Backlash grows in US over foreign worker visas

[Engineer]

No, I don't care. I have spent a good many hours talking to you on a forum about something I don't care about. The only thing that makes us different is that one of us cares...

The problem is not that one side cares and the other dosent, I just look at things beyond the initial impact. Do you honestly think that I want to hurt anyone? What I have been saying, is that I think the best way to help not only the middle class, but everyone is to do things differently than what you advocate. I try and keep my points factual, and formulate my arguments coherently, and you come back with "you hate the middle class". I asked you multiple times to back up your statements on multiple threads, and you never respond. I though it was because you were busy, but it sure does not seem that way now.

You haven't shown me one thing that will convince me that the middle class is somehow better...not one thing. I've spent 20 years going in and out of factories and watching them close to be sent to Mexico and China. How about we gather the phone numbers of those people up and see if they are doing better? People who had worked there for decades and had their pensions pulled, the wages cut to the bone (if they could get something after they all pulled out). People who were laid off for a few months, called back in to be told that the plant is closing and that, because they were laid off several months back, they get ZERO severance, regardless that some of them had given 30 years to the company. I never said one damn time that you hate the middle class, but you did say that I want to fuck the foreigners. Why, because I want US workers to have jobs before importing them to replace the US jobs?

Those foreign workers who you want to fuck so badly will still keep their skills.

Based on your thoughts, I'm sure you would love to walk into those closing factories and tell the productions workers, engineers, skilled trades people, managers, etc. that hey, this is all for the better. Everything will be fine. I'm sure they will really be receptive to your views that they will be better off in the long run and that you really, really 'care' for their futures....really.

From the looks of the US economy for MOST people, it isn't fine and your theories aren't doing jack shit except concentrating wealth at the top.

 

[realibrad]

You haven't shown me one thing that will convince me that the middle class is somehow better...not one thing. I've spent 20 years going in and out of factories and watching them close to be sent to Mexico and China. How about we gather the phone numbers of those people up and see if they are doing better? People who had worked there for decades and had their pensions pulled, the wages cut to the bone (if they could get something after they all pulled out). People who were laid off for a few months, called back in to be told that the plant is closing and that, because they were laid off several months back, they get ZERO severance, regardless that some of them had given 30 years to the company. I never said one damn time that you hate the middle class, but you did say that I want to fuck the foreigners. Why, because I want US workers to have jobs before importing them to replace the US jobs?

So what have I been doing with all the crap I have been saying, if not supporting my argument on what should be done for the US workers? Here I thought I was supporting my argument that protecting some jobs was going to hurt the overall economy, but I guess you know my motives better than I do.

http://forums.anandtech.com/showthread.php?p=36489842&highlight=#post36489842

Check out that thread, and you can easily see where I'm trying to argue what I think will make the workers best off.

You seem to think that because I see some jobs ending and am ok with that, that I dont care. I just understand that jobs will be destroyed, but new jobs will be created. I am ok with people that lost jobs in candle making business, when electricity came along. Jobs being lost is not always a bad thing. I dont see any way to shield anyone from foreign competition with out a net negative, so I think embracing it is a better plan, rather than fighting something, when that fight makes you worse offer then embracing.

Based on your thoughts, I'm sure you would love to walk into those closing factories and tell the productions workers, engineers, skilled trades people, managers, etc. that hey, this is all for the better. Everything will be fine.

From the looks of the US economy for MOST people, it isn't fine and your theories aren't doing jack shit except concentrating wealth at the top.

Why do you think I would enjoy some people losing their jobs? What have I said that makes you think I would be happy when some people suffer? I just dont agree that everyone else should suffer because things change and some people dont want to be hurt. Im for social safety nets for that reason, but I'm not for everyone subsidizing middle class lifestyles at the cost of everyone else.

 

[Engineer]

Why do you think I would enjoy some people losing their jobs? What have I said that makes you think I would be happy when some people suffer? I just dont agree that everyone else should suffer because things change and some people dont want to be hurt. Im for social safety nets for that reason, but I'm not for everyone subsidizing middle class lifestyles at the cost of everyone else.

