Question B550 chipset, so AMD joins the dark side after all.

[Shivansps]

I just read the article...

So let me get this straight, this chipset is coming out like a year later, they did not even bother to add CPU PCI-E 4.0 uplink support or to increase the number of sata ports that is ALREADY a problem on every 6 sata B450 motherboard (NVME x4 disables the 2 SOC Sata, thus 6 sata B450 mbs losses 2 sata if NVME is used), and they even dare to futher reduce backguard compatibility?

I was not expecting for the PCI-E lanes FROM the chipset to be 4.0, but only USB 3.2 G2, no more satas, CPU link still 3.0 and the PCI-E lanes 3.0 is beyond disappointing.

 

[rbk123]

B550 isn't AM4? Additionally, 3 generations have already been done. Zen, Zen+, Zen2.

Sigh. B550 is AM4, but if there are AM4 CPU's not supported due to the chipset, what good is that? And Zen, Zen+, Zen2 are 2 generations of Zen.

Of course you already knew both of the above.

 

[Shivansps]

Guys, seriusly, 4 satas is basic entry level stuff, B550 boards are not entry level, the 5 boards AMD showed in the slide all have at least 6 satas.

This means OEM have to use a 3rd party controller or two of these stop working if you use a NVME... they could have at the very least adressed that, if you need to use the satas or not thats personal, SATA SSDs and HDDs are still used belive it not, motherboards in the midrange (both Intel and AMD) usually have more than 4 satas, and thats a fact.

The CPU support is a mess, what will likely happen is that OEMs will support everything(but is not certain), but it makes no sence B550 to have less retro-compatibility than X570, at the very least should be equal to x570. What will happen with A520? it will also limited to Zen 2? or they are going to have better retrocompatibility? this makes no sence. Not to mention AMD is STILL SELLING those CPU/APUs that they are "dropping support" for, the only CPU and APU that are EOL are the Ryzen 1000 and APU 2000... so this is kinda a bad move that they are doing here.

But the worse is the fact B550 was not needed for PCI-E 4.0 and adds nothing to it(other than a price bump), B550 is a minor revision at best, every OEM could had B450 boards with full PCI-E 4.0 support after a PCB revision, but AMD blocked it, blaming the old motherboards.

 

[Hitman928]

Sigh. B550 is AM4, but if there are AM4 CPU's not supported due to the chipset, what good is that? And Zen, Zen+, Zen2 are 2 generations of Zen.

Of course you already knew both of the above.

Where did AMD promise all future AM4 CPU/APU skus would be compatible with all future AM4 motherboards? I'm not aware of any such promise nor am I aware of any such promise of all AM4 motherboards being compatible with 3 generations of Zen architecture. If AMD promised this along the way, I missed it.

Zen, Zen+, and Zen2 are officially three generations of Ryzen which is what the AM4 socket is for.

As others mentioned, there may be b550 boards that do support some overlap of older vs newer gen Ryzen's that aren't on the official AMD chipset support list, but they will have to be creative in getting it to work and take that risk on themselves as there are technical limits that don't make this a simple thing to do.

 

[Hitman928]

Guys, seriusly, 4 satas is basic entry level stuff, B550 boards are not entry level, the 5 boards AMD showed in the slide all have at least 6 satas.

This means OEM have to use a 3rd party controller or two of these stop working if you use a NVME... they could have at the very least adressed that, if you need to use the satas or not thats personal, SATA SSDs and HDDs are still used belive it not, motherboards in the midrange (both Intel and AMD) usually have more than 4 satas, and thats a fact.

The CPU support is a mess, what will likely happen is that OEMs will support everything(but is not certain), but it makes no sence B550 to have less retro-compatibility than X570, at the very least should be equal to x570. What will happen with A520? it will also limited to Zen 2? or they are going to have better retrocompatibility? this makes no sence. Not to mention AMD is STILL SELLING those CPU/APUs that they are "dropping support" for, the only CPU and APU that are EOL are the Ryzen 1000 and APU 2000... so this is kinda a bad move that they are doing here.

