know these might sound farfetched to you, but those would all be reasons why companies are paying H1Bs at or higher than the prevailing rate among US nationals.

 

[Mani]

This is why I hate debating any serious subject on these forums. I said H1Bs in general feel like they can't take risks speaking up. Then I made the comment that speaking up is important. Then you say no aerospace accident has ever happened due to people not speaking up. I give an example and you say it wasn't cause be an H1B, which I never said it was.

There are a lot of engineers that will not take the risk of speaking up, but due to the nature of an H1B, visa holders are even more incentivized to not speak up and in my experience try to not rock the boat until they get a green card.

Here is another example: AA Flight 191 happened because the airline engineers would not stand up to maintenance management and refuse to sign off a poor procedure for engine/pylon removal. There are a lot more, but I don't feel like writing out aviation history for you, and a lot of the more everyday examples aren't publicly known. But there is a reason why the FAA requires every person involved in aircraft maintenance at an airline take 3 human factors classes, and why the FAA requires many avenues for reporting issues internally and to the FAA.

The point is that there are few if any incidents directly related to "not speaking up", as even the incidents you cite have multiple causes well beyond this. None can be traced back to an H1B not doing so. Your overarching point about how H1Bs being dangerous for not speaking up simply holds little water.

 

[AyashiKaibutsu]

The world needs less people that think like you.

The threats under slavery were physical torture and death. The "threats" under the worker program is, if you dont do what we say, you have to go back to the life you lived before.

Again, all you are doing is belittling what people went through under slavery.

The world needs less people who can't see the forest for the tress as well. There's more than one form of slavery besides what has occurred in early-mid America. He's done well enough to delineate it; you're just being obstinate.

 

[michal1980]

The above is exemplary of the simple thinking on this subject prevalent here. Maybe, just maybe, those H1B candidates are *gasp* better than the US nationals that are applying. Maybe, just maybe, there are cases in which companies are hiring for a skillset that is scarce or unavailable among the US population. I know these might sound farfetched to you, but those would all be reasons why companies are paying H1Bs at or higher than the prevailing rate among US nationals.

LOL no H1B candidates are just cheaper.


Please show me this wage inflation that is occurring to support a shortage of American workers.

Furthermore, ~50% of H1b are going to consulting firms : http://www.npr.org/blogs/alltechcon...H1-B-Visa-Workers-Its-Not-Who-You-Might-Think

which proves even more theres no shortage of workers, theres just a shortage of short term slave labor.

And more articles on H1B.

http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2013/02/silicon-valley-h1b-visas-hurt-tech-workers

 

[Ns1]

If it truly cost more, no company would do it. It isn't rocket science, why would a company increase their costs for no reason?

I can only speak for the company I work for, but they are paid the same. We want them (the foreign workers) because of their skillset, not because we want to treat them as slave labor.

YMMV.

 

[Mani]

LOL no H1B candidates are just cheaper.


Please show me this wage inflation that is occurring to support a shortage of American workers.

Furthermore, ~50% of H1b are going to consulting firms : http://www.npr.org/blogs/alltechcon...H1-B-Visa-Workers-Its-Not-Who-You-Might-Think

which proves even more theres no shortage of workers, theres just a shortage of short term slave labor.

And more articles on H1B.

http://www.motherjones.com/politics/2013/02/silicon-valley-h1b-visas-hurt-tech-workers

Did you just ignore what I just cited above? Look up the actual salaries of H1B workers - there are plenty of places where you can find that info - and get back to me me on whether they are slave wages. Hell, just try to prove that they are lower at all, net of the costs of sponsorship.

 

[Anubis]

Are you done with your tantrum? Just to give you some context, I hire and fire people at a Fortune 20 company. And I manage people that hire and fire people, including in IT. I've seen the absolute gamut. And let me tell you, the reason why companies keep pursuing H1Bs is because it makes business sense. Not just because they are cheaper, but because they are lower risk. If you hire one, you are usually not having to fire him 3 months later. You usually aren't going to deal with lazy asses. Or a sexual harrassment lawsuit. Or "sick leave" that happens to coincide with every other weekend. Or shitty attitudes. The list goes on. There are obviously exceptions, but people that hire H1Bs are not idiots. There are reasons in line with those of the business that drive those decisions. If you honestly believe that companies hire H1Bs purely because they are cheap or that they just love screwing over the American worker, you flat out need to get your head examined.

The state of India has to do with a litany of historical and geopolitical factors many of which date back over a century, and almost nothing to do with the current work ethic and intellect of their workforce. But hey, why put an ounce of thought or research into things before posting? This is ATPN after all.

so basically you hire them because they act like slaves and never take time off

got it

 

[Mani]

I can only speak for the company I work for, but they are paid the same. We want them (the foreign workers) because of their skillset, not because we want to treat them as slave labor.

YMMV.

Impossible. The experts on labor statistics on ATOT have established otherwise.

 

[Mani]

so basically you hire them because they act like slaves and never take time off

got it

Yes, perfect interpretation of what I said

 

[Londo_Jowo]

so basically you hire them because they act like slaves and never take time off

got it

How is this any different than companies that use contract help? Contractors don't get vacations or other benefits that company employees have.

 

[heymrdj]

Yes, perfect interpretation of what I said

I think you keep missing the point. There's no way that there is not an American with the skillset. You're just unwilling to pay an American wage for that skill set. American wage does not necessarily equal the wage in the books, especially due to our rising costs of education and certification. If the prevailing wage is allowed to be eroded by H1B's bringing it down, corporations win. I can continue to step wages down if a job is worth 80-100K a year, and I bring in H1B's for 80K. Then the job gets reclassified as 60-80, I start paying 60, and so on and so on. The wages need to be left set strictly on a non-global scale. If Americans feels that a job is worth 100K that's where the job will stay, that way Americans can competitively ask for that wage. The people that come in an say I'll do it for 80 is exactly how wages continue to get depressed and corporations just smile a little more inside.

