Bachelors Degree, Has it lost its edge and its value?

[MagnusTheBrewer]

Trades are great places for jobs, however it's not the American culture. We stamp it in our kids heads that being successful means making 6 figures+/year and being in an office. How many people do you know that tell their kids "I want you to grow up and be a welder/machinist"? Not many. Even of parents in those trades. They want "better for their kids" which has driven people into college and degrees.

My Dad is a mason. He comes home in the middle of the summer sunburnt, drenched in sweat, and just destroyed after working in the brutal heat in humidity. He's told me on no small number of occassions that I made the right move for an office job.

See, we STILL have to overcome society's expectations and the outright lies fed us by teachers, businesses, peers and, parents. Being Scandinavian, hard work was never an issue, it was/is an expected part of life. When I grew up in the 50's, the outlook was "only dumb kids went to trade schools." Not much has changed except that college is currently a poor investment and, being dumb and able to complete a trade school was NEVER true.

But, but, but, you have to get the "right" degree or, get a degree from the "right" school! Bull shit, putting yourself in that kind of debt for the hope that you'll earn the kind of money you need to pay off the loans and make your fantasy of retiring at 45 so, you can "begin living" is just plain foolish.

"Well, that doesn't apply to me. I've got a free ride (parents, scholarship, institution)," Congrats! Just realize you ARE in the vast minority and viewing college as a given, is in reality just an avoidance of tough decisions which most haven't even begun to think about. Don't even get me started on the folks who view college as "a chance to expand their horizons and grow up," I just may be sick.

 

[gorcorps]

Even on useful degrees, tuition seems to have increased more than average wage so the value has gone down a bit. In general though there are a lot more kids getting meaningless degrees just because they think (and most of society thinks) they should. So you see a lot more degree holding people not able to find good jobs which artifically deflates the value of degrees.

Then those degree holders think they're entitled to 60k right off the bat just because they graduated so they aren't taking the one job they're offered. So now you have a flood of young folks complaining about work when there might actually BE some work out there, you just have to set aside your inflated sense of entitlement and prove your worth for a year or two.

 

[Texashiker]

Something else we are not taking into consideration is competition from overseas nations where the government subsidizes higher education.

Why should a company hire a U.S. citizen at $20 an hour, when the company can get a foreign worker for $10.

 

[DisgruntledVirus]

Even on useful degrees, tuition seems to have increased more than average wage so the value has gone down a bit. In general though there are a lot more kids getting meaningless degrees just because they think (and most of society thinks) they should. So you see a lot more degree holding people not able to find good jobs which artifically deflates the value of degrees.

Then those degree holders think they're entitled to 60k right off the bat just because they graduated so they aren't taking the one job they're offered. So now you have a flood of young folks complaining about work when there might actually BE some work out there, you just have to set aside your inflated sense of entitlement and prove your worth for a year or two.

This is exactly where I'm at. Knowing the certs and the degree, that $60k mark is the national median for that cert regardless of the degree. With that being said, I look around at my peers and see that many of them will graduate with the same degree, same certs, but have been working for 1-2 years in that field already. That puts them at the advantage, and means I would have to work for less since I don't have the experience. Even though I have a solid 5+ years of work experience (and a pretty good resume, just not technical stuff) at a fortune 100 company with numerous technical projects that I've worked on. However they are in a different realm of IT so really the experience I have amounts to 6 months during an internship 3 years ago. I.e. meaningless at this point.

However I see many people that are really not that different from me thinking they will walk out of school and the following monday start a $60k/yr+ job. Bachelors are now commonplace. It's like that HS teacher who at commencement said "look there are 38,000 other HS that each has the 'top student', you aren't special." Bachelors are no different. Get a job and use that experience to leverage getting a better job. You have to work for a better job. Employers haven't needed to go plead and beg for a fresh grad for a long time, and since 2008 even less so. You will be fighting people who have many more years of experience, the same credentials, and/or know people in the company already. What do you bring to the table? A piece of paper and no, or little, relevant work experience. Great. I'll pay you enough to live on while I work you to the bone. Or if you aren't ok with that, I'll just get this guy over here in the exact same position who will be cool with that.

 

[Exterous]

So now you have a flood of young folks complaining about work when there might actually BE some work out there, you just have to set aside your inflated sense of entitlement and prove your worth for a year or two.

To be fair I expect at least some of it is not entitlement so much as "Holy shit - thats my monthly student loan payment??!!"

 

[Fritzo]

I think a BS degree is aptly named....it's BS.

I never finished by 4 year degree because of getting recruited into a good job before graduating. Now every company thinks you need a Masters in order to make more than $25000/year.

Truthfully I look at a person's skill-set and personality a lot more than their education.

 

[DisgruntledVirus]

Something else we are not taking into consideration is competition from overseas nations where the government subsidizes higher education.

Why should a company hire a U.S. citizen at $20 an hour, when the company can get a foreign worker for $10.

That depends on the field we are talking about. Many fields it would end up costing the same or more due to the expense of importing workers and the visas and all of that.