But the worse is the fact B550 was not needed for PCI-E 4.0 and adds nothing to it(other than a price bump), B550 is a minor revision at best, every OEM could had B450 boards with full PCI-E 4.0 support after a PCB revision, but AMD blocked it, blaming the old motherboards.

B350 and B450 had the same type of compromise, so I don't know why you are surprised. Again, if you want full fat pcie4 support with wider/faster links through the chipset, there are boards for that, but you're going to pay to get those features.

 

[eek2121]

At this point, I think SATA should be killed. You can now get a single cable for USB 3.1 that connects to USB. Just throw a few USB 3.2 gen 2 ports INSIDE. 😉

I am being serious. We have reached a point where USB has outclassed SATA. We have cables to convert SATA to USB (with power delivery!), lets ditch the SATA ports!

 

[eek2121]

B550 boards haven't actually released yet, I'm pretty sure the next gen desktop APUs will be launching alongside or very shortly after them. B550 boards can still be used for non-APU Zen 2 products.

There's a difference between buying motherboards with low end components and buying motherboards with extra features that you can't use. There are plenty of high quality B450 boards and there are crappy x570 boards. That's not what we're talking about though.

I hope that when AMD switches sockets they up the lane count. One of my biggest issues with non-Threadripper systems is the lack of PCIE lanes.

 

[Hitman928]

I hope that when AMD switches sockets they up the lane count. One of my biggest issues with non-Threadripper systems is the lack of PCIE lanes.

With 1st gen TR having overlap in core count with 1st gen Ryzen I think it made sense to reserve the higher # of lanes for TR, but with 2nd gen TR and especially 3rd gen TR I agree with you. It would be nice not to have to step up to 24 cores just to get more lanes if you don't need so many cores. We'll see what they do.

 

[Shivansps]

At this point, I think SATA should be killed. You can now get a single cable for USB 3.1 that connects to USB. Just throw a few USB 3.2 gen 2 ports INSIDE. 😉

I am being serious. We have reached a point where USB has outclassed SATA. We have cables to convert SATA to USB (with power delivery!), lets ditch the SATA ports!

Remember how long it took to kill off IDE? this is going to take longer. Making all hard disk USB and build them with USB interfaces actually makes sence, as you unify internal and external hard disk development and production.
The problem is, you cant really make SATA to dissapear just like that after so many years of devices produced.

Also thats probably more expensive to do, especially for motherboards and cables.

B350 and B450 had the same type of compromise, so I don't know why you are surprised. Again, if you want full fat pcie4 support with wider/faster links through the chipset, there are boards for that, but you're going to pay to get those features.

I expected something out of this B550 other than a price bump, because PCI-E 4.0 and NVME 4.0 is something that could had been on streets several months ago with B450 and a PCB revision.

 

[VirtualLarry]

Making all hard disk USB and build them with USB interfaces actually makes sence, as you unify internal and external hard disk development and production.

No, it doesn't. The BER (block error rate) for USB is much higher than SATA. IOW, you'll have disk errors (as a "normal" occurrence) WEEKLY.

 

[rbk123]

Where did AMD promise all future AM4 CPU/APU skus would be compatible with all future AM4 motherboards? I'm not aware of any such promise nor am I aware of any such promise of all AM4 motherboards being compatible with 3 generations of Zen architecture. If AMD promised this along the way, I missed it.

Zen, Zen+, and Zen2 are officially three generations of Ryzen which is what the AM4 socket is for.

Dude give it a rest. Those aren’t 3 gens and you know it, nor did I say AMD promised anything. It’s best if you sit a few rounds out and let the adults talk amongst themselves.

 

[Hitman928]

Dude give it a rest. Those aren’t 3 gens and you know it, nor did I say AMD promised anything. It’s best if you sit a few rounds out and let the adults talk amongst themselves.

Funny, I didn't know that "adults" converse by resorting to flimsy personal insults.

It's also funny that all these people think that there's been 3 generations as Ryzen as well.