You won't have to worry about them anyway, it will be the poor and the upper class soon enough. The middle will be just a bookmark in history.

Not smart enough to realize by sending the middle class to the poor and lower class ranks, you'll be subsidizing them far more (assuming you have a job) than you would were they still be working here in better paying jobs with benefits.

I've come to the conclusion that it's time to end this...permanently. I've learned in life that 'you never argue with an idiot....they will bring you down to their level and beat you with experience".

It's no longer 'good day'..it's good bye.

 

[HumblePie]

This is like 10 year old news. Seriously. Anyone in this industry knows exactly what much of the industry for IT work is doing.

It has bitten a few companies in the ass those as much of what they get from India quality wise isn't nearly as good. However, much of the IT work they want isn't exactly quality based either.

 

[realibrad]

You won't have to worry about them anyway, it will be the poor and the upper class soon enough. The middle will be just a bookmark in history.

Not smart enough to realize by sending the middle class to the poor and lower class ranks, you'll be subsidizing them far more (assuming you have a job) than you would were they still be working here in better paying jobs with benefits.

I've come to the conclusion that it's time to end this...permanently. I've learned in life that 'you never argue with an idiot....they will bring you down to their level and beat you with experience".

It's no longer 'good day'..it's good bye.

"America is going down the shitter!"

Oh why, what happened?

"Terrible things happened"

How can we undo it?

"You have to do something that seems counterintuitive!"

I don't think that will work though.

"You are an idiot, and you hate those who I want to help. You will never understand"

There isint a way for you to explain it to me?

"No, because you are an Idiot, and people like you are the reason we will fail"

So you dont want to try and maybe save it?

"Nope because you are an idiot"

Oh, ok then.

 

[1prophet]

Every successful person flatters himself on his success at competition, except that is, when competition becomes a real threat. We should have badges for folk who have jobs that others would gladly fill for less money, entitlement whiner badges.

Is that what today's Democrats call unions in private while not publicly soliciting their vote,

these same democrats are more than happy to solicit the vote of illegal supporters and recent foreigners because they don't have to work for it as hard as they once did for the unions and the middle class,

who back in the day help make this country the great economic superpower it once was while looking out for the worker at the same time.

 

[Engineer]

who back in the day help make this country the great economic superpower it once was while looking out for the worker at the same time.

Henry Ford?

 

[realibrad]

Henry Ford?

Ford paid his people more, because it made him more money. Not because those people bought his cars, but because before he offered twice the going rate, he had a turnover of 370%. He was having to pay many more people as backups because so many quit. By paying the workers more, turnover decreased, and he had to higher fewer people. He got better skilled workers, at a lower overall cost.

He may have said he did it to allow for his people to buy his cars, but in reality, it was to save him money on labor.

http://www.newsday.com/opinion/colu...5-a-day-just-to-be-nice-lane-filler-1.6629767

 

[momeNt]

Ford paid his people more, because it made him more money. Not because those people bought his cars, but because before he offered twice the going rate, he had a turnover of 370%. He was having to pay many more people as backups because so many quit. By paying the workers more, turnover decreased, and he had to higher fewer people. He got better skilled workers, at a lower overall cost.

He may have said he did it to allow for his people to buy his cars, but in reality, it was to save him money on labor.

http://www.newsday.com/opinion/colu...5-a-day-just-to-be-nice-lane-filler-1.6629767

Disgusting. Saving money at every turn.

 

[Jeff7]

This is like 10 year old news. Seriously. Anyone in this industry knows exactly what much of the industry for IT work is doing.

It has bitten a few companies in the ass those as much of what they get from India quality wise isn't nearly as good. However, much of the IT work they want isn't exactly quality based either.

Or to China.
We've got a piece of equipment at work that's from a German company. They too fell for the allure of cheap Chinese labor, both for manufacture of some of the machine and for the software. It's buggy and poorly-translated, the manual's a few years behind the software, and the support isn't too good, in part simply due to the time zone difference. Even the field service techs don't understand why certain features come and go between versions.

 

[shady28]

http://news.yahoo.com/backlash-stirs-us-against-foreign-worker-visas-135208422--finance.html



So we're bringing in 'skilled' people because we have a shortage yet we have our citizens 'train' them and then the same citizens are let go?