 

[Ns1]

I think you keep missing the point. There's no way that there is not an American with the skillset.

dude that's so not true. Take the following example

Company A hires Consulting Firm Z (offshore firm) to perform some services

After the project is finished...

Company B learns that Consulting Firm Z is good at these services and hires them as well

After the project is finished...

Company C learns that Consulting Firm Z is good at these services and hires them as well.

NOW, if you're a company looking for these services, it's clear that the offshore firm is going to be more EXPERIENCED than the Americans because they've done the project multiple times.

 

[heymrdj]

dude that's so not true. Take the following example

Company A hires Consulting Firm Z (offshore firm) to perform some services

After the project is finished...

Company B learns that Consulting Firm Z is good at these services and hires them as well

After the project is finished...

Company C learns that Consulting Firm Z is good at these services and hires them as well.

NOW, if you're a company looking for these services, it's clear that the offshore firm is going to be more EXPERIENCED than the Americans because they've done the project multiple times. NOT only that, you ask a consulting firm for 30 bodies you're going to get 30 bodies, and if one of them sucks you swap them out for another body that doesn't suck.

Try doing that with onshore staff in a timely manner.

That comes to a whole separate issue of American corporations not having a responsibility towards it's people it serves. Your asking for someone to get experience without being able to get experience basically. How are the American firms going to get good if they don't work with American people. That just comes back to being cheaper to train the offshore staff cheaper.

On that point, however, I have't been able to work with what offshore consulting staff I have had to work with. They don't think outside of the box. They don't come up with creative ideas that give customers all the points on their checkboxes within budget. They have always given me the basic "well your customer needs a higher budget". If I wanted an answer like that, I could go read the damned VMware pamphlet myself.

 

[Ns1]

On that point, however, I have't been able to work with what offshore consulting staff I have had to work with. They don't think outside of the box. They don't come up with creative ideas that give customers all the points on their checkboxes within budget. They have always given me the basic "well your customer needs a higher budget". If I wanted an answer like that, I could go read the damned VMware pamphlet myself.

not disagreeing with you, but that can be taught/trained - I'm in that exact situation right now (it's why I'm in Mumbai as I type this). My task is to teach these guys to think outside of the box and problem solve and to understand that running of a script is not appropriate all the time. But make no doubt - sometimes you gotta run off a script, otherwise you can't get 30 people to do things consistently.

also: not all consulting firms are created equally. I love my offshore staff

 

[realibrad]

I think you keep missing the point. There's no way that there is not an American with the skillset. You're just unwilling to pay an American wage for that skill set. American wage does not necessarily equal the wage in the books, especially due to our rising costs of education and certification. If the prevailing wage is allowed to be eroded by H1B's bringing it down, corporations win. I can continue to step wages down if a job is worth 80-100K a year, and I bring in H1B's for 80K. Then the job gets reclassified as 60-80, I start paying 60, and so on and so on. The wages need to be left set strictly on a non-global scale. If Americans feels that a job is worth 100K that's where the job will stay, that way Americans can competitively ask for that wage. The people that come in an say I'll do it for 80 is exactly how wages continue to get depressed and corporations just smile a little more inside.

And American firms can magically compete with foreign products/services at higher prices. You want firms to pay some people more, which inflates the prices of their goods, which in turn means fewer if anyone will buy those products. That will shrink or kill the company, and now you have lost all jobs.

In the long run, you hurt far more people than you help by paying someone an American wage.

Solution, American worker becomes more productive to command the higher wage, or you raise the standards of the person who is competing so they command higher wages.

 

[Mani]

I think you keep missing the point. There's no way that there is not an American with the skillset. You're just unwilling to pay an American wage for that skill set. American wage does not necessarily equal the wage in the books, especially due to our rising costs of education and certification. If the prevailing wage is allowed to be eroded by H1B's bringing it down, corporations win. I can continue to step wages down if a job is worth 80-100K a year, and I bring in H1B's for 80K. Then the job gets reclassified as 60-80, I start paying 60, and so on and so on. The wages need to be left set strictly on a non-global scale. If Americans feels that a job is worth 100K that's where the job will stay, that way Americans can competitively ask for that wage. The people that come in an say I'll do it for 80 is exactly how wages continue to get depressed and corporations just smile a little more inside.

I wonder how many folks claiming that there are plenty of qualified Americans available have ever been hiring managers for such positions. In the real world, and in most corporations, you have limited time to secure talent for an open position or you run the risk of losing the headcount. There may well exist an American worker with the skillset you are looking for. But they may not be applying for your job in that timeframe. Or maybe they apply, but do not hold up in the interview process. H1Bs in these cases indeed serve to supplement the applicant pool. And in this very common case, they are often chosen not because they are cheaper or will work like slaves, but because they fill the need of the company at the time, and yes, often prove to be superior to other candidates in the pool.

If H1Bs served as cheap alternatives to US candidates, you would find a sizeable discrepancy in their wages relative to that of the local population, and that is simply not the case.

Now if the question is whether the presence of H1Bs overall bring down salaries on a Macro scale, the answer is of course yes as a matter of simple supply and demand. However, looking at the big picture, that increased talent pool also makes the US the prime place for companies to set up their operations and hire from, and is a reason why US companies are more competitive in general.