AMD Ryzen 3000 release date, news and rumors

AMD Ryzen 3rd Generation is finally here

www.techradar.com

AMD Ryzen 3rd Generation is finally here

The AMD 3rd Gen Ryzen Deep Dive Review: 3700X and 3900X Raising The Bar

www.anandtech.com

The AMD 3rd Gen Ryzen Deep Dive Review

https://www.amd.com/en/press-releases/2020-04-21-amd-expands-3rd-gen-amd-ryzen-desktop-processor-family-unleashing

AMD Expands 3rd Gen AMD Ryzen Desktop Processor Family

AMD's Third Generation Ryzen CPUs Are Just Terrific

AMD did it. It produced a ridiculously fast series of CPUs that use a lot less power than their competitors and predecessors while also being cheaper and adding some bonus features, like PCIe 4.0 support, only hardcore PC users need. The new $500 Ryzen 9 3900X and $330 Ryzen 7 3700X deliver on...

gizmodo.com

AMD's Third Generation Ryzen CPUs are Just Terrific

If you acknowledge that AMD never promised anything, what was the point of posting this?

Which then invalidates the claim of AM4 socket support through the 3 generations of Zen. The Intel FB's will love that.

 

[Rigg]

Nevertheless, the fact remains that any B board that comes with more than 4 SATA, two ports are in conflict with the NVME.

There are 4 dedicated 4.0 lanes for NVME directly from the CPU. Only a secondary NVME would effect SATA ports connected to the chipset. What am I missing?

 

[rbk123]

If you acknowledge that AMD never promised anything, what was the point of posting this?

Funny. Put your big brain to work and think who else around here pushes the AM4 advantage over Intel giving everyone the shaft with their if-you-upgrade-next-gen-you-need-a-new motherboard love? Take your time, I think you'll get it eventually.

And, again, you know very well Zen+ wasn't a new generation but for some reason you want to fall on your sword over semantics. Have at it.

 

[Shivansps]

There are 4 dedicated 4.0 lanes for NVME directly from the CPU. Only a secondary NVME would effect SATA ports connected to the chipset. What am I missing?

four lanes, but two of them are shared with the two sata ports coming from the CPU. You can have a x2 NVME and 2 extra satas, but as soon as you use a x4 NVME you loose the two Satas connected to the CPU. Any B350/B450 right now with 6 satas losses two if a x4 NVME is used.

No, it doesn't. The BER (block error rate) for USB is much higher than SATA. IOW, you'll have disk errors (as a "normal" occurrence) WEEKLY.

I dont think that is related to the interface used to transfer data.

 

[Hitman928]

Funny. Put your big brain to work and think who else around here pushes the AM4 advantage over Intel giving everyone the shaft with their if-you-upgrade-next-gen-you-need-a-new motherboard love? Take your time, I think you'll get it eventually.

And, again, you know very well Zen+ wasn't a new generation but for some reason you want to fall on your sword over semantics. Have at it.

I'm sorry, even with my "big brain" I don't follow every poster in every thread in this forum nor do I care to, so why not just come out and say what you are implying I should already know.

As far as generations go, I obviously don't know that Zen+ wasn't a new generation. AMD called it 2nd gen Ryzen, it was widely reported as 2nd gen ryzen, and when the 3000 desktop series launched, everyone called it 3rd gen Ryzen. So instead of repeating yourself over and over, why not show me why I'm wrong and that there haven't been 3 desktop Ryzen generations.

 

[rbk123]

I'm sorry, even with my "big brain"... blah blah Zen+ is a new gen blah blah

Yawn. Play dumb with someone else, I'm not buying it.

 

[Markfw]

Yawn. Play dumb with someone else, I'm not buying it.

He proved he was right, and linked it. You can't read ?

 

[Rigg]

four lanes, but two of them are shared with the two sata ports coming from the CPU. You can have a x2 NVME and 2 extra satas, but as soon as you use a x4 NVME you loose the two Satas connected to the CPU. Any B350/B450 right now with 6 satas losses two if a x4 NVME is used.

I see 2 optional SATA's off the PCH as well. You should be able to get a single M.2 4x4.0 + 6 SATA / dual M.2 2x4.0 + 6 SATA, single M.2 2x4.0 + 8 SATA. You should only be down to 4 SATA if 3.0 PCIE or M.2 expansion slots connected to the PCH are populated. At least that's how I'm reading it. I could be wrong though. That diagram is confusing.