Nice. We have tech. openings and they aren't even posted here? The US worker didn't even get a chance.

I guess it's not only the 'human garbage' (per one of the smug people here) workers (like manufacturing, etc) that are getting outsourced. Ah hell, we can all sit at home, collect government checks and never work again and we import our way to prosperity...in both items and labor. Life will be a paradise.

and our dumbass Senate (both Democrats and Republicans - just like so called 'free trade') decided that we need even more while at the same time stripping out language that we must look at US candidates first? I guess the top 'job creators' need more talent and more money to create more jobs.....but not for US citizens. They are too expensive and need not apply (except for a credit card to buy the stuff - must buy the stuff).

First of all, Fuck Harley Davidson. I think I'm going to print the first couple paragraphs of that article and litter a couple of Harley rider hangouts next weekend.

Second of all -

The reason this came up was because the " BI PARTISAN " immigration reform included a huge increase in the H1B visa program.

From the article :
"An immigration bill passed in the U.S. Senate last year would have increased the number of annually available H-1B visas to 180,000 while raising fees and increasing oversight, although language was removed that would have required all companies to consider qualified U.S. workers before foreign workers are hired.


The House never acted on the measure. With immigration reform considered dead this year in Congress, President Barack Obama last week declared he will use executive actions to address some changes. "


I'm sorry but fuck all of these people. Democrats, Republicans, it doesn't matter, they are all the same. And fuck all the people who are too stupid to not know that by now.

 

[Mani]

This Harley chick didn't get replaced because it was cheaper. She got replaced because the guy replacing her was better. A company like H-D is not going to go out and sponsor an H1B costing thousands in fees and paperwork to save money or boost US immigration statistics. The fact is that we have a bunch of fat, entitled, lazy slobs in this country that don't work like foreigners do despite having a fraction of the education and skillset.

 

[cubby1223]

Henry Ford?

Ford had to raise wages not because he was such a grand fellow, but because his business structure demanded it. Prior to the assembly line, if 90% of your workers show up in a given day, roughly 90% of the daily work got accomplished. Now with the assembly line, if only 90% of the workers show up, closer to 0% of the daily work gets accomplished.

That's why wages went up.

 

[shady28]

This Harley chick didn't get replaced because it was cheaper. She got replaced because the guy replacing her was better. A company like H-D is not going to go out and sponsor an H1B costing thousands in fees and paperwork to save money or boost US immigration statistics. The fact is that we have a bunch of fat, entitled, lazy slobs in this country that don't work like foreigners do despite having a fraction of the education and skillset.

You have absolutely no fucking clue what you are talking about, you're just repeating some bullshit political line that you swallowed completely.

Work in IT in a big company and you will see H1Bs constantly. They are not great. They are not even good. They're bare minimum. They put no thought into anything, they are just cheap. And the H1B is only the start, a few H1B people come in and "learn" something then train a whole slew of people back in India.

If these people are so hard working and so smart, why is their country a shit hole? You would think they would have produced so much wealth and prosperity from their hard work and higher intellect that they would never want to come here. Seems like just the opposite happened.

 

[Engineer]

You have absolutely no fucking clue what you are talking about, you're just repeating some bullshit political line that you swallowed completely.

Work in IT in a big company and you will see H1Bs constantly. They are not great. They are not even good. They're bare minimum. They put no thought into anything, they are just cheap. And the H1B is only the start, a few H1B people come in and "learn" something then train a whole slew of people back in India.

If these people are so hard working and so smart, why is their country a shit hole? You would think they would have produced so much wealth and prosperity from their hard work and higher intellect that they would never want to come here. Seems like just the opposite happened.

Thank you!

 

[Fanatical Meat]

You have absolutely no fucking clue what you are talking about, you're just repeating some bullshit political line that you swallowed completely.

Work in IT in a big company and you will see H1Bs constantly. They are not great. They are not even good. They're bare minimum. They put no thought into anything, they are just cheap. And the H1B is only the start, a few H1B people come in and "learn" something then train a whole slew of people back in India.