 

[ShawnD1]

It might have lost its edge but given that more and more companies are requiring a Bachelors degree to even review your application, I'd say it is more valuable than ever. My company was even trying to require a BS or BA for admin assistant jobs, which was beyond ridiculous. But hey, I guess General Studies and Women's Studies majors need jobs.

I think I would be less likely to hire someone who has a degree in woman studies. That means they would be more likely to file a complaint when I try to sexually harass them.

 

[Paul98]

Bachelors degree still have their value, the problem is that so many other people around you have a degree also. So if you want to stand out not only do you need that but experience or a higher level degree.

It also depends on the industry you are in. Just like anything it depends on the situation.

With that being said how our entire system is setup, and how the rewards come. We lose many of the very smart people who could make breakthroughs and really change and improve things for everyone. We lose them to high paying business, financial,... degrees. Where they end up benefiting a few and only in a financial way. But that is a totally different topic.

 

[TwiceOver]

I didn't read the whole thread so my opinion has probably already been similarly stated, but I think all degrees have somewhat lost their luster. Now that everyone has one you really have to have more to stand out, and I'm not talking a "master's". Experience, and a solid resume will get you pretty far without a super duper fancy degree.

 

[unokitty]

I think I would be less likely to hire someone who has a degree in woman studies. That means they would be more likely to file a complaint when I try to sexually harass them.

You could probably even generalize that more and say that any major that ends in "studies" is likely not worth the effort.

Uno

 

[BurnItDwn]

The % of people with degrees have gone up so those with them are no longer "special."

That said, most employers want experience since a kid fresh out of college is still a kid where as a veteran (degree or not) is an experienced professional.

 

[vi edit]

That said, most employers want experience since a kid fresh out of college is still a kid where as a veteran (degree or not) is an experienced professional.

Employers simply want the easiest employee they can drag and drop into a position, pay the lowest salary they can pay, and spend the least amount of time and effort on training that they can. That's a large appeal of "hiring within". Internal moves come cheaper since it's a lateral or small salary bump to move them and they already know the the system.

 

[BurnItDwn]

Employers simply want the easiest employee they can drag and drop into a position, pay the lowest salary they can pay, and spend the least amount of time and effort on training that they can. That's a large appeal of "hiring within". Internal moves come cheaper since it's a lateral or small salary bump to move them and they already know the the system.

Yea, I agree with this quite a bit ... after all I am a result of the "hiring within" process .... (same company since 1996 started out part time in high school as a pharmacy tech, I've changed jobs and titles around a half a dozen times since then. That said, I have gotten some pretty good pay bumps over the years ... The best one being over 20K salary increase after reorg....

 

[OverVolt]

I've talked to alot of friends about this. I've concluded that a college degree in 2010 is the same as the manufacturing boom in 1970. In 1970 everyone was going to trade school at the same time to go into manufacturing, sound familiar?

Ultimately what happened is the glut of people with the same skills were screwed over. Their jobs got shipped overseas.

I think its inevitable the same will happen here. I see articles like this one:

China: World's largest supplier of educated workers
http://money.cnn.com/2012/06/15/news/economy/china-educated-workers/index.htm

and can pick them apart. Stuff like

China is also churning out far more science, technology, engineering and mathematics grads, giving it a leg up in some of the world's fastest growing sectors.
In 2008, only 14% of U.S. grads earned degrees in those specialties, whereas 42% of China's college grads did so.

I think you can tell the school system has degraded here by increasing access. The students are stupid and don't take advantage of the opportunity, it frustrates the teachers who take it out on their students, I see it almost everyday.

We have an engineer graduation problem, and a quality problem. Not so in other countries. If manufacturing can be outsourced, the R&D and brains of the operation can be outsourced even easier with the web. Since we are 19th globally in education, and getting spanked by the likes of China, Japan, etc. I see this ending the same way it did when manufacturing in 1970 was THE thing to do.

 

[IndyColtsFan]

See, we STILL have to overcome society's expectations and the outright lies fed us by teachers, businesses, peers and, parents. Being Scandinavian, hard work was never an issue, it was/is an expected part of life. When I grew up in the 50's, the outlook was "only dumb kids went to trade schools." Not much has changed except that college is currently a poor investment and, being dumb and able to complete a trade school was NEVER true.

Granted, in this economy, it would seem to be a poor investment and even in good economies, many degrees are a very poor investment (I'm looking at you, degrees with "Studies" at the end of their program name).

But, but, but, you have to get the "right" degree or, get a degree from the "right" school! Bull shit, putting yourself in that kind of debt for the hope that you'll earn the kind of money you need to pay off the loans and make your fantasy of retiring at 45 so, you can "begin living" is just plain foolish.

Anyone going to school for the purpose of retiring by 45 is an idiot.

You overlook the simple fact that not everyone is the same, and some people have career interests which will REQUIRE a college degree. You're not going to be an engineer or a doctor without degrees.

Going $100K into debt for a degree in Women's Studies is stupid. Going $100K in debt for engineering is more understandable, though I'd caution against that level of debt for anything except an MD.

"Well, that doesn't apply to me. I've got a free ride (parents, scholarship, institution)," Congrats! Just realize you ARE in the vast minority and viewing college as a given, is in reality just an avoidance of tough decisions which most haven't even begun to think about. Don't even get me started on the folks who view college as "a chance to expand their horizons and grow up," I just may be sick.