Edit: I think this will work just like x570 only 10 x 3.0 rather than 12 x 4.0 connected by a 4 x uplink. Not only should you get 6 SATA with a single 4x4.0 or Dual 2x4.0 NVME but you should also be able to add a 3rd 4x3.0 M.2 or PCIE device without losing any of the 6 SATA. You can connect all the devices but they will be bandwidth limited by the 4 x 3.0 up-link if used simultaneously.

 

[gdansk]

I didn't expect that X370/B350 would support Ryzen 4000 but I did expect that X470/B450 would. Really disappointed with AMD in this regard.

I'm sure some X570 purchasers are feeling smug right now but odds are I'll still pay less combined for my B450 and B550 board. Feel bad for the environmental waste, however.

 

[DrMrLordX]

I just read the article...
So let me get this straight, this chipset is coming out like a year later

A year later than what? ASMedia did a crap job apparently, and it took them forever and a day to get the chipset launched. Why do you think AMD ditched them for X570? The chipset is nothing more than an I/O die soldered to the board for crying out loud.

they did not even bother to add CPU PCI-E 4.0 uplink support or to increase the number of sata ports that is ALREADY a problem on every 6 sata B450 motherboard (NVME x4 disables the 2 SOC Sata, thus 6 sata B450 mbs losses 2 sata if NVME is used), and they even dare to futher reduce backguard compatibility?

Once again, you're taking your own niche perspective and pretending like it's everyone's perspective. Most people buying/using these boards do not use 4 or even 6 internal SATA devices. Get a grip man.

I was not expecting for the PCI-E lanes FROM the chipset to be 4.0, but only USB 3.2 G2, no more satas, CPU link still 3.0 and the PCI-E lanes 3.0 is beyond disappointing.

Your expectations will never be met.

Not saying it's the case for every person in the world, I rarely use any SATA ports anymore, and even then it's one of them. If a person really needs more than that, they have more options for not much more.

Many never used more than 1-2 SATA ports, and that was when SATA was prevalent. With NVMe that's becoming even more rare. I think the most HDDs I've ever had in one of my own systems was three? Right now I've got two NVMe and one SATA. I could probably move the entire contents of the SATA drive to my Evo but I don't feel like it.

Guys, seriusly, 4 satas is basic entry level stuff, B550 boards are not entry level, the 5 boards AMD showed in the slide all have at least 6 satas.

See above. Stop putting your expectations above those of everyone else. It's like complaining that there aren't enough PCI slots on motherboards these days.

This means OEM have to use a 3rd party controller

If they feel like it?

But the worse is the fact B550 was not needed for PCI-E 4.0

Sorry, but you're dead wrong. To date, the only motherboard chipsets that have supported PCIe 4.0 NVMe storage have been x570. Not a single x470 or x370 with hacked beta UEFI could do that. AT BEST all they could do was offer spotty PCIe 4.0 to the first PCIe slot. To date, NVMe storage is the only thing that can utilize PCIe 4.0 so PCIe 4.0 support on those old board is completely useless.

and adds nothing to it(other than a price bump), B550 is a minor revision at best, every OEM could had B450 boards with full PCI-E 4.0 support after a PCB revision, but AMD blocked it, blaming the old motherboards.

Now you're just slinging horse manure.

 

[Shivansps]

I see 2 optional SATA's off the PCH as well. You should be able to get a single M.2 4x4.0 + 6 SATA / dual M.2 2x4.0 + 6 SATA, single M.2 2x4.0 + 8 SATA. You should only be down to 4 SATA if 3.0 PCIE or M.2 expansion slots connected to the PCH are populated. At least that's how I'm reading it. I could be wrong though. That diagram is confusing.

It is confusing... in general is the same thing as with the B450, because the platform PCI-E lanes number is the same (28) and AMD tends to mix what the chipset provides along with SoC in the slides. So when they say "10 Flexible PCI-E lanes" they are including the 2 from the SoC, so in reality the B550/B450 chipset has 8 flexible PCI-E lanes, SoC provides 16 for the PCI-E, 2x for NVME and 2x flexible (PCIE/SATA), this makes the total of 28.