If these people are so hard working and so smart, why is their country a shit hole? You would think they would have produced so much wealth and prosperity from their hard work and higher intellect that they would never want to come here. Seems like just the opposite happened.

Wait until software defined networks take over

 

[MongGrel]

You haven't shown me one thing that will convince me that the middle class is somehow better...not one thing. I've spent 20 years going in and out of factories and watching them close to be sent to Mexico and China. How about we gather the phone numbers of those people up and see if they are doing better? People who had worked there for decades and had their pensions pulled, the wages cut to the bone (if they could get something after they all pulled out). People who were laid off for a few months, called back in to be told that the plant is closing and that, because they were laid off several months back, they get ZERO severance, regardless that some of them had given 30 years to the company. I never said one damn time that you hate the middle class, but you did say that I want to fuck the foreigners. Why, because I want US workers to have jobs before importing them to replace the US jobs?



Based on your thoughts, I'm sure you would love to walk into those closing factories and tell the productions workers, engineers, skilled trades people, managers, etc. that hey, this is all for the better. Everything will be fine. I'm sure they will really be receptive to your views that they will be better off in the long run and that you really, really 'care' for their futures....really.

From the looks of the US economy for MOST people, it isn't fine and your theories aren't doing jack shit except concentrating wealth at the top.

Hell, I can still drive up to the Midwest where I went through my Tool & Die apprenticeship 30 years ago and there are hundreds of thousands of higher end trade skill jobs were shut down and shipped over seas.

Guide Lamp (Very Large GM Factory at the time), about 15 Delco Remy Plants, Borg Warner Gear, I could list many more.

It's sad just driving around up there looking at em from 30 years ago and seeing them either with broken windows or bulldozed.

About like Detroit these days, the whole Midwest was raped.

VICE on HBO Debrief: American Scrap


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Os-2SMPuyuY


HBO Documentary Films: The Last Truck: Closing of a GM Plant Preview (HBO)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=50qSV_F-nAE

 

[Engineer]

Hell, I can still drive up to the Midwest where I went through my Tool & Die apprenticeship 30 years ago and there are hundreds of thousands of higher end trade skill jobs were shut down and shipped over seas.

Guide Lamp (Very Large GM Factory at the time), about 15 Delco Remy Plants, Borg Warner Gear, I could list many more.

It's sad just driving around up there looking at em from 30 years ago and seeing them either with broken windows or bulldozed.

About like Detroit these days, the whole Midwest was raped.

VICE on HBO Debrief: American Scrap


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Os-2SMPuyuY


HBO Documentary Films: The Last Truck: Closing of a GM Plant Preview (HBO)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=50qSV_F-nAE

Just remember, those people are better off now. We have people here who tell us that so it must be true.

 

[Orignal Earl]

Ford had to raise wages not because he was such a grand fellow, but because his business structure demanded it. Prior to the assembly line, if 90% of your workers show up in a given day, roughly 90% of the daily work got accomplished. Now with the assembly line, if only 90% of the workers show up, closer to 0% of the daily work gets accomplished.

That's why wages went up.

TIL the first assembly line was used in England in 1853. Then Henry borrowed from that and the meatpacking assembly lines in Chicago

 

[HamburgerBoy]

You have absolutely no fucking clue what you are talking about, you're just repeating some bullshit political line that you swallowed completely.

Work in IT in a big company and you will see H1Bs constantly. They are not great. They are not even good. They're bare minimum. They put no thought into anything, they are just cheap. And the H1B is only the start, a few H1B people come in and "learn" something then train a whole slew of people back in India.

If these people are so hard working and so smart, why is their country a shit hole? You would think they would have produced so much wealth and prosperity from their hard work and higher intellect that they would never want to come here. Seems like just the opposite happened.

lololol, way to reveal the extremes to which you'll take your racism and xenophobia.

 

[Fox5]

There's a shortage of experienced people with $100K degrees willing to work for $40K/year.

It's not all STEM that there's a shortage of.

All physical engineering seems to have moved overseas. Software engineering seems to be the only in demand, widely available STEM job now.
Even then, you can get H1B workers for $20-$30/hour for grunt work.
Now, a highly qualified software developer will make 6 figures, regardless of origin, but that's the top 10%.