I have to agree here. People who think that college is primarily about "discovering yourself" or "expanding your horizons" are idiots. True, that should be a beneficial side effect of the experience, but first and foremost, people need to look at college as an investment and as with most investments, people should look for the highest return on investment.

 

[MagnusTheBrewer]

I've talked to alot of friends about this. I've concluded that a college degree in 2010 is the same as the manufacturing boom in 1970. In 1970 everyone was going to trade school at the same time to go into manufacturing, sound familiar?

Ultimately what happened is the glut of people with the same skills were screwed over. Their jobs got shipped overseas.

I'm not sure where you grew up but, for the Midwest, in 1970 everyone was NOT going to trade school. They were going to college, trying to find work with defense contractors or, thinking about moving to Canada.

 

[unokitty]

In 1970 everyone was going to trade school at the same time to go into manufacturing, sound familiar?

Ultimately what happened is the glut of people with the same skills were screwed over. Their jobs got shipped overseas.

Not to digress too much, but I got drafted in '69. And shipped overseas in '70...

Back on topic, I only knew one person who accepted an apprenticeship from my High School Class. And his dad owned the Machine Shop. If my memory serves me correctly, everyone was expected to go to College...

Uno

 

[SirStev0]

bs or ba?

 

[GTaudiophile]

As someone who has hired both full-time positions and interns, education is perhaps the last thing I/we look at it.

The first things I/we look at:
1. Does the cover letter address specific tasks mentioned in the job description?
2. Did the applicant visit the website to get a firm grasp of the company's mission and goals and tailor the cover letter accordingly?

Secondly, we look at the resume to see if 1) was it written to address the sought-after skills and 2) whether the applicant has an appropriate employment history. But we hardly look at these factors if the first two questions above are not addressed.

Finally, we look at any supporting documentation, portfolios, references, etc.

In a very recent example, around 80% of the applicants failed to even address the first two primary questions above.

 

[jlarsson]

We have an engineer graduation problem, and a quality problem. Not so in other countries. If manufacturing can be outsourced, the R&D and brains of the operation can be outsourced even easier with the web. Since we are 19th globally in education, and getting spanked by the likes of China, Japan, etc. I see this ending the same way it did when manufacturing in 1970 was THE thing to do.

http://nces.ed.gov/programs/digest/d10/figures/fig_15.asp?referrer=figures

I figured I'd put some numbers behind your comment. It's telling that we have more people graduating with degrees in Psychology (or visual/performing arts) than engineering.

 

[gorcorps]

To be fair I expect at least some of it is not entitlement so much as "Holy shit - thats my monthly student loan payment??!!"

What kind of terrible financial aid departments do people have? When I took out loans, my advisor told me very close to what I'd be looking at paying when I graduated if I didn't pay any during school. If student loan payments are a surprise, you were not informed well enough to be signing the paperwork.

I'd have to think that this is the exception, right? Surely I can't be in the MINORITY with actually knowing what I would be paying after I graduated (updated every year of course depending on how much extra I needed to take).

 

[gorcorps]

As someone who has hired both full-time positions and interns, education is perhaps the last thing I/we look at it.

The first things I/we look at:
1. Does the cover letter address specific tasks mentioned in the job description?
2. Did the applicant visit the website to get a firm grasp of the company's mission and goals and tailor the cover letter accordingly?

Secondly, we look at the resume to see if 1) was it written to address the sought-after skills and 2) whether the applicant has an appropriate employment history. But we hardly look at these factors if the first two questions above are not addressed.

Finally, we look at any supporting documentation, portfolios, references, etc.

In a very recent example, around 80% of the applicants failed to even address the first two primary questions above.

At the risk of straying OT, this is another topic that concerns me too. Every company (or even every hiring person, HR or otherwise) has different things they look for. You say you want a cover letter, and that it's properly adapted to the company, where the majority of people I've handed resumes to in person take that letter off and toss it. I asked somebody once about it and they said "I wish people would stop using these cover letters. Just more fluffy garbage to sort through when I really just need your job, education, and project history."

 

[Aikouka]

1. Does the cover letter address specific tasks mentioned in the job description?
2. Did the applicant visit the website to get a firm grasp of the company's mission and goals and tailor the cover letter accordingly?

I really don't like writing cover letters. They always feel so dishonest, because it seems like I'm making myself sound so much more eager for the job than I am. I hate feeling like I'm writing nothing more than a ego-stroking, fluff piece.

"I'd love to work for your company because of blah blah blah."

Honestly, I couldn't care less if it was you or your competitor. You're the one with the open position that will pay me for what I like to do.

 

[Ns1]

I really don't like writing cover letters. They always feel so dishonest, because it seems like I'm making myself sound so much more eager for the job than I am. I hate feeling like I'm writing nothing more than a ego-stroking, fluff piece.

"I'd love to work for your company because of blah blah blah."

Honestly, I couldn't care less if it was you or your competitor. You're the one with the open position that will pay me for what I like to do.

you're doing it wrong.