They did the same with the B450 slides, they listed it as having 6 Satas in the slide, in reality, most stuck with 4 Satas to avoid confusion and the ones with 6 Satas has this issue:
https://download.gigabyte.com/FileList/Manual/mb_manual_b450-aorus-elite_1002_e.pdf
page 17

Look at that, one would think you could have a total of 8 Satas, in reality they are listing SoC on both sides, B450 has 4 Satas.

B550 slide is the same, it has 4 Satas, what you see "2xPCIe or 2 SATAs" is SoC again or they are indicating that 2 of those 4 Satas are flexible as well, actually requiered to provide "2x NVME + 2 Satas".

They are also now saying that you could do "1xNVME + 6 satas", As it does not indicates anything about being 4.0 or 3.0 i belive this is archived by using chipset for PCI-E on the NVME, thus is limited to 3.0. This would become more clear once we can take a look at a B550 motherboard manual, it would be nice if they at least fixed one issue.

 

[tamz_msc]

Apparently Zen 2 support on 300 series boards was something that AMD had to intervene to make it happen. They won't intervene this time around for Zen 3 support on 400 series boards.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1258411872539176960

 

[Shivansps]

A year later than what? ASMedia did a crap job apparently, and it took them forever and a day to get the chipset launched. Why do you think AMD ditched them for X570? The chipset is nothing more than an I/O die soldered to the board for crying out loud.

It is still a year later, since when new motherboards series are launched like this? Who cares who fault it is?

Once again, you're taking your own niche perspective and pretending like it's everyone's perspective. Most people buying/using these boards do not use 4 or even 6 internal SATA devices. Get a grip man.

Why do you care? The competition provides 6 satas in this sector, OEMs try to do the same for AMD. You are talking about MY perpective then you are trying to force how you see things on everyone, again.

Your expectations will never be met.

I expected something better than what we had, sorry ;(

See above. Stop putting your expectations above those of everyone else. It's like complaining that there aren't enough PCI slots on motherboards these days.

What expectations? 4 SATAS is basic A320/H310 stuff man, prove me wrong.

If they feel like it?

Or had to

Sorry, but you're dead wrong. To date, the only motherboard chipsets that have supported PCIe 4.0 NVMe storage have been x570. Not a single x470 or x370 with hacked beta UEFI could do that. AT BEST all they could do was offer spotty PCIe 4.0 to the first PCIe slot. To date, NVMe storage is the only thing that can utilize PCIe 4.0 so PCIe 4.0 support on those old board is completely useless.

No, you are wrong, who is talking about old motherboards? Every oem could have created a revision of a currently existing B450 motherboard and certify it for PCI-E 4.0, AMD did not allowed it, putting the blame on blocking old motherboards to outright block B450 from having it, now i can see why. This dosent fit with your "is asmedia fault" if it was they would have allowed OEMs to do proper PCI-E 4.0 B450 boards.

Now you're just slinging horse manure.

Hang on, you are saying that a PCB revision cant be done now, like it has been done forever? wth

 

[Rigg]

It is confusing... in general is the same thing as with the B450, because the platform PCI-E lanes number is the same (28) and AMD tends to mix what the chipset provides along with SoC in the slides. So when they say "10 Flexible PCI-E lanes" they are including the 2 from the SoC, so in reality the B550/B450 chipset has 8 flexible PCI-E lanes, SoC provides 16 for the PCI-E, 2x for NVME and 2x flexible (PCIE/SATA), this makes the total of 28.

They did the same with the B450 slides, they listed it as having 6 Satas in the slide, in reality, most stuck with 4 Satas to avoid confusion and the ones with 6 Satas has this issue:
https://download.gigabyte.com/FileList/Manual/mb_manual_b450-aorus-elite_1002_e.pdf
page 17

Look at that, one would think you could have a total of 8 Satas, in reality they are listing SoC on both sides, B450 has 4 Satas.

B550 slide is the same, it has 4 Satas, what you see "2xPCIe or 2 SATAs" is SoC again or they are indicating that 2 of those 4 Satas are flexible as well, actually requiered to provide "2x NVME + 2 Satas".

They are also now saying that you could do "1xNVME + 6 satas", As it does not indicates anything about being 4.0 or 3.0 i belive this is archived by using chipset for PCI-E on the NVME, thus is limited to 3.0. This would become more clear once we can take a look at a B550 motherboard manual, it would be nice if they at least fixed one issue.