 

[Mani]

You have absolutely no fucking clue what you are talking about, you're just repeating some bullshit political line that you swallowed completely.

Work in IT in a big company and you will see H1Bs constantly. They are not great. They are not even good. They're bare minimum. They put no thought into anything, they are just cheap. And the H1B is only the start, a few H1B people come in and "learn" something then train a whole slew of people back in India.

If these people are so hard working and so smart, why is their country a shit hole? You would think they would have produced so much wealth and prosperity from their hard work and higher intellect that they would never want to come here. Seems like just the opposite happened.

Are you done with your tantrum? Just to give you some context, I hire and fire people at a Fortune 20 company. And I manage people that hire and fire people, including in IT. I've seen the absolute gamut. And let me tell you, the reason why companies keep pursuing H1Bs is because it makes business sense. Not just because they are cheaper, but because they are lower risk. If you hire one, you are usually not having to fire him 3 months later. You usually aren't going to deal with lazy asses. Or a sexual harrassment lawsuit. Or "sick leave" that happens to coincide with every other weekend. Or shitty attitudes. The list goes on. There are obviously exceptions, but people that hire H1Bs are not idiots. There are reasons in line with those of the business that drive those decisions. If you honestly believe that companies hire H1Bs purely because they are cheap or that they just love screwing over the American worker, you flat out need to get your head examined.

The state of India has to do with a litany of historical and geopolitical factors many of which date back over a century, and almost nothing to do with the current work ethic and intellect of their workforce. But hey, why put an ounce of thought or research into things before posting? This is ATPN after all.

 

[Mani]

Thank you!

You guys should seriously listen to yourselves. Really. Try to separate yourselves from your xenophobia, emotional knee-jerks, perhaps your bitterness over being passed up for an IT job, and try to look at the situation objectively. There must be a reason why companies all over this country hire H1Bs over and over again. It's probably not because they hate America. or American workers. Or just love having foreigners run their IT. Maybe, just maybe, they see something you guys don't.

Or maybe you guys are the brilliant ones and those decisionmakers that somehow all got to their positions are just complete imbeciles.

 

[Engineer]

You guys should seriously listen to yourselves. Really. Try to separate yourselves from your xenophobia, emotional knee-jerks, perhaps your bitterness over being passed up for an IT job, and try to look at the situation objectively. There must be a reason why companies all over this country hire H1Bs over and over again. It's probably not because they hate America. or American workers. Or just love having foreigners run their IT. Maybe, just maybe, they see something you guys don't.

Or maybe you guys are the brilliant ones and those decisionmakers that somehow all got to their positions are just complete imbeciles.

LOL. I don't work in IT so try again.

2nd, it's all about money. Always has been. If you can't find good American workers in this economy, you're a shitty hiring manager. The reason you can't find 'good' American workers is because you have an option to hire CHEAP foreign ones and bring them right to your door.

Another idiot joins the ATPN crowd.

 

[michal1980]

Are you done with your tantrum? Just to give you some context, I hire and fire people at a Fortune 20 company. And I manage people that hire and fire people, including in IT. I've seen the absolute gamut. And let me tell you, the reason why companies keep pursuing H1Bs is because it makes business sense. Not just because they are cheaper, but because they are lower risk. If you hire one, you are usually not having to fire him 3 months later. You usually aren't going to deal with lazy asses. Or a sexual harrassment lawsuit. Or "sick leave" that happens to coincide with every other weekend. Or shitty attitudes. The list goes on. There are obviously exceptions, but people that hire H1Bs are not idiots. There are reasons in line with those of the business that drive those decisions. If you honestly believe that companies hire H1Bs purely because they are cheap or that they just love screwing over the American worker, you flat out need to get your head examined.

The state of India has to do with a litany of historical and geopolitical factors many of which date back over a century, and almost nothing to do with the current work ethic and intellect of their workforce. But hey, why put an ounce of thought or research into things before posting? This is ATPN after all.

of course workers that can be deported are more likely to be submissive to abusive management. Cant believe a racist like you works in HR