AMD B550 page says up to 8 SATA. If 6 isn't possible on the PCH that math doesn't work. https://www.amd.com/en/chipsets/b550

I'm pretty sure that 10 x 3.0 lanes can be connected to the PCH while sharing bandwith over the x4 uplink. This is exactly how x570 works only with 12 x 4.0 lanes instead of 10 x 3.0. I have a second NVME and an x4 network card connected to the PCH of my x570 and the motherboard doesn't disable any of it's 8 SATA ports when these expansion slots are populated. Why would gigabyte make a b550 board with 3 M.2 slots and 6 SATA ports if the I/0 was as limited as you suggest?

https://hexus.net/media/uploaded/2019/6/84149e21-86a0-4150-95c7-7bbc48f99b05.png

The x570 slide is laid out the same as the b550 slide.

 

[DrMrLordX]

It is still a year later, since when new motherboards series are launched like this? Who cares who fault it is?

Obviously not you. You want to blame AMD for everyone else's problems. See post by @tamz_msc above. It was AMD that let us use older chipsets with Matisse, period. You are impossible to please.

Why do you care?

You are slamming a company over and over again that is doing its best within reason to accommodate customers. You're doing so on a public forum. It comes across as entitled whining.

The competition provides 6 satas in this sector

Then buy their products.

You are talking about MY perpective then you are trying to force how you see things on everyone, again.

Thanks for accusing me of doing what you are doing. I'm trying to tell you that the vast majority of the market no longer cares how many SATA ports there are on a motherboard. Times are changing.

I expected something better than what we had, sorry ;(

There is nothing better about having more SATA ports when most customers do not need more SATA ports. Especially not if things wind up being more-expensive or less-useful as a consequence.

What expectations? 4 SATAS is basic A320/H310 stuff man, prove me wrong.

SATA is no longer relevant to a growing number of PC users.

The irresistible rise of NVMe means SATA SSD days are numbered – Blocks and Files

SATA interfaces for SSDS are on their way out and the NVMe SSD interface will take over in 2020, according to Eyal Shani, Western Digital’s director, technical product marketing. Speaking at the A3 TechLive conference in London last week, he presented a chart showing price trends for 15K, 10K...

blocksandfiles.com

Or had to

It's a bullet point for OEMs that are infamous for trying to sell you things you don't need.

No, you are wrong, who is talking about old motherboards? Every oem could have created a revision of a currently existing B450 motherboard and certify it for PCI-E 4.0, AMD did not allowed it

That is a lie. You can't even begin to prove that AMD "blocked" anything. Again look at @tamz_msc 's post. Were it up to the OEMs, Matisse never would have worked on those old boards. No PCIe 4.0 for you pal. The OEMs don't want to redo old PCBs with more layers and more-expensive routing for PCIe signals and then try and sell those boards to the public at the same price as the old ones. You are living in a fantasy world.

AMD tried their best to make PCIe 4.0 work on old boards. It was quasi-functional, it didn't cover NVMe storage, and in the end it was not PCI SIG-compliant which meant that AMD couldn't encourage anyone to claim PCIe 4.0 compatibility. The OEMs were NOT going to redo their own boards. And yet you blame AMD?

putting the blame on blocking old motherboards to outright block B450 from having it, now i can see why.

Let's hope you're never on a jury.

This dosent fit with your "is asmedia fault" if it was they would have allowed OEMs to do proper PCI-E 4.0 B450 boards.

OEMS WERE NOT GOING TO DO THAT. ASMedia is irrelevant to THAT discussion, as well. If you want to know why B550 wasn't out last year, you CAN blame ASMedia's incompetence for that. They had enormous trouble getting PCIe 4.0 routing right on their NEW chipset. What makes you think OEMs were doing to do a better job with an older ASMedia chipset?

Hang on, you are saying that a PCB revision cant be done now, like it has been done forever? wth

It has never been done "forever"! Nobody revised old motherboards to make them PCIe 4.0 compliant. Nobody! PCIe 4.0 requires different routing than any previous version of the standard.